Sony CCD-TRV328 camcorder cut my Hi8 tape on rewind?
 

i just got Sony CCD-TRV328 camcorder off ebay to digitize some Hi8 tapes.

i put a tape in the camcorder and it played just fine. i hit rewind. it rewound about 50 mins of play time then the tape reached the beginning with no issues. i pressed play to adjust levels with the histogram in virtualdub before capturing. virtualdub kept freezing any time i pulled up the histogram so i decided to just capture with default settings. a few minutes had passed. i hit rewind again. the tape goes to the beginning then the camcorder starts beeping and there's a message asking me to eject the tape. i take the tape out, open the top and see that the physical tape has been cut.

the camcorder came with the printed manual and it doesn't say there's different rewind speeds in stop mode. but it mentions some possible ones in play mode.
https://www.sony.com/electronics/sup...trv328/manuals

• any suggestions on how to get tapes to rewind so they don't go so fast that the physical tape gets cut?
  
• does this mean i have to rewind tapes in play mode instead of stop mode to be safe?
  
• was this a one off?
  
• is it possible this camcorder is damaged and that was the cause?
  
• is this a known issue with this model of camcorder?

i've never had this issue with a vcr (knock on wood)

i looked through some videos on youtube about repairing hi8 tapes and they all involve taking the tape out of the casing in some way. i'm afraid i'll accidentally damage the tape during this process so i'm going to send this off to a tape repair shop to get it fixed.

TL;DR
tape rewind was so fast it cut the tape. is this normal? how do i prevent this?

Most likely the clear leader adhesive gave up due to age, just fix it, you don't have any other choice.

thanks for the reply.

can you elaborate? when you say the clear leader adhesive gave up do you mean on the camcorder or the tape? sorry i'm not that familiar with the parts of the hardware.

i'm trying to determine if the camcorder is faulty and i should return it or if it's an issue with the tape.

On the tape off course, Fixing tapes requires skills, not for everyone, If you don't feel comfortable send it to some to fix it for you.

i took the tape to a local repair shop. they said they can fix it. so far i don't think the camcorder is the culprit. i'll try archiving some other tapes this weekend and hopefully that goes smoothly.

the shop said part of the tape sheared off. it was kind of hard for me to see when i examined it. their best guess is because the tape got stuck to itself. which i've never heard of before. i told them it played just fine so they don't think it will be an issue going forward but they'll tell me more after they've fixed it.

looks like a simple repair job thankfully but they're going to have to do some splicing. i hope the part they splice is empty or at least i only lose a few seconds of video.

now that i've encountered this i would like to learn how to do tape repair. i'm thinking of getting some hi8 tapes to practice with. i just didn't want to risk losing the footage on this one.

That repair shop sounds incompetent.

For starters, never splice a tape. You'll screw up the video heads. Any snapped tape = 2 new tapes, period, no exception.

A tape can stick to itself, but that means the tape has issue. Don't be dumb and stick it back into the same player. So for them to say "not an issue" is somewhat ridiculous.

The eBay camera is a likely bad, return it.

do you repair tapes lordsmurf? i don't think they've started fixing the tape yet. i can get it back from them and send it your way.

how does a spliced tape screw up videos heads? i'm genuinely curious. they sounded pretty confident about the splicing. sounded like they've done it many times before.

how does that work? haven't heard of this technique before.

to be fair to them, that was more of me being optimistic about the situation. when i said it played fine they were like ok good. so i just interpreted their comment to mean things should work out.

based on what you've said here i plan on doing that

I no longer physically repair/re-shell Hi8/Video8/D8 tapes. Too small. I no longer have the dexterity for it (MS). I'll do VHS/S-VHS and VHS-C/S-VHS-C, but that's it.

I don't care if they've done it 100 times (and ruined 100 cameras/VCRs in the process). Anything foreign dragging across heads is bad. And any breaks in the tape runs risk of snags. When a tape is split, it's split. Take half out, put it in "new" (donor) shell.

the cut happened right near the start of the tape. i don't think there's enough there to put in a new shell. i'll just ask them to skip the splicing, do a clean cut and refit the remaining tape in the shell. sucks that i have to lose that footage at the start of the tape tho.

sorry about your MS.

and thanks for the reply.

The repair shop gave a clue, If the tape is sticking to itself that means it has dry mould, You are lucky that only few seconds from the beginning of tape are affected and they have most likely unstuck it. When you get the tape back don't fast forward it, just let play through while capturing it because it may have some mould at the other end of the tape (the supply reel).

A good splicing job will not damage the heads, If they've done it before they most likely have an idea on how it works.

So did the tape break off at the leader, or further along? If it just broke at the leader that's a pretty easy fix by yourself. While some may howl at this method, I've simply applied Scotch tape between the video tape and the leader, especially if it's something that only needs played once for digitizing.

While I'm not saying the camcorder caused the break, 8mm/Hi8 rewinders do exist (or use a spare camera if on-hand for rewinding). If you have many tapes it would be a good idea to use a rewinder or spare camera to save wear and tear on your capture camcorder.

Beware of this. :no2:

1. Scotch is a brand, not a tape.
2. The Scotch branded "Magic tape" is thick and comparatively weak.
3. If that tape slides across the video heads, there is a strong chance of the heads being damaged.

Never seen one.

The usual sign of a break caused by the tape sticking to itself is a long, diagonal tear which is almost impossible to repair and play successfully. The tape ends would need to be recut in a splicing block before being spliced onto leader tapes, making sure the spliced sections never touch the rotating drum. Inevitably some program is lost.

If by "Scotch" tape you mean typical desk-top office tape don't use it. The adhesives in that sort of tape can ooze/migrate and as a result gum up heads, guides, adjacent layers of tape in the spool, etc. Especially over time. A splice that is not perfectly aligned and butted could foul a head as the high speed spinning heads pass over the splice.

The "two new tape" fix mentioned can involve losing a couple inches of tape either side of the break.

Back in the days of tape, especially audio tape, there was a specific type of splicing tape made for splicing audio tape. It was as about strong as the audio tape, used a stable adhesive, and splices were not as spatially critical. While not a good solution for video tape, especially 8mm tape, it may be OK for the leader portion that never reaches the video heads.

WHY? Audio tape moved relatively slowly (typically 7.5 inches per second for quality reel-to-reel tape) and a splice passed over the head once per playback. The head was wide, smooth, and covered the full width of the tape. The splicing technique amounted to a cross fade between the two sides of the tape splice. In contrast an 8mm video head is tiny and mounted in a small opening in the spinning drum. It covers a very small area of the tape and is moving over the tape very fast, over 12 feet per second, and will pass over the splice on the order of 150 times per playback of that portion of the tape. Any slight imperfection in the tape surface, such as at a splice, could snag the head or opening edge. Because the track is so small the splice point may appear as a drop out or glitch in the video scans.

The reason for clear leader at the ends of a tape is VCR's typically "see" the clear leader and know they are at the end of the tape and stop. Without clear leader the tape may run to the hub and jerk to a stop, potentially snapping.

I will send you a picture next time I need to do one.

i initially thought it broke at the leader but when the tape shop looked at it they showed me that it was just near the leader. i'll probably lose a few seconds of video from the short piece of tape by the leader. hopefully it's just blank and doesn't matter.

after looking at videos of the procedure online i wasn't sure that i wouldn't make a mistake and i didn't want take the chance of damaging this particular tape. i need to get some blank hi8 tapes to practice with.

so now i have to get another camcorder just for rewinding? this vhs project gets bigger and bigger by the day.

i've also read some posts on different sites saying dedicated rewinders can cut tapes. you've probably had a good experience with them but going forward i'm just going to do all my fast forwarding and rewinding in play mode not in stop mode to stay safe. i only have about 20 hi8 tapes to capture so not a huge deal.


that's exactly what it looked like. so i guess the folks at this tape shop know a thing or 2. what's strange is i was able to rewind the tape all the way to the beginning in stop mode without issue. i pressed play to adjust levels and contrast. it only played for a min or 2 then i stopped it and hit rewind and it cut. i keep thinking if the tape was sticking to itself then it shouldn't have been able to rewind to the beginning without issue that first time.

i've resigned myself to this fact. but it''ll only be a few seconds at the most so i think it'll be ok.

i've returned the camcorder and ordered a new one. finding a camcorder in used/like new condition is a challenge. i've got a refurbished one.

got the tape back from the tape shop. it played fine. a few seconds at the beginning are lost.

at the start of the tape where they fixed it a lot of tracking/warping is displayed on the screen. it goes back to normal a few seconds later. i'm curious if a tbc can fix that. it's only a few seconds though so i don't think i'm shelling out $2k for a tbc just for that.

haven't captured the tape yet. i got a sony ccd-trv338 to replace the trv328. i forgot to check if the 338 has s-video. turns out it doesn't. i returned the 338 and ordered another 238. hopefully this one works great and i don't have to return another camcorder.

- That doesn't sound like they did a good repair job.
- That's not what TBC is for.

since the part with the leader at start of the tape is where the cut happened, wouldn't there be some distortion since it's just regular tape wrapped around the reel now?

maybe warping isn't the right term for the image distortion i saw but there was definitely a bunch of tracking. if tbc's can't fix that, i'm not sure what their value is. that's the most common problem with the tapes i have.

TBCs fix signal issues (both visible and not), not physical/mangled tape issues.

Nothing can fix a video coming from a tape splice going across the video head, Because the way fields are laid down on the tape in an angle and the splice is a 90 degree cut, So you can never get a clean video. those few seconds long when the splice goes over the drum are lost forever. and try to avoid doing so because you may damage the video heads.

based on the discussion in this thread i asked them not to splice and just put the tape around the reel to avoid any damage to the video heads. but i imagine the same still applies about not getting a clean image.

No, You have to have the clear leader for video tapes, If the optical sensor doesn't detect the clear leader while rewinding the tape the motor will shoot through the end and could cause another break. Just capture the tape the way it is and edit out the scrambled part after capture, That's it, you don't have any other choice.

looking at the tape, i can't really tell if they added a clear leader or not. i'm assuming they did from what you've said about how the optical sensor works.

i started the capture. the tape got about halfway and cut again. looks like one of those diagonal tears that happens when the tape sticks together. i'll need to get the remaining tape transferred to a new casing.

i put a different tape in and it got stuck in the camcorder. i don't know if the tape that got cut damaged the camcorder or if my tapes are just old and degraded. do i need to get them all transferred to new cases? i haven't had any of these kinds of issues with vhs tapes. only hi8. the hi8 tapes are between 15 and 20 years old. but they've barely been played since the recordings were made.

If they are breaking along a shallow diagonal line as before it's almost certainly tape winds sticking due to mould or some other "gluey" substance. To avoid it happening again the tapes need to be treated to remove whatever is causing winds to stick to each other.

i disconnected all power to the camcorder and was able to take out the 2nd cassette. now the tape is cut on this 2nd cassette. not sure if it got cut in the process of me trying to take it out or during playback or if it was cut before i put it in.

i've been doing some reading and it looks like 8mm cassettes are more susceptible to wear and tear than vhs.

can you elaborate on what you mean by treated? i'd like to know so i can figure out how to find a service provider in my era. is there a way to determine if a tape needs treatment or should i just get them all treated just to be safe?

Again the most likely cause is mould attached to the edges of the tape pack. You might see evidence of white or grey mould on the top surface of the tape packs viewed through the clear plastic window of the cassettes. I'm guessing removing this is not the sort of thing most shops would attempt. Someone like Specs Bros or Vidipax would be qualified I should think, if anybody was.

there's no visible mould on the majority of the tapes i have. including the 2 that got cut. so i'm not sure how to determine if they are safe to play or not.

looks like vidipax is out of business but specs bros are still operational. i'll get in touch with them if no one local can tackle the job.