Mitsui / MAM-A gold CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are best?
 

Hello.
I would like to ask for your opinion on MAM-A's Mitsui Gold CD-Rs.
I have read on few forums and the opinions were, that this is the best CD-R available, better than Taiyo Yuden.
The estimated lifetime is 300 years according to the company.

The matter is, I am searching for the most reliable and durable media for music production, so that the data isn't lost within few years, because I have few CD-Rs from bands duplicated in pressing plants, which after few years show read errors.

So, is the Mitsui Gold the best CD-R available?

I'd be very curious to see what forum posts were spreading that misinformation. I dare say that anybody parroting MAM-A marketing has not tested these media.

Gold makes for nice jewelry, and is more pricey than "silver" (actually other alloys), but it is less reflective. That's the reason that the best media does not use it. MAM-A media tests about as well as pre-Oxonol Ritek. The reflectivity is poor, thus readability is poor.

For DVD (and we can extrapolate for CD-R), reflectivity should score no more than 9. And indeed Taiyo Yuden and Mitsubishi media scores lower (as lower is better). I've seen a TY or MCC score as low as 5, but it averages about 6-7. Older media like Maxell and TDK (the manufacturer, not brand) was right around 9. This that media was 1st Class in our score. There were other reasons for the rankings, but you'll find that things like reflectivity overlapped with criteria like coaster % (lower=better). Good was good, mediocre was mediocre, and bad was bad, and for multiple reasons. Something like MAM-A would score in the 10-13 range, and was way out of spec for DVD recordables.

We need to update this page (DVD), but the overall info is still accurate: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm
And then plans are to add a CD-R, a Blu-ray, and even an analog tape page.

In summary: MAM-A media is overpriced crap.

Note that MAM-A (mama?) bought out the remains on Mitsui about 10 years ago. From what I remember, it's not really the old Mitsui employees, but instead a new entity altogether. Old Mitsui CD-R was good, but MAM-A CD-R was junk trying to cash in on the old reputation.

People that "swear by" MAM-A are usually the same ones that "swear at" the media in later years, after they learn that aging optical devices balk at the lower reflectivity of those discs. The only way to read them reliably is to continously buy new players/readers/burners, and hope that those devices are good at reading (which many are not). The same issue exists for CMC, Ritek, and others. I've seen this effect literally for decades now. People "like" discs for no valid or scientific reason, and those same folks often attribute nonsense to them as well (ie "the motion looked better" or "the audio sounded better").

You also have to hope the media does not naturally degrade to a point that, when combined with lower reflectivity, the data cannot be read at all. That happens a lot on lower-quality (not-necessarily-cheaper) media. After 10 years, you can see some early effects when the original burner was non-optimal and the original disc was already degraded (coaster-like). That's why their claims of "300 years" are total nonsense. It'll never happen. The science is simply against them.

To makes all this worse, MAM-A is known to sell their media ID (MID) to other companies. So it's NOT actually MAM-A media at all! It may be Ritek or CMC or whatever. Supposedly they "licensed" it out to TDK some years ago, but at a time when "TDK was just a brand name for CMC rebagded media. So that "quality" MAM-A name was on lousy CMC discs. It was a real bait-and-switch. Sometimes the discs outright came with CMC IDs showing.

Do yourself a favor, recognize that advice for the non-science nonsense it is, and stick to quality media: TY or Verbatim MCC.

Well, they claim 300+ longevity.
http://www.mam-a-store.com/goldcdr.html

As with gold, It's resistant to oxidation.
Aluminum layer on audio CDs is crap.
Audiophiles claim best results are on SHM CDs, Golden CDs or glass CDs, I have no ide what glass CD is.

Nevertheless, CD-R is always inferior, because oprganic dye will decompose eventually.
Yet, I am searching for the best of the best, when it comes to data retention and oxidation resistance.

What is the best reflecive layer and dye?

It's a real shame, thet they don't make M-Disc CDs...
I use magnetic media for storage, but they lose magnetisation over time and have a limited amount of use as they leave dust from the magnetic particles, so it wears quickly...

As for gold, I have 2 pressed CDs with golden reflective layer, I wonder how the will do in 20 years time.

So I should use TY, Verbatim and Sony?

I find TY CD-R to be the best there is. The dye is excellent, the reflectivity is excellent, the longevity is excellent.

Gold may be more resistant to oxidation, but not by much. Metallic foil on discs is not 100% aluminum; everybody learned their lesson on that back in the Laserdisc days (ie, Laserdisc rot).

FYI, this Wikipedia entry is mostly BS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot

TY, I'll ytu them.
Fortunately I didn't start ordering custom MAM-A CD-Rs from bands to burn me internet only releases.

What dye and metallic layer does TY use?

As for dyes, Wikipedia says, that Phthalovyanine can be dated in hundreds of years, but has disadvantages, and azo only in decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#P...haracteristics

M-Discs would be life savers...

What do you think about these: https://www.ccd.pl/covery/UltradiscCDR.jpg?
More expensive than MAM-As, over 4EUR per disc.

Taiyo Yuden (TY) uses their own cyanine-based dye. Although cyanine was one of the first CD-R dyes used, and found to degrade quicker over time, TY added stabilizers to it that halted the degradation. Cyanine dye was a deep green color, while TY discs are a medium green. I still have CD players (including in both cars) that will only play a cyanine-based CD-R; silvery-green phthalocyanine discs are either skip or rejected.

M-Disc brand non-organic DVD-R (not really a format to itself) doesn't fair any better in tests than "gold" DVDs. Although the disc dye layer is non-organic, it still uses bonding (the weakest part of any disc), and the outside is still susceptible to the elements, making claims of 1,000 years (or whatever) ridiculous. Their marketing is mostly nonsense that can be debunked by a high school student that paid attention in chemistry class.

The only way that gold would work is if it had a dual foil -- silver inside, gold outside. And indeed, for DVD-R, Verbatmi makes such a disc for those that stubbornly insist on having gold content. But that's overly expensive, and a harder CD-R exterior (or DVD-R/DVD+R) can simply be accomplished by a better lacquer or overprint. What I prefer are the inkjet or thermal printable TY CD-R, and that gives the harder top layer needed. For DVD-R, Verbatim branded DVD-R/DVD-R have all you need. Avoid "shiny silver" discs.

Too much info, too much confsion...

I've read that Aao dyes are better than cyanine, both vulnerable for oxidation, M-Disc is not.

As for reflective layers those informarions were interesting.

What do you think abput those:
http://www.mofi.com/product_p/udgcdr5.htm
?

And does 1x real time burning make better results?

It gets this way because too many not-knowledgeable folks want to add their 2 cents to conversations. That's one of the problems with the internet. Everybody thinks they're an expert.

Azo dyes are very good, yes. And azo is better than *just* cyanine, yes. But again, Taiyo Yuden is not just pure cyanine. I'd need to pull up my own research sometime, to verify the exact method they use -- I forget if it's a cyanine-phthalocyanine amalgam, or just stabilized cyanine.

All discs are subjected to oxidation on a dye layer. M-Disc oxidizes too. That's the nature of dye.

Reflectivity is not just about the reflective layer. That's part of it, yes, but not all. The dye itself can cause reflectivity issues, and for CD-R, that's the major problem with phthalocyanine.

I'm not impressed. I'm not a girl that gets giddy over shiny things. When it comes to the science of optical media, gold is not good. Again, gold makes nice jewelry, but lousy CD or DVD.

Not necessarily. It completely depends on how the burner is optimized, and how well the disc is optimized.

Take a Verbatim 1x-16x DVD-R, for example. It's really terrible at 1x. But it's also terrible at 16x. The best burn range is 8x-12x. However, some burners are still terrible at 12x, and will only see it as 8x media. So 4x-8x is the best choice. Which exact speed is best depends on how the disc tests.

To add a monkey wrench, this 16x disc works well at slower-than-1x realtime (ie, DVD recorders). Go figure.

I realize this is as clear as mud, but it's not a simple question. It's easy to ask, yes, but not easy to answer. There's too many factors, too many variables.

One thing is clear, gold is out of equation.

So stabilised cyanine can get better results than phthalocyanine and azo?

With those informations I'm starting to thinking on getting Sony SDT-9000 and using DATs...

Are there tests for M-Disc available here?

And does anyone know what dye those M-Discs actually use?

We've not had time to publish our result on M-Disc, but it's nothing special. Lots of bark, no bite.

DAT is tape, and tape has issues. Digital tape is actually worse than analog tape. You're better off with hard drives and optical burned write-once media. Just use good manufacturers (Seagate HDD, or Taiyo Yuden and Misubishi DVD-R/DVD+R).

M-Disc is inorganic. I have the specs on it somewhere. The patent is here: http://www.google.com/patents/US8389095

FYI: Ritek manufacturers M-Disc. http://www.ritek.com/p2-pro1-M-DISC.asp
Few seem to know this. Do you see the problem yet? Again, nothing special.

M-Disc has very attracting promises, to say the least.
They claim 1000 years, those dolcen CD-Rs claim up to 300 years...

DATs are obsolete now and they were never mainstream format, so that was more like a joke, I have 1 DAT that was used as DDS.

As for digital tapes, I wonder if not-first0youth DLTs will do good for backups...

Titek, I've read they are rather medium quality...

So, for CD-Rs I should stock up on TYs or Verbatim's azos?

As I mentioned I'd use them to make mysic CDs from an underground label and I wouldn't like complains within few years that those CD-Rs are decomposing.

So, which CDs give the best results, has least errors and have sufficient lifespan?

Well, when it comes to CD-R, know that in years past, I'd worked with studios and artists in Nashville. They all used Taiyo Yuden, when burning discs (masters, demos, short-run, on-demand, etc). It wasn't the cheapest, but it was the best. Like you, they did not want to deal with returned duds, or duds that interfere with normal daily operations.

In the 2000s, I'd probably dealt with more blank discs in any one year than most people will do in their entire lifetime.

Genuine Mitsui was excellent back in the day, as was Maxell, Mitsubishi and Pioneeer. But those are all gone. TY is what we have left now. Even the MCC that exist now are a ghost of their former self, having adopted phthalocyanine entirely.

So, TY then.
They are available today as JVCs right?
Any particular series?
Som, they are better than tge Verbatim Azo CDs?

-- merged --

I have found this list of "The Best Brands of CD-R Discs for Long-Term Data Storage".
It has different opinion on MAM-A and TY discs:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/cd-rw.html

So my question jumps back to unresolved.

It's pretty obvious that the person who wrote that doesn't test media like we do.

For example:
Not "our tests", etc -- just tests.

Also don't overlook the "silver" aspect. The person writing this doesn't know much about media. It's not silver. Silver-colored, yes. But that's not silver.

And that's a kook site with lots of random nonsense. :unsure:

Well, then I guess I'm back at TY.

I believe you're not familiar with "http://henryx.com.pl" distro?
As I'm trying to get some intel on reliability of this one.

Not, I'm not really up to date on Polish online media stores. I use to more closely track EU media, but not for several years now.

TY is good.
MCC is also a good choice.
Even RITEKF isn't horrible media. I scanned some yesterday, and the scans were very good.

MCC? Never heartd this one.
I started with domestic distro, but if you know a reliable EU supplier, that would be worthy.

MCC = Mitsubishi, commonly branded as Verbatim (but not always)

http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/buy-blank-discs.htm mentions an EU(rope) supplier you should consider. I have not had a bad experience with them.

I will try.
As for my domestic supplier, he has those two:
http://henryx.com.pl/jvc-cd-r-x48-70...sy-c-50-w.html
http://henryx.com.pl/jvc-cd-r-x52-70...-ff-s-100.html

Do they at least look legit?

-- merged --

There:
https://www.nierle.com/s01.php?shopi...=6&sortierung=

seem to be a lot of options, which would the most appropriate for making music CDs?
Gold ones, watershield ones, unbranded, etc?

Af for gold ones, from what we spoke, they would not be the best choice, right?

Gold makes for pretty jewelry for the ladies, not quality DVD blanks.

Watershield is for inkjet.
Unbranded "shiny" discs are not as good as branded/inkjet media, due to the surface quality.

That Henryx site looks legit, yes. I know that Nielre is.

OK.
Time to stock up.

I chall check how does gold pressed CDs do at tests.

I've read tests where the so-called "audiophiles" claim that some glass CDs sound the best, or gold, or SHM...

Like material had anything to do with digital signal processed by hardware.

I've always considered the term "audiophiles" to be really stupid, and it usually applies to people who make up unscientific nonsense. Claiming that the color or material of a disc effects the 1's and 0's present on a disc is a perfectly example of their stupidity. People like that need to be ignored, possibly even ridiculed.

Mitsui and Maxell gold CD-R was generally made better, but it had nothing to do with the gold content. Those discs were just made better, the end. But Taiyo Yuden non-gold discs were excellent, perhaps even moreso due to the dye. It's the dye that matters for longevity and readability, and nothing else (when it comes to CD-R, DVD was different).

I've read TY uses cyanine dye with stabilisation, that performs better than best metal-azo dyes, while cyanine without stabilisation is not as good.

That's most accurate, though often overstated. The TY stabilized cyanine is good, though I'd disagree with the "better" aspect compared to azo. It's just different, and different hardware reacts differently. If anything, azo has better reflectivity, meaning more devices see it. Cyanine media has shorter shelf life, but once burned isn't awful. As with DVD, the initial burn is the main issue, not the longevity in terms of materials degradation. Glues and upper foil (CD only) is a bigger issue than the dye.

If you compared inkjet or branded CD-R, with no foil exposed, MCC's azo and TY would last longer, while both would read just fine in most cases. Only the cyanine would have reduced life.

Phthalocyanine is pretty much lousy in all regards, regardless of better-than-cyanine longevity. That's the cheap junk used by most off-brand manufacturers, what few are left.

Well, henryx has only one type of TY:
http://henryx.com.pl/jvc-cd-r-x48-70...sy-c-50-w.html

He had two, a 100x cake, but they might be out of stock now...

TY is out of production, so any restock would be from the TY warehouses. After it's gone, no more TY.

That is not good.

I found the second version:
http://henryx.com.pl/jvc-cd-r-x52-70...-ff-s-100.html

I wonder if they are the same, or different.
Because there is a large differance in price per disc.

Just FYI, sometimes TY media would be 200% the cost between spindles for no reason. TY pricing often made no sense.

Well, I guess they are the same.
Though, one claims that 100 years of data integrity is guaranteed.

Well, the 100 is better priced.

So unless I can manage to convince pressing plants to press me custom and small amounts of CDs, TY CD-Rs seem my only choice.

My earliest choice for CD-Rs were the Apogee media (gold) which I think was manufactured by Mitsui. Only 74 min CD-Rs were available. I don't find any difference when listening to a gold MAM-A, or Taiyo Yuden CD-R (silver or top gold) recorded in my old but great Marantz CDR-620 recorder. All my Apogee and Taiyo Yuden with around 20 years play correctly.

lordsmurf So, let consider only the Taiyo Yuden media. They have silver (cheaper) CD-R and CD-R with gold top. Do you have tested both? Do you still suggest the silver Taiyo Yuden CD-R? I've a backup of CD-R to use later with my Marantz CDR-620 record. Most are Apogee (=Mitsui,gold CD-R), MAM-A (gold CD-R), and Taiyo Yuden silver CD-R.

The discs were never "silver", though silvery in color only. It was other metals in use.

The cheaper aspect is only due to marketing, and the higher price of the gold materials. It has nothing to do with quality.

The biggest issue with silver vs. gold was reflectivity. Gold just is not as reflective as silver at the light wavelengths used by discs, regardless of any marketing. Gold makes for pretty jewelry, components in IC boards, and some scientific needs, but that's about it.

The major issue with CD is the utter lack of a top layer. All it has is some drizzled on goop to seal it, not an actual polycarb layer. Those will expose the disc far quicker than other issues. That or bonding. This assumes the dyewas good to begin with.

I've tested all of those discs in spades. I'm not sure about Apogee brand specifically, but Maxell TY for sure. And straight TY inkjet media. In fact, I still have a few TY CD-R left.