White DVDs unreliable in some recorders?
Quoting from my amazon review for Verbatim DVD-R 4.7GB 8X DataLifePlus White Inkjet Printable:
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I would just like to know if you experts out there can think if a logical reason this might happen? Because I sure can't. Thank you. |
There's a number of theoretical reasons, but I don't know that any of them are very practical.
Probably 99% of the "My data disappeared." claims are actually misdiagnosed. The person making the claim generally did not inspect the disc after it was burned (TRT scans, physical inspection, playback/readback usage tests), and is simply assuming the burn was good when in fact it was never any good. So at least 9 times out of 10, I can easily respond with "No it didn't." though only about half of them want to accept this truth. The rest would rather bury their head in the sand, and insist the DVD goblin ate the data. There are ways that discs can degrade "on their own" -- quoted because outside forces are actually at play, most of them environmental or due to lack of proper handling and storage. The most crucial problems are
Paper can theoretically warp the mm-thick polycarbonate substrate layers adversely, as the label is essentially two separate firm layers attached with a bonding layer. And paper itself changes geometry from water absorption, thus passing along it's own warping into the disc shape (flatness %), in addition to physics between layers. It's not too unlike earthquakes and fault lines, if that helps to understand the consequences of friction between rigid objects. If the disc was even marginally inaccurate for whatever reason (like a bad burner used with a good disc, or just a bad disc), then a slight geometry issue would make it unreadable. Storage issues can further damage geometry, as wallet and cheaply made "DVD cases" can warp the polycarbonate. So it could be two geometry-altering issues working tandem. Bad discs are generally not a single issue for an average consumer (any non-archivist), but an accumulated set of problems that push a disc beyond the point of excellence. And while I can explain how water, scratches, etc affects media, ultimately it was the user/consumer that put the disc in those conditions. So it's not really the disc that's to blame, but often the person. (Some may take that as a personal "attack" of some kind, but I'm just as guilty of this, as I store burned CDs in my car, which is a horrible place to keep discs. It's an accepted risk, however, as I want the convenience.) -- Another obvious error is that the DVD burner, player or recorder has aged beyond the ability to read the discs. That happens quite often. That may be the case here, too. And it's very possible to only affect certain types of dye layers, or certain types of reflective layers. In theory, maybe even be unable to penetrate imperfect polycarbonate layers. That's why some discs may work, while others will not. Generally speaking, the cheapest discs are affected, not quality discs recommended as 1st Class on this sites's DVD media review. -- So there's not just one logical reason, but many. :) |
Thank you. This seems to be the moral of the story:
If you seem to be having trouble with certain DVD types or brands, and find a type that works, it might not be your imagination. Try always to buy that precise brand and type. And pray that the manufacturer does not change the process. I actually find it amazing that we are able to maintain 50 "open" or "unfinalized" DVDs. I have no idea how this is made possible. I am not amazed that this has problems. I am more amazed that there are any disc types for which this is relatively problem-free. This seems to be the case. By the way, I've recently discovered that we can easily attach a hard drive to our Dish Network DVR. Only problem is, I don't know if we can specify something equivalent to "long play" (reduced quality) as we do with a DVD recorder. If not, even a terrabyte drive might be more costly than burning to DVDs. If I had my druthers, I would only save the utmost favorite operas, movies and documentaries. The remaining brain candy can always be rented from netfilx, in the rare event anyone wants to see them again. Unfortunately some of my family elders seem to have their meaning in life affected by having all these copies. Although in addition to taking time to find something if we do want to see it again, we are seldom certain that we actually have it, so it's really a joke in my humble opinion. Hmmm. Fortunately my family is not fussy about quality. I think I will consider the following.
PS. So-called "unlimited" online backup like carbonite is not a solution. Quote:
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And then you have some positive changes, too! For example, when Ritek adopted Fuji Oxonol dyes, to create the current RitekF media. Those are really good discs, in our yet-unpublished "2nd Class" that bumps the current 2nd Class back down to a 3rd Class. Not good enough to be archival, but reliable enough that you don't have to worry about an up-to-20% fail rate. Quote:
If you ever wanted to learn about optical media (DVDs, especially), then you came to the right site. :) _________ Quote:
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When I saw "White DVDs" I thought I was going to encounter a thread about Princo DVD-R blanks. :eek:
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Thank you Lord Smurf!
I was hoping not to buy another stand-alone DVD, waiting until a stand-alone Blu Ray equivalent is affordable. I don't follow the tech news but I simply am expecting stand-alone DVD to Blu Ray to follow the pattern of VCR to DVD: first we get players, then we get recorders, then the price becometh affordable. But presumably that means at least one more year for them to be available and two years to be affordable. Meanwhile either my DVD recorder is wearing out or it just can't handle the newer discs. And after reading all you wrote, it does not seem a good odea to hook up a hard drive to the DVR. It seems that DVD's actually give the best flexibility and we don't require Blu Ray quality. So I guess we'd better look for bargains in DVD recorders. Thank you. |
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In North America and Europe, the era of the PVRs/on-demand has overtaken tapes/discs. To many people, having to handle media is a quaint notion. All you need is a remote pointed at the magic box on top of the TV set, and you can record, play or buy anything you want without letting the couch cushions cool off. And it's not just cable/satellite companies anymore, but Hulu, Netflix, Vudu, etc. Most consumer sources are non-HD. The HDV/AVCHD video cameras owners will mostly be connecting to computers to edit/etc, which is generally stored on SD cards. Outside of cameras, you have broadcasts (TV), which studios and broadcasters are hell-bent on disallowing you from recording "for keeps". It's been that way since before the invention of the VCR, but they've made it more difficult to record by way using using legal loopholes, playing the DMCA against pre-existing copyright law. Fair use exemption within copyright law would have allowed recording, but the DMCA makes a (still untried) case against any breakage of "digital locks". So MPAA/studios/etc have hidden HD video behind an HDMI/HDCP firewall. You can have it if you can get to it, but you're not allowed to get to it. HD video is downconverted to SD quality when it's not fed out to an "approved" (non-TV) device via HDMI. So you can pretty much bet a recording box that lets you make discs will never be approved. Only component will safely sidestep this. This is nice: JVC SR-HD1500US Blu-Ray Disc and HDD Recorder but it has no future in North America. ($2200 at Amazon! Yikes!) I would like to be wrong. But I'm usually not. The only way to successfully record HDTV is to use some computer hardware, and lock onto QAM and ATSC signals. I've not followed recent trends in how/what is necessary, but I have read about stations being blocked on some newer capture cards. The hardware technology is constantly "evolving" (devolving in abilities) to appease certain parties. The biggest trend is to do away with component, and make all HD hardware HDMI-only. Quote:
Total cost is about $350 shipped from Amazon, and you won't find a better new recorder. And I don't think you're in the mood to buy a potentially problematic used and abused HDD recorder (as most are). I use a Philips DVD recorder that acted as the model for this entire line, and it's awesome. |
Thank you KP. Just a couple more notes, in case anyone would like to respond.
1. I didn't want blu-ray for HD. I wanted it to put more regular-quality on one disc. And I suspected this expectation was not to be counted on. Definitely not, it seems. Thank you KP for clearing this up. 2. I'd prefer a Panasonic, just because my current DVD recorder is Panasonic, so "maybe" another Panasonic might read the same "unfinalized" discs. (?) But if I had to bet, I would say, probably not so. If anyone would like to confirm this, please let me know...! Thank you all in any case. DVD recording is pretty darn good, pretty darn amazing, and pretty darn cheap. Sure takes up less space than VCRs. I am alright with DVDs, just wanted to be sure I was not missing something. Now I know for sure. Thank you all. |
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So there's some good news for you! :D
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Thank you everyone for your helpful replies to my questions here 3 years ago. I thought you might like to know my personal outcome.
1. In 2012--because of KP's statement that stand-alone blue-ray recorders were not on the horizon--I bought a new Panasonic with both DVD and VCR capability (so we could also transfer old VCRs). It still works very well and has no problem with white-label "printable" discs. I do not do disc printing, but Sharpie scribbles also look much nicer on the white discs. 2. Eventually, I also bought 4 Seagate 2-terrabyte USB hard drives for the Dish Network DVR. This has turned out to be a huge convenience well beyond any difference in dollar cost. I feel a substantial relief in my life compared to the time when I was almost daily copying one more thing to DVD. I now just copy almost everything to the DVR "archive" (external USB drive). Only one can be plugged in at a time, and I avoid filling much more than 1/2 of each drive (1 terrabyte). Consequently, I can eventually move the movies between drives by restoring to the DVR. Thus can organize by assigning a different category to each drive according to length or category or alphabetically or etc. Also, I keep every show that is 2 hours or more on an always-plugged-in "working archive." So I never have to worry about lack of space on the DVR. When we have the time for a longer movie, we can either "restore" it to the DVR or play it directly from the archive. It takes more time to scroll through the archive listings than the DVR listings. However, if we "sort" the DVR according to length or alphabet, then the "archive" listings will be sorted the same. Also, because only "longer movies" are on the working archive, it has fewer things to sort through. I.e. even if you do not save a lot of movies, an "archive" (external USB hard drive) for a DVR is very nice to have. If you keep shorter shows on the DVR they are easier to scroll through and you can skip ahead alphabetically (3=DEF, 4=GHI, etc.). Meanwhile, if you keep longer shows on the archive then you will not run out of space on the DVR. These longer shows also are probably the ones you would rather not lose when the DVR eventually goes kaput from being used constantly. However, please note that any long classical epic which you copy from a television broadcast--such as Doctor Zhivago or Ryan's Daughter--is likely to be edited for length and generally not the same quality as a copy rented from Netfliz. Also, someday Dish Network's technology might change so you might not be able to play what is on the archives. So, if anything is really important to you, then copy it to DVD. (P.S. I do not subscribe to HD TV. In addition to the cost, the quality is not significantly better, in my small opinion. Also, HD copies will take up much more room on the DVR and the archives. Thus probably reducing the benefits of archiving mentioned above. Although I suppose if you do find HD TV to be worth the cost, then several USB drive archives might be even more necessary just so as to have enough space for a basic amount of recording.) |
I would be worried that the DVR uses a format that is proprietary. Thus is the lose the DVR, you lose the whole collection. I could never do that. It's why I prefer DVD, DVD ISO, or even MP4/AVI for modern HD shows.
I've never been impressed by Netflix streaming quality. I'd rather get the DVD by mail. I don't trust DISH or Directv at all. Nor the cable companies, for that matter. HD is only useful for "filling the screen" 16x9, and for larger screens. If you mostly watch SD 4x3 content, or have a set under 50", then I'd somewhat agree. An HDTV with HD is not useful to everybody. |
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