I've got no reason to suspect it to be otherwise. It looks GREAT hooked directly to monitor. Even on problem tapes, the image really is quite good all things considered. but ya, I'm going to keep trying stuff.

Does anyone even test/repair vcr decks anymore?

Repair VCRs? Yes, there are fix-it shops here and there.

I repair our equipment, as time permits, and the need arises. Only the worst errors require outside assistance, usually to re-solder components, or to get a second opinion look-over. An excellent shop is Jots Electronics in Arlington, Texas (Dallas area).

Well, now I have something to add to this thread as well ...

Having first read this thread over a week ago, I saw what appeared to be 4 strikes in a row with the current AVT-8710 crop from B&H -- bad batch? -- and so I decided to go Tuco's route of ordering the CTB-100 (new) on eBay from "weesolutions" (Ambery), in the hope that the silver box with the blue stickers would be ""the one that works" ... (Although I actually would have preferred to go with B&H, since I've ordered numerous things from them before) ...

And when I first tried out the CTB-100 last night, I was ready to send it back because of the way it freaked out on the JVC blue screen -- until I went back to re-read this thread tonight, and I noticed the quotes above ... I've only used the CTB-100 with a single pre-recorded very "clean-playing" S-VHS tape -- a "Picture Perfect" test/reference tape played on the SR-V10U that I also just bought -- and the CTB-100 seemed to have no effect (negative or positive) on that tape's playback ...

So before I worry too much about this CTB-100 (or send it back), I guess my question is -- What kind of "blue-screen freak-out" should I expect?

What I'm getting now on the JVC blue screen with the CTB-100 is a rapid flickering, sometimes combined with other weird stuff, like a partial videotape frame -- left over in its frame buffer? -- and some strange blue curves at the top, and part of the screen "dimmed" sometimes ... But nothing like the bizarre "ghosting" of the OP's (first) AVT-8710 ...

As Tuco said, "I can live with a messed up JVC OSD" -- if that's all it is ... Is this kind of "blue-screen freak-out" just par for the course?

Thanks,
Kevin

My CTB-100 acts exactly the same way as you have described on the JVC OSD, but I have confirmed this unit to be working. Its no where as bad as the AVT-8710 I got from B&H; that one had problems in regular video.

If there was no negative impact on the video then that is a good sign. Remember, the TBC isn't there to enhance the image; it just stabilizes the signal. On a "clean" tape that already plays well you shouldn't expect any noticeable image quality difference. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your capture card will like it without the TBC because it is more sensitive to erroneous signals.


I'm beginning to think it is(can others confirm their working TBC's freak out on the JVC OSD?). My CTB-100 goes nuts on the JVC OSD, but I can tell its working because on a tape with bad vertical jumping, the TBC eliminates the jumping almost entirely on some bad tapes and completely on some better, but not so stable tapes. I recently narrowed the jumping for this particular tape down to my SR-V10U and instead played the tape on my Toshiba W-707 with the CTB-100 connected and it worked fine. Another example of one of those tapes that just doesn't like my SR-V10U, although there aren't many.

Thanks, Tuco! That's really useful to know ... :)

"My CTB-100 goes nuts on the JVC OSD" is another great way to describe it ... After my previous post here, I put the JVC OSD menu through its paces -- with the CTB-100 in the mix -- and got even more bizarre behavior (too difficult to describe here) ...

However, since the CTB-100 does NOT seem to have adversely affected actual video playback, I'm a lot less concerned now about it being "broken" ...
So now the relevant question for me is -- Does it actually work???

Is there any easy way of telling whether the CTB-100 is actually "doing its job" -- short of searching my entire tape collection for one that plays "badly enough" for the CTB-100 to make a difference? I reckon I must have some like that -- or I wouldn't have considered buying the CTB-100 in the first place -- but finding such a tape anytime soon could be a "challenge", and I have a limited time frame for returning this ...

Here are my current (working!) resources:

-- one JVC SR-V10U VCR, with a second one supposedly on the way
-- one ATI 600 USB card supposedly on the way
-- one (Toshiba) VHS VCR
-- one (JVC) DVD player
-- a number of pre-recorded (presumably copy-protected?) S-VHS and VHS tapes
-- a number of home-recorded S-VHS and VHS tapes (that I'd rather not have to search through)

Thanks,
Kevin

The only freaking out my AVT-8710 does with the JVC OSD is the "checkboard" pattern seen in this thread: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681

The problem can be traced to how the video capture chip in the AVT-8710 and other TBCs handles "240p" video. It should also be noted that the glitch only happens with the S-Video input and not the composite input. The artifact also happens when you connect old game consoles that output 240p (like the Super Nintendo) to the AVT-8710 via S-video.

Well, after reading that entire thread posted above, I unplugged the S-Video input cable (to my CTB-100) and plugged in the composite input cable instead, and -- there was no noticeable difference ... The CTB-100 still freaked out -- in a variety of different ways -- with the OSD of the JVC SR-V10U, but it still seemed to have no effect -- either positive or negative -- on actual video playback (of a good S-VHS recording from 1989) ...

So, what I'm personally taking from that thread is this quote from lordsmurf:

And so, the question for me remains (as posted earlier) -- Is there any easy way of telling whether the CTB-100 is actually "doing its job"?

Thanks,
Kevin

I know you are strapped for time before you have to decide to return it, but I can't think of any other way (at the moment) other than finding an unstable tape and trying to pass it to your capture card (I know you don't it yet) and see if you suffer from frame drops and unwanted "digital artifacts" - kind of like what you see with dropouts in a digital TV signal. Then connect the TBC and see if that corrects the problem. If you notice a stable video output without dropped frames, then you can assume it is doing its job. However, the TBC can still do its job and not remove jitter 100%. I had to switch VCR's to get one tape to play without jumping, but I couldn't have capped it without the CTB-100. You can also test on a TV as well.

Right now, testing with a clean recording isn't going to give you any insight as to whether or not its working. At least you know it isn't harming the picture, so thats a good sign.

Well, I may have spoken too soon on that ... I sat down last night to watch (just watch) my excellent S-VHS recording from 1989 -- with the CTB-100 in the mix, to verify my earlier statement -- and I started seeing sporadic frozen frames, so I had to take out the CTB-100 in order to enjoy the show (a reunion concert by The Who) ...

The only flaw in the 2-hour playback was some very isolated "tearing" at the top of the screen once in a while, which I don't know whether the CTB-100 would -- or is supposed to -- fix ... Other than that, the playback looked and sounded very much like a broadcast or a DVD (with all SR-V10U features turned off, except for TBC/DNR) ...

So, is the sporadic freeze-framing by the CTB-100, when playing an excellent S-VHS recording, to be expected -- or is this a bad sign?

Kevin

It may or may not. In some cases it may even make it worse. Check out this thread for some tearing solutions: VHS tearing even WITH TBC and JVC SVHS player.

I believe it is normal to occasionally see frozen frames or fields, but it shouldn't be often. On some sources I see this happen maybe once or twice in a two hour period and on other sources I don't see it at all.

However, I noticed last night that my CTB-100 actually made a source look worse when I was capturing an old 1981 home recording, which is seriously degraded. I stopped capping it until I can stabilize it better (might not be able to) and get the image adjustments just right, but I did do some raw tests. See clips below( no audio ):

NOTE: VCR's built-in "TBC" and DNR were disabled, except where labeled otherwise.

1. SR-V10U -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/1.SRV10U_No_TBC.mpg

Picture is unstable and you can see flickering from where the capture card choked on the signal.

2. SR-V10U -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/2.S...ith_CTB100.mpg

Connecting the CTB-100 made things 10x worse. Increased vertical jitter and frozen fields; virtually unwatchable.

3. SR-V10U ( Picture Stabalizer ON) -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB ( NO CTB-100 )
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/3.S..._No_CTB100.mpg

I took the CTB-100 out of the loop and tried using the VCR's picture stabilization feature. This reduced the vertical jumping a bit, but still "jitterbugged".

4. SR-V10U ( Built-in TBC/DNR ON) -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/4.S...ND_CTB100_.mpg

Put the CTB-100 back in the loop and turned on the VCR's built-in TBC/DNR. Fewer frozen fields and jitter than with no CTB-100, but still bad.

5. SR-V10U ( Built-in TBC/DNR OFF, Picture Stabilizer ON) -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/5.S...bilization.mpg

I finally had to combine the CTB-100 with the SR-V10U's built-in picture stabilizer to get a semi-decent result. Still a few freeze issues, not far fewer than any of the previous methods.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is an issue with the CTB-100 or some other variable. VCR and cables have been ruled out. Tried a TV Wonder 600 PCIe and WinTV HVR-1600 and got the same results. The tape also plays fine on a regular CRT.

I know the CTB-100 has helped in the past, so maybe this tape is just beyond the CTB-100's capabilities?

Well, I tried to watch the same good (probably not "excellent") 1989 S-VHS recording of The Who -- once again, with the CTB-100 in the loop -- and after just 10 minutes or so, I had to take out the CTB-100 again in order to maintain my sanity ... It was driving me nuts to see multiple frozen frames/fields per minute while I was trying to enjoy a 2-hour concert ... (BTW, my ATI TV Wonder 600 USB card should be arriving today) ...

So, what do you think (Tuco)? Should I just (try to!) return/exchange the CTB-100 now, or is there some other course of action you'd recommend?

Thanks,
Kevin

That's a really hard question for me to answer because we are only talking about one tape here and one VCR; there could be other variables at play. If you have your doubts, and it sounds like you do, about whether it is working properly or not and your running out of return time, then request a refund and hold on to the money for when you have your capture setup ready and at least another VCR to test with. Then, you can use that money later to buy another TBC and try again. Or if you don't mind possibly losing( if you determine later that your TBC is in fact defective ) some money you can try negotiating a partial refund. However, your unit came brand new and from a retailer who is basically running shop on eBay, so I have a feeling he will want the unit back.

My CTB-100 I know helps on some sources and makes others worse, so until I have other TBCs to compare it to I am going to withhold judgement on this unit. I do know one thing for certain: it works better than the unit from B&H that I had previously.

These TBC's aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so you can't really lose out (except for shipping costs) if you decide to return it.

Hope that helps!

I'm in process of doing 3 things right now:
- captures of a "normal" AVT-8710 that works fine, including the JVC blue screen
- scanning the Elite Video BVP-4 Plus proc amp manual
- writing the advanced ATI 600 USB capture guide

A lot of it was done last week, but still not 100% on any of the three as of yet.
Trying to get that done this week.

Your CTB-100 doesn't seem to be working right. It looks like the frame buffer is screwed up somehow, holding onto a field instead of updating it with new video. I had a similar tape (a dub of a home video recorded in 1984), and had zero issues with the AVT-8710 I have. I have NEVER seen the AVT-8710 freeze the last "good" frame of video when it encounters a bad dropout in the tape, it always goes to the color bars (on VCRs that don't have bluescreens, its annoying to see those bars flicker on the screen of the final product, but I can edit it out). I would be interested to see the insides of these units, its likely newer runs have different chips vs. the "good and working" old ones. High res photos of the inside of the AVT-8710 are up on this board if you want to compare.

In terms of actual horizontal jitter correction, the CTB-100/AVT-8710 is fairly weak, if you noticed the Digipure TBC does a MUCH better job of fixing those errors. It does correct some of the vertical jumping that you are seeing with the stabilizer off. The most important thing about the CTB-100 is that it provides a clean and continuous video signal for the video capture card to lock onto so that it doesn't drop frames.

For reference, these are the chips that power my circa 2004 AVT-8710

Video input/digitizer (IC1): Phillips SAA7114H
Video output(IC5): Phillips SAA7129H
ROM? (IC6): Labelled LTB-100 V2.0 A0411

There is also a jumper on the board labelled INT/EXT... it should be jumped for INT. I'm guessing this is for the genlock option on higher end models, INT likely references "internal clock".

Yes, it does help ... Thanks, Tuco ...

I think I still have more than a week to decide about my CTB-100, and I did just get my ATI 600 USB card today -- and therein lies another story for the forum (but not just yet!) -- and I do have several more VCR's on the way (plus a bid on another one) ...

So I think I'll just wait a bit on returning it, while I keep experimenting with other tapes, with other VCR's, and with trying to actually capture video instead of just watch it ... :cool:

Kevin

P.S. NJRoadfan, I think your latest posts here were probably meant for Tuco, but do they also apply to the frequent "freeze-frame" situation with my CTB-100? Thanks!

Yes, I viewed your sample clips. Assuming you see similar problems directly connected to a TV, your unit seems to have some sort of frame buffer (I guess you could call it freeze-field?) problem with it. One way to test these units is to feed them 100% perfect video, use the S-video output from a cable box or ATSC tuner. If the CTB-100 still has problems with 100% perfect NTSC video, then its faulty.

Thanks NJRoadfan! I'll crack open my CTB-100 later tonight and compare the chips along with photos.

Actually, those were Tuco's sample clips -- I'm the one who had frequent "freeze-field" problems with my CTB-100 directly connected to a TV ...

But thanks for the ideas there! :thumb: It sounds like they would also apply to my situation ...

Kevin

I just cracked open my CTB-100 and here is what I found ( sorry, I haven't taken pictures yet ):

1. IC1: Phillips SAA7114H ( no difference )
2. IC5: Phillips SAA7129AH ( Your's: SAA7129H )
3. IC6: LTB101 v2.1 S1101 ( Your's: LTB-100 V2.0 A0411 )

As for the video output circuit, did you mean to say SAA7129AH or SAA7129H (no A )? Just checking in case it was a typo.

I haven't compared mine to the high-res photos of the AVT-8710 on this forum yet due to lack of time, but I'll compare them tomorrow. I just wanted to throw this out there for now.

Thanks again,
Dave

Also, here's that post: AVT-8710 TBC specs?

Small images are in-post, and the high resolution shots are inside the attached RAR archive file.
That was posted almost two years ago.


LS EDIT: Still have that same TBC, works fine.

Its a SAA7129H, no "A", the chip you have is likely just a revised version. IC3 and 4 appear to be RAM chips, mine are made by KOL. Definitely a later ROM version, on yours. Take a look at IC2, there should be a 4 digit number printed on it. Its a CPLD (the brains of the device), so the added number is likely a programming version number. Mine says "8401". It sounds like the current crop may have faulty ROMs or CPLDs, the only way is to see what the other faulty units have inside. The biggest problem is going to be finding someone at Cypress to fix it and send out revised units.

I may need to make noise on this issue. I know exactly what to do, too.
RMA with B&H and snide eBay sellers just isn't doing it for me.

OK, here are some photos of the CTB-100 assembly. Sorry if the photos are bad; I don't do much photography. High-res photos are in the attached RAR file.

Attachment 1521

Attachment 1522

TBC-1? Manufacture date 2/25/2011?

Attachment 1523

Attachment 1524

Attachment 1525

Attachment 1526

Attachment 1527


IC3 and IC4 on my unit are made by Averlogic. These two IC's appear to play a role in the field buffer circuitry( clue? ). See: http://www.averlogic.com/AL440B.asp or attached PDF.

The CPLD on this board appears( correct me if I'm wrong ) to be an Altera EPM3064A.
http://www.altera.com/cgi-bin/devsea...0&y=0&site=www ( also attached as PDF )

Thanks for everyone's help! Hopefully we can put the nail in this coffin once and for all.

And drive a stake through its heart, too! :eek:

Would the (S-video) output of a DVD player be another way of getting "100% perfect NTSC video"? I don't have a cable box or tuner, since I don't watch TV ...

Kevin

DVD players work fine too.

I would suggest a DVD player, using a copied commercial DVD (all copy protections stripped), over a cable box. Cable is still noisy and somewhat erratic. Quite a few satellite boxes and cable boxes, to be perfectly blunt about it, suck at providing ideal "best quality" signals on output. For example, Dish Network, DirecTV, Charter -- I'm not a fan of their gear at all.

The DVD player, with a known-perfect video sources, would be ideal for such a test. It removes variables.

(Note: You've heard some of us talk about valid arguments for being able to copy retail DVDs; this is one example. You're able to make it a "test disc" in certain scenarios, and it therefore becomes a valuable tool. Quite a few commercial DVDs have test patterns, THX logos, etc -- all of which can be useful for calibration and testing of analog components, and A>D / D>A related testing. Some are hidden, some are not.)

On-topic rant: Just what we needed, more confusion. I can see eBay and Craigslist questions already: "Yes, I'd like to buy your TBC. Can you open it up and photo the board so I can verify it has the 'good chips' on it."

Oy! :rolleyes:

Well, fortunately, the only option I HAVE is a DVD player, so I used that to play a burned "TVblink.com" DVD -- see post #13 of this thread -- and ran it through my CTB-100 and into my TV ... This configuration is analogous to the one I tried before, with my SR-V10U VCR playing my "very clean" 1989 S-VHS recording -- which had caused the CTB-100 to "freeze-field" multiple times per minute ...

But there was no such problem with the video output from (the dynamic tests on) this DVD -- no "frozen fields" at all (viewing, not capturing) ... So I guess that means that there's something about the VCR and/or tape that my CTB-100 can't handle -- either inherently or defectively? :confused:

Kevin

Here's a couple photos of the back and inside of my CTB-100, with a high(er)-resolution photo of the inside attached at the bottom of this post ...

Note that Tuco's S/N = 201102250012, and my S/N = 201102250016 ...

Attachment 1547

Attachment 1548

Thanks newkt! Anyone with a newer AVT-8710 want to post the inside of their unit?

Here's a better photo of the hard-to-see markings on some of the CTB-100 chips (again. with higher-resolution photo attached at the bottom of this post):

Attachment 1555

After my last post above, I realized that those "hard-to-see" markings on the CTB-100 chips were still too hard to see!
So I finally had to resort to using the flash -- at just the right angle! -- to capture those last details ...
As before, a higher-resolution attachment follows ...

Attachment 1557

Yeah, the camera can really limit you when trying to takes shots like this.

It helps that I have one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B002SQKVD0
And can use a lens like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B000EOSHGQ
Add a 2x for more distance.

Can photograph a bug's butt from 10 feet. :)

Ye gods, mon!!! :eek: You must be RICH -- or at least VERY gainfully employed!!! ;)

I'm still using my first (and only) digital camera, circa 2003 -- a 3-MP Olympus C-750 UltraZoom (10x optical) that cost $500 back then ...
Camera technology has left me in the dust ... :o But it's still better than a cheap point-n-shoot! :)

Kevin

P.S. Actually, I decided that I was gonna have to take that last pic when I realized that I couldn't even READ the tiny print on those chips ...
I guess I've reached "a certain age" ... :rolleyes:

No, not rich. It's just one of the tools required to work as a photographer in the field. With a low-end camera, it's hard to get the best shots. No good shots, no work. It's a bit of an evil cycle, really. Spend money to make money. Or more accurately, spend money to try to make money. Not much different from having to own a TBC to get adequate results.

Hopefully with all these TBC images, we can arrive at a good conclusion.

I'll be creating my test clips later tonight.

Of course! You're a professional photographer! Please excuse my ignorance -- I really should have known, or at least guessed ... :o

Well, at any rate, you should have enough CTB-100 pix to work with now ... :thumb:

Us poor folk use a cheap trick to get high res PCB shots... a flatbed scanner. The only catch is that it has to have a CCD imager, not CIS. CIS imagers in scanners can't handle the depth (the boards don't lay flat against the glass).

update
 

I called and got an RMA for refund on my AVT. I told the guy what was going on and he said there was no way for anyone at B&H to follow up with me if they got the problem sorted out. not impressed.

Tuco, i'm getting similar results as your clips but worse. the JVC by itself with all processing turned on doesnt look bad considering how bad the source is, but the capture device is showing dropped frames. The ATI 600 is MUCH better quality but still drops. when I throw the AVT in the mix, once the first frame ghosts, it gets progressively worse.

so for fun I plugged in an old POS emerson dvd -r/-rw I bought from walmart on clearance back in 2006 that resides in the guest bedroom... what do you know? no dropped frames.

With all the issues and the price tag of these AVT units, unless you guys are getting a kickback, I'd recommend something else. There must be a million of these dvd recorders out there for cheap. sure you have a recommended list for these too, but from where i'm sitting, the Emerson isnt degrading the sharpness/color of good tapes and makes the capture device happy on the bad ones. I will do some more testing but I dont foresee even trying to buy another AVT unit.

for those interested, here are the pics of this latest unit i'm sending back:
S/N 2238406013982

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...337257th-1.jpg http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...409916th-1.jpg http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...328619th-1.jpg http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...318397th-1.jpg

Try this, then:

VCR > Emerson DVD recorder > ATI 600 USB capture

The Emerson DVD recorder has a lousy image quality for the MPEG-2 recording, but could act as a frame sync for passthrough. The Panasonic ES10 is best known as a "passthrough recorder" due to its "virtual TBC" clean-up functionality (remove tearing, for example), but it also has a full/partial frame sync -- and that allows it to sometimes replace an external TBC. In the case of the ES10, of course, it's not suggested because it's not transparent like an external TBC should be. Your Emerson may also have sufficiently strong frame sync abilities, which provide constant signal, and thus allows a capture without dropped frames. Technically speaking, all DVD recorders should have some degree of frame synchronizing going on, but where it happens in the path, and how strong/well it works are the main variables. Therefore not all DVD recorders can act as frame sync, as some people mistakenly suggest in other forums.

So my AVT 8710 had the same problem as the very first pic of this thread (ordered from b&h) with my JVC9900. So it is going back tomorrow. Do I replace it or just go with the data video TBC 1000? It is quite a bit more $ but I figure once I am done I can resell it?