Could we launch a Kickstarter to build a new TBC?

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCarthy

They are in the same market of video production. Processing analog data is no rocket science, still done on the audio level, every day.

I think too much is made of how technically 'tricky' this is, TBC was done discreetly in the 1960s and in to the 1970s with some of the Sony broadcast stuff. I don't want to say it's 'trivial' or 'easy' but compared to a lot of DSP it's not the bleeding edge.

When it could be done with bits of glass, fast FIFO looks rather simple.

Quote:

One of my company's manufacturing sites is in Taiwan. The Taiwanese are highly qualified and dedicated when it comes to any planning, design work, workflow, milestones, testing and documentation, much like Germany engineering. If there is any company that maintains documentation, it will be a German, Taiwanese or Japanese company. There is no comparison to US based endeavors that grow fast, sell out, and dump everything the day the executives drop out with the cash in hand.

Doing things professionally is a decision I make based on my needs, not how others define it. Transferring some old VHS tapes is a hobby that doesn't increase my net assets. Bringing out my perfectionism will only add costs for little gains.

Being mentally able to decide when to be professional is something you will learn fast when you run a company on an international level, with locations in different markets, dealing with different definitions for a "professional" product or service. Offering a "professional" product in the US will get you run over by the competition that sells cheap crap made in China.

There is a reason why the US sold out most of its working middle class and related tax revenue. US consumers are cheap idiots. Try to find quality power tools made in the US. Most US companies couldn't compete with the crap you can buy at Home Depot and gave up. US consumers buy throw away products, they don't care for professional products that last a lifetime. So trying to sell a "professional" product in the US is admirable, but not going to work. Not in this society where most people don't have any cash assets and keep buying as cheap as possible, often on credit.

Now in Germany, you are still forced to deliver a "professional" product. Looking at tools, the best ones come indeed from Germany, made in Germany. Check out HAZET or FEIN for example.

Not even the concept of "professional" service works in the US anymore. All long outsourced to India etc. Try to start a new US business with "professional" service, located in the US, with US based payrolls. You will be out of the game fast, because US consumers go by price first, and second, even in the service sector.

In this context, a mid range, new TBC-1000 with current components for 1k would be much better than buying used ones for 2k, or modded ones for almost 3k.

As I said, chances are dim for DataVideo to follow up, let alone follow through, but it was worth the email and the call one of my staff members in Taiwan will do if I don't hear back.

It's a similar story here in Britbong Land, although we never had a fantastic reputation for making much, we started the home computer revolution with companies like Sinclair who would routinely suggest various fixes for their computers involving Blu-tak (might not translate to American, the putty stuff you stick things on walls with) - that upstart Commodore bringing a least some measure of quality!

Or British cars, a whole tale in itself. German automotive quality has suffered though, Mercedes carry little-to-no cachet here now such is the middling build quality and innovation they seem to have settled upon. They're now regarded as a mid-market commercial vehicle maker by and large in the automotive community, nothing they've launched here in the last decade or so seems to hold any great impression of quality. I do drive a BMW though, always have, always will I might be biased.

Oh, and Wera tools, which are my first choice for general engineering hand tools.

With regards to documentation, my professional electronics experience is mostly in environmental monitoring or (especially) pharmaceutical; both of which full and complete documentation is part of the package and not remotely optional. In pharma, improper documentation control is simply not tolerated so I can't speak from personal experience in other fields.

Your views though do broadly correlate with views my friends who work in other industries have, so you don't seem to be alone in this.

To bring this back around though, from an outsider's perspective, the US economy is starting to look ever-so-slightly scary.

[McCarthy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

To bring this back around though, from an outsider's perspective, the US economy is starting to look ever-so-slightly scary.

At this point there is no way out of our national debt / low quality of everything / failing infrastructure / buying everything including time on credit / Feds printing money / depletion of all natural resources / throw away society. Not in the US.

Edit: Nope, that got far too political, back to the video topic. -LS

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCarthy

...

I don't want to get into a political discussion on here
I'll just say we would probably agree on a few things.
I'll leave it here, but feel free to PM if you want a quick chat from a UK perspective.

Edit: Too political, back to the video topic. -LS

[lordsmurf]

Video processing isn't all the same, and if it wasn't "rocket science" then the Easycaps would work perfectly. But that just isn't reality.

While I'd normally agree that certain geographies tend to do certain things with more care, there's always exceptions. Generalities are just generally true, not always true.

You want profit motive?
Buy the damaged TBC-1000, fix it, use it, the resell it when done.
In the end:
- you got a free TBC to use, hopefully even made a few extra bucks off it
- you did a good deed, repair quality gear our video community need

$2k can be fair if the issues are known, easy to fix
Otherwise, wait for $1k or less damaged unit.

Pre-1995 TBCs really have nothing in common with TBCs needed for consumer analog digital conversion.

Politics has a way of leeching into conversations in recent past years, but Twitter/Facebook-style name-calling commentary is not tolerated. That always comes across as knuckle-dragging uneducated, as well as inciting off-topic arguments.

[latreche34]

Besides Data Video, there are few more companies that are still around, Black Magic, Ensemble Designs, Grass Valley, Aja, and more, But their focus is not SD video, because it's obsolete, done, no market for it. Their focus is on 4K, 8K production where the money is. If you are one of the very few that want a quality product from back in the day just be patient, they do show up online for a price usually less than what a new good quality product would cost not even accounting for inflation.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Pre-1995 TBCs really have nothing in common with TBCs needed for consumer analog digital conversion.
ts.

What changed in 1995?

[latreche34]

I would also like to point out that SingMai has released a new capture device last year, They just released the latest version of its user manual.

[jeremfg]

Funny how I'm in a different league/problem lol.

I've been putting together a setup for 2 years now, slowly collecting what I need. I got my XP machine, an AIW card, Turtle Beach, a new-old-stock TBC-1000.... The one thing I was unable to find/get thus far is a proper VCR I'm happy with. I've been looking for an AG-1980 in forever and those things are unobtainium unless you want to feed in the wallet of an eBay scammer.

So I'd rather crowdfund a good VCR

[BarryTheCrab]

Regarding the Sing-Mai…what is the device playing a tape? Is it not included?
And scoring a nos TBC-1000 is interesting in and of itself.
THIS site is probably the best way to find a primo 1980, you must contact Deter, he’s a member here.

[jeremfg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

And scoring a nos TBC-1000 is interesting in and of itself.
THIS site is probably the best way to find a primo 1980, you must contact Deter, he’s a member here.

I agree. I felt pretty lucky scoring this 2 years ago. I wish I knew the story behind it. The seller was the kind that liquidates bankrupt warehouses. It's this score that convinced me to upgrade the rest of my workflow to a more prosumer level with some of the best gear I could find.. And I loved the results. To the point I'm thinking of going back recapture all my earliest work, if I can get the first and most important part of the workflow. I'm just a hobbyist, a data hoarder, with a preservationist passion and addiction.

Thanks, yes I'm aware of Deter. I also remember reading a post he doesn't really do this any longer. Maybe I remember wrong. Still, even finding a repairable unit for him to work on seems impossible these days. At least when you live in Canada.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremfg

I wish I knew the story behind it. The seller was the kind that liquidates bankrupt warehouses.

That worries me. Are you sure the unit is good?

Starting in late 2019, maybe into early 2021, the marketplaces were flooded with bad TBC-1000s. Not just caps, but many issues. It seemed to be offline auctions (or online pickup auctions) that resulted in bulk buys of video gear. The sellers thought they struck it rich, but then many buyers started to return. The sellers were generally scummy, tried to fight the returns. I sometimes wonder if a DataVideo storage cache of bad gear was liquidated.

I've traveled the areas, lots of scummy people. Think Storage Wars, but way worse. The auction buyers (later resellers) know nothing. I often say they wouldn't know a TBC from a toaster, but they all have dollars signs in their eyes. But a TBC is only worth the investment if working, not in a random condition.

Quote:

Thanks, yes I'm aware of Deter. I also remember reading a post he doesn't really do this any longer. Maybe I remember wrong. Still, even finding a repairable unit for him to work on seems impossible these days. At least when you live in Canada.

He's growing tired of the poor nature of decks. Sometimes idiots messed with them, other times they've just aged beyond salvation. He recently had to reject some of my decks. My unit was too far gone, and I take care of my gear. The others were donors, long shots.

Those AG-1980 decks are money pits. It will cost you about $2k minimum per deck to actually get repaired. The worst part is it'll probably cost $500 to buy a boat anchor deck. AG-1980 is a risky buy now.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremfg

So I'd rather crowdfund a good VCR

As lovely as it would be, that's the tricky project, a TBC is trivial in comparison.

I would, at a rough estimate, say you'd need to dump a few million into getting tooled and a facility to produce video heads. They are (and I've got my metrologist hat on now) the most exquisitely manufactured item that will be encountered in a domestic situation if you take away silicone. They easily swallowed a large part of the BOM of machines, and at the dawn of the technology were the single most expensive component(s) of any video machine. The rejection ratio of head wafers was very high, even by the time they had reached commodity pricing. The tooling required to manufacture them was impressive, and I would guess any extant tooling is now beyond practical use.

You'd need a skilled engineering team plus allied professionals to get that one rolling. None of the large sources of heads (fill in your favourite Japanese/Korean Magnetics Co) would be remotely interested in it, and I like I say and tooling which happens to be left would be now, in likelihood, unusable.

Unless somebody finds a stock of heads, which could change the equation quite considerably.

Just as one example, the comparatively much, much simpler audio cassette mechanism is no longer a viable device to manufacture, and heads are all from the same low-quality source. When Marantz and similar are using the generic Tanashin (or clone) mechanisms that should be an indicator.

As one who straddles both communities, there's a considerably more active community in audio cassettes reproduction than video cassette reproduction, that I can assure you, and those guys can't petition one of the major players to even consider releasing their designs the 80s, which as I'll reiterate, is, to be frank, about an order of magnitude simpler than a VCR reproduction system in terms of magnetic-head engineering.

Somebody who could produce a good to excellent new quality audio cassette deck in the $1500-2500 price range could find a fully satisfied orderbook overnight. But even that isn't enough inertia.

I'd spend $5000 right now if somebody did come up with a genuinely excellent quality cassette deck! I spend several hundreds of dollars every year having my classics serviced!

Video machine electronics can be designed and manufactured comparatively simply, the CAD/Blender brigade could design an effective mechanism, but the video heads I'm almost certain would be the biggest hurdle to overcome.

[jeremfg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That worries me. Are you sure the unit is good?

I haven't had any problems with it so far. Haven't used it in a year tho so something could have developed since.

Good to know about that flood of bad units though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

He's growing tired of the poor nature of decks. Sometimes idiots messed with them, other times they've just aged beyond salvation. He recently had to reject some of my decks. My unit was too far gone, and I take care of my gear. The others were donors, long shots.

Those AG-1980 decks are money pits. It will cost you about $2k minimum per deck to actually get repaired. The worst part is it'll probably cost $500 to buy a boat anchor deck. AG-1980 is a risky buy now.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "repairable".
I'm almost at the point that "money is no object". Heck I even considered buying from an eBay scammer knowingly at some point, thinking that even an overpriced barely working unit could be a starting point to something. But there's just too many unknowns at this point, and my morals are the first obstacle here anyway. No way I'm encouraging such practice.

That's what a crazy "I won't settle for anything but the best" mindset does to you 😂

Thanks for your input lordsmurf. Always very informative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

As lovely as it would be, that's the tricky project, a TBC is trivial in comparison.

I fully agree. That was meant as a joke, hence the emoji.
As an engineer myself, I fully realize how improbable a new VCR will ever see the light of day. And even if it did, it would be crap. Look at the Compact Cassette, there's only one manufacturer of mechs left, and it's the cheapest one. Or how all "new" turntables are gimmicky crap.

The best we can ever hope for, and even that is a complete pipe dream because there's never going to be any demand for it, is one day we get some kind of gear that can scan a mangnetic tape directly, linearly... Kind of like SDR (Software Defined Radio) but for magnetic medium. Similar in some ways to the VHS-decode project, but without requiring to disassemble/rework old VCRs to use the heads. The advantage of something like this however, is that it would work for any kind of magnetic tape, not just VHS, enlarging the market somewhat.
How much of a pipedream is it? More than KryoFlux, which does the same for floppy disks. At least in this case, the hardware already exists. Floppy drives already gives direct access to the magnetic flux of the medium. And the digital nature of the information makes it soooooo much easier.

And yes, that's just my opinion. In no way am I an authority or subject matter expert

EDIT: I've just re-read your post, and somehow I missed the part about Tanashin. I see we had the same thing in mind

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

Regarding the Sing-Mai…what is the device playing a tape? Is it not included?

No, It's a capture device at a whopping 27MHz sampling rate, built in TBC and a very sophisticated pro amp including luma and chrma DNR, A unique comb filter for composite input with 3 options, notch, line and frame (aka 3D comb filter). It has SDI digital output, typical rec.601 525/625 SMPTE-259M standard, that needs to be interfaced into computer using SDI/PCIe, SDI/USB3 or SDI/Thunderbolt.

[Diopter_Doctor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Even if DataVideo decided to do something (and they won't), this would not be a fast process. Several years minimum. But you have a project now. Would you like to see it done sooner, or later, or never? Time has value, and waiting (and on an unknown) often isn't the best solution. Others have waited, usually due to cheapness, and seen prices only rise, and gear become more scarce. Don't do that to yourself, as many others here have over the years.

A few years ago I had similar thoughts of: "Can't we FPGA anything nowadays?" especially with the pixelFX morph promising TBC functionality before it came out. After reading for days (weeks?), I got the feeling that waiting on a project like that with hardware/software designed to work with 20+ year old media was very impractical. My tapes were shot in the late 80's & 90's and I wasn't willing to risk losing family videos to save some money. I'm glad I got my TBC-1000 when I did. Money I can get back, videos/memories I can't.

If the community somehow did design a new generation frame-TBC, great! But I personally wasn't willing to wait and that comes down to each individual's comfort level and amount of disposable income. Just my

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diopter_Doctor

A few years ago I had similar thoughts of: "Can't we FPGA anything nowadays?" especially with the pixelFX morph promising TBC functionality before it came out. After reading for days (weeks?), I got the feeling that waiting on a project like that with hardware/software designed to work with 20+ year old media was very impractical. My tapes were shot in the late 80's & 90's and I wasn't willing to risk losing family videos to save some money. I'm glad I got my TBC-1000 when I did. Money I can get back, videos/memories I can't.

Snell & Wilcox, Ensemble Designs, Aja, Grass Valley and others FPGA'ed it a decade ago and it was more than "Practical" because it eliminated the conversion back to analog and everything is controlled via a menu so you will get to turn things on and off and watch the changes instantly without having to disconnect the equipement from the chain, capture samples and compare them later, Since I started using such devices I ditched all consumer stuff. Few years ago these things were almost for free plus the shipping online, You missed that window.

[Diopter_Doctor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Snell & Wilcox, Ensemble Designs, Aja, Grass Valley and others FPGA'ed it a decade ago and it was more than "Practical" because it eliminated the conversion back to analog and everything is controlled via a menu.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with these, but interested. Looking at them I assume these were all industry grade tech? If these FPGA TBCs are out there, could you not copy the instructions onto an new FPGA and make more? And if so, why hasn't anyone on this thread tried that? Genuine questions.

[latreche34]

SingMai just did that and they have a device for sale right now made in 2021 and it is the cheapest you can get for the features it has ($700), It is the post right above yours or check post #27.

[Diopter_Doctor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

SingMai just did that and they have a device for sale right now made in 2021 and it is the cheapest you can get for the features it has ($700), It is the post right above yours or check post #27.

Have you posted any recordings you've made with this device, yet?

[latreche34]

They are right in my signature.