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-   -   Long time to burn and extract DVD data disc (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/media/5317-long-time-burn.html)

gamemaniaco 09-01-2013 07:44 AM

Long time to burn and extract DVD data disc
 
I have an old PC with AMD Duron 1.20Ghz, 480MB DDR RAM, 18GB HDD Seagate 4MB cache PCChips motherboard M810DLU Windows XP Pro 32bit my burner is a Samsung SH-S182F 2MB buffer and burn a data disc of 2.61 GB using the program Imgburn at 4x burning for two hours and to extract all the contents of the disc to the PC is 8 hours

after burning the disc did a scan disk using nero DiscSpeed ​​and no error found

is this normal? why is that? can someone explain me?

my HDD manufacturer Seagate
Hard disk name U Series X 20014
Figure 3.5 "
Capacity after formatted 20 GB
discs 1
Recording Surfaces 1
Physical Dimensions 147.0 x 101.9 x 19.99 mm
Weight 455 g
Rotational latency 5:55 ms
Rotational Speed ​​5400 RPM
Maximum internal transfer coefficient 445 Mbit / s
Average Seek Time 12.7 ms
interface Ultra-ATA/100
Transfer Rate Buffer to host 100 MB / s
Buffer Size 2 MB

admin 09-05-2013 05:50 AM

Either:
A. The drive is dying.
B. The disc never burned well from the start.

A disc scan may be okay, but that's only one test. The TFT and jitter matter too.

gamemaniaco 09-05-2013 07:22 AM

1 analyzed the disc with Nero DiscSpeed ​​and no bad sector, can also copy all the files from the disc to the PC without any problems but it takes a long 8 hours to copy 2.61 GB and then copy all the files to the PC do an analysis with 7-Zip archives and in no error, the recording is OK?

2 which is TFT and jitter?

3 this long time to burn and copy may be because of my setup too old? burning recorder driver and HDD has only 2MB cache buffer

kpmedia 09-11-2013 08:57 AM

TFT and jitter is explained here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/medi...r-burning.html

Read that. :book:

You need a certain drive make/model to do the jitter/PO/PIE/PIF scans. And there's an art to reading that. Lots of people get it wrong. It's not hard data,but one that must be interpreted along with the media in use, and the drive in use.

TFT is basic, like the disc scan, though both are still influenced by the drive some.

Complex stuff. I'd just do that TFT and scan disc.

gamemaniaco 09-13-2013 08:13 AM

In my free Nero DiscSpeed ​​12 has no option to turn no TFT, jitter, / PO / PIE / PIF, TRT

My recorder is a samsung sh-s182f

I did a scan with nero DiscSpeed ​​and it seems the problem is the dvd burner drive access time is high

admin 09-28-2013 04:29 PM

TFT = "benchmark"

Not all drive can use the two disc quality scans. (PO, PIF, PIE, etc) And if you don't understand them fully, or have somebody that can help guide you with what you're doing (helping to interpret the results), there's no point. MyCE, formerly CDFreaks, is full of people making asinine conclusions because of poor understanding of what these tests actually mean. Don't do that. Don't be "that guy".

pepst 09-29-2013 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin (Post 27959)
TFT = "benchmark"

Not all drive can use the two disc quality scans. (PO, PIF, PIE, etc) And if you don't understand them fully, or have somebody that can help guide you with what you're doing (helping to interpret the results), there's no point. MyCE, formerly CDFreaks, is full of people making asinine conclusions because of poor understanding of what these tests actually mean. Don't do that. Don't be "that guy".

What do you mean by "asinine conclusions" and "poor understanding"? ;)

lordsmurf 09-29-2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepst (Post 27995)
What do you mean by "asinine conclusions" and "poor understanding"? ;)

Well, when it comes to optical discs, 90% of people there don't know their ass from their elbow. You're in the 10% that does. And as such, we value your input around here.

The pre-MyCE days were really bad, lots of ridiculous posts. Look back at them sometime.

For example, when Ritek was supposedly "good" and scanned well, people were almost having orgasms over how supposedly great the discs were. They were terrible, of course, and time has proven this. Ritek had a serious quality issue in the pre-oxonol days, and even slight degradation in the in-house dye media would cause it to be difficult to read in most drives, as it was so out of spec. RITEKG01 to RITEKG05 dye, all of them.

Lots of myths came out of that forum, such as "bad batch" -- a reference to a spindle, not the 100,000 to 1,000,000 (or more!) that actually makes a "batch" of media. That silliness was how they often explained the unreliable manufacturing from CMC, in an attempt to defend it as a good disc. In other words "CMC is great, save a bad batch." Total malarkey from morons.

Most people knew nothing of media, yet posted weird theories as facts anyway. It's really not any different from the 9/11 conspiracy sites, which are almost entirely caused from lack of scientific understanding.

I don't visit MyCE often, but I believe it's more sensible these days. However, all the old BS can still be found via search.

pepst 09-30-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 28005)
Well, when it comes to opitical discs, 90% of people there don't know their ass from their elbow. You're in the 10% that does. And as such, we value your input around here.

Thanks. ;)

Quote:

For example, when Ritek was supposedly "good" and scanned well, people were almost having orgasms over how supposedly great the discs were. They were terrible, of course, and time has proven this. Ritek had a serious quality issue in the pre-oxonol days, and even slight degradation in the in-house dye media would cause it to be difficult to read in most drives, as it was so out of spec. RITEKG01 to RITEKG05 dye, all of them.
To be fair, Ritek's DVDRs did not seem to be a bad choice then. They burned and scanned reasonably well (at least those sold under "A" brands), were very well supported (firmware wise) and extremely compatible with older and problematic players. I was able to get my hands on Ritek G04/05 tests made with professional equipment from Datarius and AudioDev and the results of electrical and physical tests were fully comparable to any TY, Maxell (MIJ) or MCC media.
It's a shame that their dye could deteriorate in just a few weeks, but nobody could know that beforhand.


Quote:

I don't visit MyCE often, but I believe it's more sensible these days. However, all the old BS can still be found via search.
Do you still have an account there?

lordsmurf 09-30-2013 02:35 PM

I've been burning DVD-R since 2001, and had experience with RITEKG01 and RITEKG02. Before that, I'd been burning CD-R since either 1995 or 1996, and had come across a few Ritek discs sometime in the 90s. It was rarer in the USA back then. The older discs simply were not good, and I had no reason to think that had changed.

The hype surrounding the G03 and first half of the G04 era was blown way out of proportion, with many even proclaiming it to be the best disc ever. If you remember back, it was the era of PVC (Pioneer), Japanese TDK, Japanese Maxell, and Singapore/Japan MCC. Even Taiyo Yuden media was not as good yet! (TYG01 was not great.) To suggest that Taiwanese DVD-R was superior was ridiculous. (Note: Taiwan is fine now, but not back then.)

The Ritek dye aged regardless of whether it was burned. The data doesn't "disappear", but is simply hard to read on most drives. BTC is one of the only ones that can reliably read them, and it was famous for reading problem discs. (BTC has been gone for years now, of course.) That's another myth from CDFreaks -- "disappearing data".

If you really look at all the aspects of the Ritek G03/G04 scans -- not just the common ones -- there were telltale signs. If nothing else, those discs were more variable, whereas other quality media had more expected values. People were always "surprised" that it tested that good/bad.

My main gripe was how the old CDFreaks site was always a knee-jerk kind of place, without any degree of patience and long-term analysis. It was mostly caveman logic that prevailed, with instant conclusions that lacked merit. Add in a few hecklers/trolls -- like the obese 20-year-old anime nerd "Dolphinius_Rex" that hadn't even yet finished college, much less had any professional media experience (yet pretended he did) -- and that was CDFreaks.com back in the day. It was disappointing.

I don't think it (now MyCE) ever really recovered from their heyday. Part of that was due to the invasion of trolls, and the unfriendly environment. I could say the same about Afterdawn and Doom9. The former has spammer issues, the latter had moderator/admin issues. From about 2004-2007, several video sites were simply NOT very inviting or friendly to newbies. As such, newbies never came. When the trolls left, the sites had little left in the way of regular members. Again, very disappointing. It's one reason why I spent all my time here and at VideoHelp over the years. I'm a media/video professional, and simply don't have time or patience for that BS.

I've had my new laptop since May 2012. MyCE was still blocked by NoScript. So I've not logged in for at least 15 months now. But I just did, and yes I still have an account there. If the rabble is gone, I may go back.

Right now I'm in the middle of a personal media case study. It spans 2001-2013 media, at least 1,000 different discs. I think you'll be interested! It's something I plan to publish around the end of the year -- at least start to -- and it's going to be quite a few pages long. It's going to be interesting, as I'm testing discs that have been burned for 10+ years now, and for some I have before/after (same discs scanned in 2003, 2007, 2010, etc, if I can find them all).

I can PM you when I get close to done. :)

pepst 10-02-2013 03:50 PM

Quote:

The Ritek dye aged regardless of whether it was burned. The data doesn't "disappear", but is simply hard to read on most drives. BTC is one of the only ones that can reliably read them, and it was famous for reading problem discs. (BTC has been gone for years now, of course.) That's another myth from CDFreaks -- "disappearing data".
You are right that data do not simply disappear overnight - the change from perfectly readable to unreadable medium is always gradual. But there's always a point when a dye become so faded/decomposed that is impossible to extract any useful informations at all.
There were some kinds of DVDR dye known for rapid deterioration - the most infamous ones were the 4x and 8x dyes ("Dye 41" and "Dye 82") from Interaxia AG (Swiss supplier of DVDR dyes, stampers and process know-how). I do not know if you have any experience with VDSPSAB/VDSPMSAB media, they were not widely available in North America. Interaxia's dyes were used by almost all European DVDR manufacturers and by tens of mostly small producers in Hong Kong, China and southeast Asia.
99% of DVDRs that were made using Interaxia's dye went completely unreadable within 3 months, regardless of actual manufacturer, initial burn quality, storage conditions, etc.
The scandal fully broke in summer of 2004, forcing Interaxia AG to going bankrupt (with an enormous debt) and driving about a dozen of their customers off market. And, of course, leaving tens of millions of DVDRs with unrecoverable data.

Quote:

I can PM you when I get close to done.
That would be great! Thanks in advance.

lordsmurf 10-03-2013 08:52 PM

Quote:

But there's always a point when a dye become so faded/decomposed that is impossible to extract any useful informations at all.
True, but it's usually at least 5-10 years before that happens, not weeks or months (rare).

In most cases, the drive has issues, and it's why somebody can't read a disc. The drives age terribly, and are either weak or even fully dead in 2-3 years. Ironically, discs will far outlive drives. Even when the drive is good for burning, many are crap for reading, even the home-favorite scanning drives. My BenQ is still work great to scan discs, but the Pioneer DVR-111 is a better reader on problem discs. That was always my gripe -- too much blaming discs, and not enough analyzing drives. Just blind assumptions, and that's not science.

Quote:

There were some kinds of DVDR dye known for rapid deterioration - the most infamous ones were the 4x and 8x dyes ("Dye 41" and "Dye 82") from Interaxia AG (Swiss supplier of DVDR dyes, stampers and process know-how). I do not know if you have any experience with VDSPSAB/VDSPMSAB media, they were not widely available in North America. Interaxia's dyes were used by almost all European DVDR manufacturers and by tens of mostly small producers in Hong Kong, China and southeast Asia.
Yes, I do! :)

In fact, one of my Interaxia discs (possibly another dye) just became unreadable since November 2012 and the re-scan in May 2013. The disc was problematic last year, and had to be read with ISO Puzzle with many retries. Now nothing can recover it. That discs was burned around 2004 or so, and is almost a decade old. I've had some Ritek "die" in the past year, but the discs were always really bad value-wise (scans). I didn't scan then as often, but they became unreadable in the past 2 years. The discs were also from 2006 or earlier.

In my experience, even bad discs tend to last at least 5 years. And bad discs was less than 1% of all media. Meaning the initial burn quality is still the most important, because of the % of coasters from manufacturer to manufacturer (anywhere from 1% to 50% or worse).

It, along with others, is in the media case study. And the above statement is likely my conclusion.

Trivia: More than anything else, reading disc ISOs give problems because of corrupt IFO/BUP, which many falsely blame on media. I've had at least 40 discs with issues because of this. Annoying! (Not my author work. I know better.)

pepst 10-12-2013 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 28199)
In fact, one of my Interaxia discs (possibly another dye) just became unreadable since November 2012 and the re-scan in May 2013. The disc was problematic last year, and had to be read with ISO Puzzle with many retries. Now nothing can recover it. That discs was burned around 2004 or so, and is almost a decade old.

What brand is that medium? Do you know who made it?

lordsmurf 10-12-2013 06:45 AM

The brand was Mirror (UK). Hmmm... I wrote that but decided to pop the disc in to verify. This one's an ONIDTECH disc. Also crap, FYI, and this disc is confirmed degraded after 8+ years. I still think the Interaxia is a Mirror, but must have the wrong one. It's from Europe -- UK, if I recall correctly. I know that much.

Somewhere I've got some Interaxia AG discs (VDPSMAB, or something like that), but will have to look for either the discs or the scan images. I used to have more, but tossed them back around 2005, and re-burned to better MXLRG02 discs at the time. That was one of the best, easiest, discs to get back then. Even the local drug store carried them on sale! I don't think I tossed/replaced them all.

My personal DVD collection is more or less set now, as I'm mostly making ISO files to stream, or using the higher 15Mb/s Blu-ray specs for 720x480 video. What I want to do is scan each disc for PIE/PIF/PO/jitter/TFT values. I've tested many for periodic checks in the past, but this is the first time I'm scanning them all. There's thousands of them, going back a decade. And most discs are older, not newer.

I plan to find the now+past screen caps from scans, too, if I can locate them all.

gamemaniaco 10-12-2013 07:19 AM

You can tell if burning was successful without errors by doing a surface analysis with Nero DiscSpeed​​? after burning the disc philips dvd + R 16x cmc mag m01 taking 2 hours I opened Nero DiscSpeed ​​tab and clicked analyze disk and analyzed the surface of the disk and analyzed the disk read and no damaged bad sector found I looked disc at the bottom and no staining dye

this means that the burning was successful without errors?

lordsmurf 10-12-2013 07:55 AM

Yes and no. I'll answer this post in two parts. Here's part 1:

There's essentially 3 typical discs tests:
- surface scanning, which you did
- transfer rate tests (TRT) -- sometimes called a "transfer test" (TFT)
- the advanced jitter, PIF, PIE, PO testing

You can pass one, yet fail others. To have a good disc, it needs to pass all 3, and with good values. The surface scan usually means you can read a disc right now, and thus extract data if needed. But that can change. The way to estimate these changes is by analyzing the other two tests, especially the jitter and PIE (parity inner failures).

I'll get to part 2 in a week or so, which is mostly some sample images. Very busy right now.

I know you want answer now, but this will take some time to explain. I can do something quick to aid in explaining. But if you don't get it right away, I'm not explaining it again. It's not that I'm mean, but because I'm putting together something huge, which should explain it in-depth for novices. So you'll have to wait for that, if needed. It's going to take a few months.

gamemaniaco 10-12-2013 08:53 AM

please help lordsmurf

1 then as I do these other tests ? does not have these options in Nero DiscSpeed

2 My drive is a Samsung SH- S182F 2007

3 I have 3 discs recorded in the same way taking two hours to write , I must do the test with 3 disks or can take the test with only one disk to be the same thing in the other ? are kept so wanted to take the test only one disk

4 I'm worried about losing my files in dvd that I have not done the other tests, My files will be deleted automatically and not be able to read the disc in the future because I did not do the other tests

pepst 10-13-2013 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 28317)
The brand was Mirror (UK). Hmmm... I wrote that but decided to pop the disc in to verify. This one's an ONIDTECH disc. Also crap, FYI, and this disc is confirmed degraded after 8+ years. I still think the Interaxia is a Mirror, but must have the wrong one. It's from Europe -- UK, if I recall correctly. I know that much.

Could you post a picture of the ONIDTECH disc with visible serial & stamper numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 28317)
My personal DVD collection is more or less set now, as I'm mostly making ISO files to stream, or using the higher 15Mb/s Blu-ray specs for 720x480 video. What I want to do is scan each disc for PIE/PIF/PO/jitter/TFT values. I've tested many for periodic checks in the past, but this is the first time I'm scanning them all. There's thousands of them, going back a decade. And most discs are older, not newer.

What is the oldest DVDR that you have in your "collection"? Which one do you consider to be the rarest?

lordsmurf 10-13-2013 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamemaniaco (Post 28320)
please help lordsmurf

You need to have patience. Wait! Do not double post; double posts are deleted. I will get to it as time is available.
Read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...-answered.html

Consider becoming a Premium Member. :wink2:

lordsmurf 10-13-2013 11:34 AM

@pepst

I can't scan it right now. But it's "ONID 4x 0001" and "0213".

When I went to scan it again -- I could read it! So I dumped the ISO. The disc isn't even half full, which is why it was not re-burned and tossed in the past. Most bad discs have past 2-3GB, so anything smaller was assumed to be fine long-term. I've got a spindle of problem discs. Thus far, all but this one are RITEKG03, G04 and G05 media that have reading failures. I tried them with 9 drives each, and set them aside when it failed all 9 times.

Curiously, it was usually RITEK DVD-R and TY DVD-R (Taiyo Yuden) -- non-fake TYG02 especially -- that consistently give errors, and another drive is required. Pioneer read best, while all others (LiteOn, BenQ, LG, Samsung) have varying degrees of errors. Most Ritek and TY require a Pioneer 111, which is one of the best Pioneer readers ever made (and thankfully, I have 3!)

But I digress...

The oldest DVD-R is from 2001, and is some of the first produced by Pioneer (PVC).

I'm not sure what's rarest yet. I have all sorts of goofy discs from UK and Europe. Not so much Asia. I'm maybe 50% done ripping discs. I'm setting aside odd stuff, old stuff, and problem stuff, as I want to scan those first. Then I'll do all the others (TDK, MXL, TY/YUDEN, MCC, PVC, RITEK, FUJI, etc).

How rare are the LGE discs? I'd never seen any myself, and I'd looked. I have 5 unburned ones in jewel cases. I'm not sure if the was an outsourced ID, or in-house discs that quickly got discontinued. Those are from 2004, 4x discs. They had 1x and 2x too. It may have ONLY been sold by LG directly. Not sure. I could never find out much about this media, though I've not looked in at least 5 years now.


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