JVC 7800U image moves up, down?
 

Not sure what's going on, but while editing some captures, I noticed the station logo move up a few lines, then back down again a minute or 2 later. It's not vertical jitter. I thought it was the tape somehow, but then noticed it happening with no tape inserted... the "L1" displayed on screen was also doing it. What could be causing this? I'm patched through a Panasonic WJ-AVE5 video mixer, but even if connected direct to the capture card, it's the same thing. I'm using a Hauppauge HVR-1800, but it also happens on a Hauppauge HVR-1265, and a USB-Live2. It also doesn't matter if the TBC is enabled or not. It's definitely the machine.

What could be causing this, and is it fixable? I have a JVC 5911U as well. It's a non-TBC unit, but the video mixer has a TBC of it's own, similar to the Panasonic DMR-ES15, but it doesn't mess with the colors like the Panasonic. It needs servicing though... the tape sled, or whatever it's called, seems to be stuck in the inserted position, not allowing any tape to be inserted. It already needed new belts or something, as rewinding or fast forward starts off slow, then grinds as soon as it speeds up, causing it to stop and the machine shuts down. I was following a video showing how to fix the grinding, but I screwed something up with the sled. It won't slide back up to accept a tape anymore. I was keeping it for parts, but I'll bring it in for servicing if the 7800U can't be fixed. My city still has a vcr repair guy. :)

Any ideas?

Here's a clip of the image shifting.

Is it only happened on this blue screen "test pattern"?

No, it happens on all my tapes. That blue screen is the machine without any tape inserted. I noticed it before on older captures of the same tapes when I went to splice out some dropped frames with a new capture of that section. The Woodstock logo didn't match up, with one clip's logo being shifted left or right by ~2 pixels, or up/down by 2 pixels, even though it was the same tape. All I did was rewind, without ejecting then reinserting. That's why I thought it was the tapes. But when I see it happen even without a tape inserted, it sounds more like the hardware. I had it serviced a while back, but the issue with misaligned logos while splicing was happening before that. I can fix it through avisynth as a last resort, by simply fastforwarding through the clip using my mouse, looking for any jumps up or down, then cropping and adding borders as needed, but if it can be fixed in the shop, all the better. Also, it's connected through svideo, if that helps at all.

This may be capture card related. All Hauppauge cards can act the same (for the problems/issues), but not all are the same for quality. None of the cards you have there is highly regarded, with the Live2 being least-worst.

Well, I've never heard anybody else say their picture was moving up and down while using a Hauppauge unit. Even lollo2 uses Hauppauge, or at least he's posted that he has one. I agree not all are the same quality, which is why I prefer the HVR-1800. It's older, but it's more stable, and selecting 640x480 in AmaRecTV actually resizes the image, not just crop it down like the USB-Live2. It turns out my footage is 640x480, verified by comparing to official uploads on YouTube. But if I capture 720x480, it has 2 borders on either side, 20 pixels wide each, resulting in a 680x480 image that's stretched.. circles are wide, and the dots above j's and i's in the on-screen texts are small rectangles instead of squares. If I capture 640x480, it has the same 40 pixels worth of borders, circles and dots are squished. So I'm capturing 680x480 then cropping to a perfect 640x480, and everything looks normal. I'm not sure why the borders would be the same at both 720x480 and 640x480. That's a strange one.

I just wish my 5911U was working properly to compare vcrs. I guess I'll take it into the shop first, then ask the repair guy about the 7800U while I'm there.

-- merged --

My video mixer has ports for an external tv to monitor everything which would make things so much easier. That way if a glitch happens, I can compare the signal with the tv before it even reaches the capture card. I'm going to see if I can find a small 13" or 14" unit.

-- merged --

Well, although my 2nd vcr isn't working to compare with, I still have 2 copies of my tapes on DVD from when I tried one of those vhs to dvd machines back in 2006. Although the quality looked fine on a crt tv, it looked like crap on a pc monitor, even though captured at the HQ 1hr per disk setting. It also dropped and inserted frames all over the place, which is why I dubbed it twice. But since I kept the discs, I decided to capture 1 of them just now, playing from my DMR-ES16. I then scanned through the timeline in virtualdub, dragging the slider with my mouse while focused on the logo in the bottom right corner. It did not jump or move at all. Compared to the capture of the same tape as the disc, and it had 16 instances of the logo moving up or down. So given that, it's not the capture device, but the HVR-7800U.

This sort of "odd movement" error is not uncommon, mostly with post-Win7 (8,10,11) OS. My suspicion is here.

You misunderstand my Hauppauge comment. Hauppauge drivers tend to act somewhat universal, even when the Hauppauge cards vary greatly in quality between models. So a proper troubleshoot of the VCR will entirely remove any Hauppauge card.

The "borders" issue is related to aspect ratio (and padding). I don't think you're doing it right. I don't have time to help more on that issues, but perhaps latreche34 can help you here, as he has a good grasp of this concept, has posted about it many times to help others.

I have to correct myself... I captured the next disc in the pile, and it did have movement, so it's not the vcr. As for the aspect ratio, all I did was select the 720x480 @ 29.97, or 640x480 @ 29.97, then eventually 680x480 @ 29.97. It's the same in AmaRecTV and VirtualDub. But a hockey game from 1996 takes up virtually the entire 720x480 frame, with only a few pixels worth of bordering.

-- merged --

OK... captured at 720x480, then cropped the borders off with null transform in vdub, then resized in vdub to 720x480 using 3:2 aspect ratio... everything looks normal. Not sure why some of the official uploads were 640x480, as they don't looked cropped. So, I guess I'm capturing at 720x480.

James Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcwhS3VgHpI

Tragically Hip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jySG9v3TPgY

The movement up and down in the second youtube link is camera related during shooting. Also be carful with 680x480, it is not a D1 format, it is a computer format, The proper way of capturing analog tapes is 720x480, crop a total of 16 pixels horizontally in any left-right proportion necessary, this will leave you with 704x480 non square pixel, this should be displayed in 4:3 ratio where the pixels are horizontally stretched, this is normal, that's how it was intended to be displayed, When encoding to a compressed format make sure you set the pixel aspect ratio (sample aspect ratio SAR) to SAR=10/11.

Here is a post explaining this step by step.

The movement I'm talking about is in the 2nd post... captured from the blue screen without a tape inserted yet. You see the "L1" on the screen shift upwards (or down... can't remember).

The reason I captured at 680x480, was when capturing at 720x480 it gave me 2 borders on either side, totaling 40 pixels/lines, with a stretched image. But if I captured at 640x480, it gave the same 40 pixels/lines of borders, and looked squished. But at 680x480, cropping the same 40 pixels/lines of borders gave me 640x480, and everything looked normal. I said above that if I captured at 720x480, then cropped and resized to 720x480 using 3:2 aspect ratio, it looked normal. But after further inspection, it was stretched. So, I'm going back to 640x480.

It turns out the vcr is actually displaying 704x480, not 720x480. I confirmed by capturing the blue screen at 720x480 and looked at it in virtualdub with null transform. The blue screen had 16 pixels/lines worth of border, and a baseball game on the tape before Woodstock kicked in had the same 16 pixels/lines worth of borders. But when Woodstock kicked in, those borders increase to 40 pixels/lines. My cable company messed up with my ppv, which is why I had a baseball game instead of a concert. I had to borrow some footage from a friend of mine, that's why I had the baseball game. :smack:

Here's a pic of the James Brown set, as well as a pic from my tapes of the same set, at 640x480. Look at the Woodstock logo on the banner at the rear of the stage... they're both perfectly round. I'm sticking with 640x480.

edit: sorry, you already explained the 704x480... my bad.

Because those large borders have been introduced somewhere in the dubbing or broadcasting process, they became part of the video frame now.

It's not in the dubbing, as I said my capture started with the baseball game, then the ppv kicked in once I phoned my cable company. So on the same tape it goes from 16 pixels of borders to 40 pixels of borders within a few frames. But as I said earlier, if I capture at 720x480, it's still 40 pixels worth of borders, and everything's stretched. That's why I was confused. I didn't think they added that much borders on a 640x480 4:3 broadcast back in 1999. That would mean the original broadcast was 680x480. Which doesn't make sense.

edit: admittedly though, I probably would have realized this sooner, but the concert footage kicks in 40 minutes into the tape, and I've always just fast forwarded to that point. All the other tapes have the borders, so I just assumed.

-- merged --

Well, I figured it out. Turns out it's the mixer causing the frame to move. I guess I now get to try ebay's guaranteed return policy. Also you're correct about 720x480... I think the stretching I saw was from my monitor set at a lower resolution so I could monitor the capture stats from across the room while watching tv. I think it was stretching the image. It's still a 680x480 visible image, but I'll just keep the borders.

-- merged --

Well, it turns out the mixer only has the issue when outputting through 'record video out 1', but the image seems to be stable if outputting through 'record video out 2'. 2 inputs, 2 outputs, and 2 TBCs... I'm guessing 1 per output. So I'm keeping it. I like the fact it has a VU meter to see what the audio's doing... I have the source input at 100%, but have to drop the master output to 50-55% or it's in the red. I know when just connected to the capture card without the mixer, I have to drop Window's audio to less than 50% or it blows my ears out. Setting it during capture should make things easier, and hopefully avoid any clipping during the digital conversion.

Also, just as a test, I connected through my USB-Live2 dongle. The image doesn't seem as detailed as the HVR-1800, but the colors out of the box are incredible. With the 1800, the gamma's really dark, making shadows on faces really dark, but with the USB-Live2, it's almost perfect. I'll be switching the the dongle instead. I just need to remember to reset the levels/proc amp settings before every capture. I thought it was a bug that it reverts to the default settings before every capture, but it turns out the driver expects the WinTV app, or it reverts to the first use.