I actually posted that before looking at how the spreadsheet was formatted. I'm not sure it'll work with your formatting so I think you should stick to the way you proposed it with VTR Capable on a separate line with Y/N for each model.

Yes, I was struggling with defining inputs AND VTR capable. Maybe add to "Special Functions" like this:

Video-In Connections

Digital Video (DV) - aka Firewire or Sony i.Link

S-Video (Y/C) Analog

Special Functions

External Analog to Digital Conversion

VTR Capable

Looks good, having it in a different category makes sense since it's not a video input, but rather a function and grouping it together with the A to D conversion makes sense as they're both special features.

Here's the latest version of the spreadsheet. The yellow-highlighted row titles seem to be the important ones.

Only the green-highlighted cells have been verified by me.

Hi man, I'm new to all this world of analog old camcorders, I see the list but I don't really know if all of them can work for what I want or if only some of them

I basically want to film (I actually want that vintage image that all of them have, I've been watching video samples of the 87 and I loved it) and have good sound (I mean good sound in the context of an old camera, lol) and the possibility to convert/transfer my recordings to my computer.

Which you think (or anyone else) could be my best choice of these lists?

You will be looking at this list for analog recording NTSC:

I actually own the CCD-TRV66.

What aspects of the "olden" image are you trying to emulate?

Do you want Hi8/S-VHS quality/resolution, or VHS/8mm quality?
Since you want good sound, so you may want a stereo model that can use an external stereo microphone or line level input. (Relying on an internal microphone will rarely if ever produce good audio.)

These old machines generally have been subject to storage abuse and perhaps misuse over the years, so finding a good working model will take effort. Auction sites, garage sales, and thrift shops buys are risky because the sellers rarely know or accurately report the actual condition. In any case they mainly used NiCad and NiMH batteries that by now have likely exceeded their useful life (i.e., have very limited ability to take/hold a charge).

An alternative is to shoot with a modern HD camcorder that can better cope with poor lighting and use effects software in post production to dumb down the video to emulate the legacy look when needed, and provide much better HD video what needed.

As I said I'm super new to this cameras so I don't know that much about specs
But as a reference, I've been watching videos of some of the cameras listed in the post and I liked the trv87 a lot, and by "good audio" I meant more like not distorted audio (In some videos I watched the audio was uuugly like when you get too close to a very bad micrphone), In case (again) of the trv87 I liked it

I assume is because the higher the numer, the "newer" the camera?

Thank you man, I'll be looking for these models on ebay, wish me luck since every camera I look for of the list is like 1 millon dolars on bids :(

(Sorry for the two replies of the post to quote both answers, I didn't knew how to quote both answers in the same reply)

Just want to say this thread is extremely helpful and awesome and amazing!

I've been on and off looking for Digital8 camera for a while now and the number of times that I thought I knew something about a model only to later find seemingly contradictory information about it in a different thread on a different forum is way too high. All of that's to say I think a centralised wiki describing what we know about these cameras would be a truly excellent idea!

Even if the wiki just started with what's on the excel spreadsheet right now, I think it would be extremely helpful. But since people could also slowly start adding more and more information they know to be true by owning specific models, the wiki would become even more helpful over time.

I could imagine it being similar to something like the openwrt table of hardware: https://openwrt.org/toh/start

Looking at the manual for the Sony CCD-TRV67 and I think it's actually mono not stereo out.

Looks like that is indeed the case for both the NTSC and PAL variants.

Do digital8 camcorder playing back video8 or hi8 convert to DV and/or 4:1:1 color space (for NTSC) when the signal is output to s-video?

I’ve seen differing information, so just trying to get to the bottom of what works for lossless capture.

I am trying to figure out the same thing as well. Have you found a conclusive answer?

S-video is an analog video stream, DV and 4:1:1 have no cleaning meaning for analog video streams. They have meaning for signals in the digital domain and imply the sampling and compression schemes used. They do set limits on the bandwidth (aka: frequency response or resolution) of the digital signal when converted to an analog.

You would have to examine the particulars of the D8 camcorder being used to determine what, if any form, of digital conversion are used in the analog output signal chain.



.

Looking at some Sony schematics and the common sense of engineering design the answer is no, Sony puts the DV encoder at the end of all processes right before the firewire output, Everything else such as TBC and DNR use a normal ADC and a volatile memory for few frames, probably in 8 bit but still lossless, It would take a lot of processing power to use DV codec for TBC/DNR plus a DV decoder to convert it to normal digital then off to a DAC to convert it to analog. What differentiate D8 camcorders from Hi8/V8 is that there is no 100% analog path when TBC turned off, Everything must pass through an ADC and then DAC for analog output or ADC then DV encoder out to firewire.

Judging by the service manuals, e.g this one for the TRV66, the Hi8 camcorders with TBC (and seemingly also the cheaper video8 models from the same time) also convert the head amp output to digital before any processing. Looks like it may be 10 bit ( at least for pb C) but not sure. I don't think it's inherently a bad thing though. For a full analog chain you would have to go back to the older models or VCRs where the processing was done in the analog domain. (VCRs with TBC like the EV-S9000 seems to do the main stuff in analog and use a digital block for noise reduction and TBC and Y/C filtering.)

There were a few VHS vcrs that did something similar, including the AG1980P, AGDSxxx, NVHS950, NVHS860/960 and some late model (S)VHSC camcorders. Other VHS vcrs typically did everything other than TBC, DNR (and Y/C filtering on newer SVHS decks) in analog.

I'm just trying to clarify what you're saying here.:hmm:

For D8 camcorders that can play back analog recordings on 8mm/Hi8 tapes, the analog signal is going through an ADC then a DAC before ending up at the S-video output connector on the side of the camcorder, ONLY IF the TBC is turned off or regardless if it's on or off?

Are you getting your info from a service manual for a particular DCR model?

At least for my DCR-TRV340, it's as latreche34 says: there is no direct analog output path. It's always analog-digital-analog. TBC on/off doesn't change this. (Note that this is different than saying it's DV-compressed. This digitization is uncompressed.)

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...parison-(Hi8)-[WARNING-auto-load!]#post2431845

To clarify, if you look at service manuals (e.g the one I linked), in both the D8 camcorders and later model 8mm/Hi8 only ones the signal from the head amplifier goes through one ADC for Y and one ADC for C and the camcorder does most of the processing in digital before turning it back to analog before output. It does this regardless of whether the TBC is active. (That doesn't imply the older models with all analog chains are better though.)

Thanks for clarifying!

a question not worthy of an answer:
is it possible to capture the digital before it's converted back to analog?
We do this for retro game systems nowadays for cleaner output. Just curious if that's ever been attempted. Definitely not practical, I wouldn't imagine.

In theory YES. However, every few people have the necessary knowledge and skills to do it, and there is minimal demand for it so no for-profit company is going to do it these days. It would be a labor of love for a hobbiest. The typical digital output is the DV stream via IEEE1394. In theory the DV stream has the frequency response and bit depth needed to faithfully output the Hi8/Video8 image. The main issue being the compression artifacts, especially with typically noisy Video8/Hi8 home video.

So, for the list in the first post by LS and other contributors, is this (quoted below) the list I should focus on if I want a player that has line TBC and S-Video with the ability to play back the most "8mm types" in stereo?

My understanding is that LP mode is the most problematic mode as it can be brand specific? If I'm understanding it correctly. :)

If what I've said above is not wrong, I guess my other questions are;

Do I need internal line TBC if I have line TBC pass-through?
Is there really any difference in these different models (listed below in quotes) from a playback standpoint?
What would be considered an approx. price to pay for one?

Lastly, if I really don't need internal line TBC due to my pass-through, which lineup of recorder/players would you suggest instead? If the difference between pass-through and internal (line TBC) is negligible, and the price difference is large, I may consider using my pass-through line TBC instead.

Thanks!

Because the tape moves slower, resulting in closer helical scan spacing, making precise head alignment and tracking more critical. It is not so much brand specific as individual machine specific due to slight variances in alignment from machine to machine. It is not a 100% problem, but a problem that is much more likely than with SP recordings, and it more likely when playback is not with the original recording machine.

That and the list of Hi8 ones with TBC/DNR. They doesn't differ notably between them, they all used similar playback circuitry afaik, so it's more about what you can find for a decent price. The list is by no means exhaustive though, there are more Sony's from the time missing as there were a lot of minor variations (Also be vary that a PAL variant may not exactly be the same as the same-numbered NTSC one).

When it comes to Sony Camcoders, TBC/DNR was a feature of most or all the Hi8 camcorders that also had stereo and S-Video out after they first started having it. The cheaper models that lack it won't have Stereo and S-Video out either. The one exception I am aware of is the DCR-TRV110 (from first digital8 lineup) though there could be more.

The older black Sony models that pre-date them tend to be full of surface-mount electrolytic capacitors that go bad, even if the camcorder hasn't been used, which causes them to act faulty or not work at all so I would generally stay away from those (There may be some exceptions but I don't know the model numbers too well). The playback circuitry was also less sophisticated, though I don't have a good comparison of the output. The late-model Sonys use a digital processing chain while older models and VCRs are mostly analog.

I know less about the non-Sony models, newer hitachi ones have TBC, though on the one I've used it seems to be a bit prone to vertical jitter (I've only used one so it could be just mine though seen this jitter on VHS dubs from that featured the OSD from the hitachi camcorders too.) I believe at least some of the non-Sony camcorders lack support for LP playback. Need to get around to trying to repair some of the ones I have sitting around so I can do some proper comparisons, though working on camcorders are a bit of a pain.

With respect to model numbers, I understand that Sony, and no doubt others, offered "box house" versions wherein it was the "same" camcorder but had a different model number and included accessories. This was to combat comparative pricing/price matching.

Sony is pretty good with posting the manuals for their old hardware. When in doubt, look it up and see if TBC and DNR menu items are present. Generally any HandyCam released 1998 or later has the TBC/DNR. Almost all Hi-8 models had stereo sound until Digital-8 came out. This is easy to confirm visually as there will be left and right RCA jacks on the camera for audio. Post 1999 camcorders went to a TRRS breakout cable that makes it harder to figure out, but assume all Hi-8 camcorders post Digital 8 are mono only. By then, analog camcorders were the lowest priced option and stripped down in features.

With regards to "XR" models, Sony dropped that after Digital 8 came out. Those were not common and there is no mention of "XR" playback capability with Digital 8 camcorders in analog mode. One thing I've always wanted to test is if the D8 models really can play back those tapes properly, but I have no way to objectively test that. I do have have a Hi-8 XR camcorder though.

Very true, although we rarely see LP Video8 tapes (PAL land) they're usually pretty well behaved, we've had far fewer issues with those than VHS/V2000 long play modes. There was no extended play Betamax in PAL land, but I'm sure they can be just as troublesome.

We don't use camcorders though, they go straight in the electrical waste where they belong (IMHO).

Anyway, for PAL at least, LP mode doesn't seem to be present too much of an issue in the 8mm format.

With VHS there was so many varieties and implementations of long play it can be a troublesome sod of a thing. Everything from discreet heads to horrid compromise gap heads...

Maybe good to know that (some) Digital8 Sony camcorders have a problem playing back Video8 cassettes. There appears a green glow at the righter edge. Users have reported this for models TRV120E, TRV240E, TRV320E, TRV345E, TRV460E & TRV720E, but others can be faulty too... Check my post about this problem here

Maybe this is something that should be mentioned in the first post of this thread?

Yeah it occurs on all the newer PAL Sony camcorders and some VCRs too. I noted it earlier in the thread. One of the chroma channels do not extend all the way to the right of the image for whatever reason.

Is this in the over scan area not displayed on consumer TV sets of the era these camcorders were sold. IF so, they were not visible or of concern to most users and it probably saved a few cents manufacturing cost to not address it.

With the advent of PC viewing of video they became visible because as a rule PCs do not over scan. Displaying a 4x3 image on a 16x9 screen can show this over scan area as well if the set does not mask it. Many current HD sets can be set to over scan or not, over scan, although they may use a different term, and it may depend on which input is used on the set. One Hitachi set I have calls it "Full" aspect.

A solution today is the mask the offending area.

I've have a EV-T2 and EV-C500e deck and I've been using em figurering they were great, because why not I guess, until I actually compared with one my Hi8 camcorders that are clearly better. Video played back on the decks seem to be more.. smudgier. It's really quite obvious when looking at the datecode in this example comparison. Overall image seems to have of a green tint too. Bummer.

I have a TRV101e, TRV98e, couple of TRV95e's and they all got that infamous green line. Is there really non of the later 'good' models that doesn't have that darn issue with being green on the right side?

TBC
 

I'm not sure why this is, but looking at both the manual and DCR-TRV720, I can see that TBC is clearly an available option. A bit of judgment on the DCRs perhaps? It's a phenomenal camera WITH both TBC and DCR :dunce::2cents:

I suspect that some of the Sony EV-C/S--- series Hi8 and Video8 VCRs suffer from SMD capacitor issues. I've noticed that the payback quality of my EV-S7000 has degraded over time, but have not had the time to investigate further.

Hey Guys how are yall doing
I am from Perth, Australia. I have a CCD TRV418E
I want to transfer to digital with good video quality.
I have a desktop and i dont know what equipment to get. Could you please give me some options please thanks. I tried to use the cheap $15 dollar digitnow convertors but the quality was very bad so i need something good as it is for a clothing brand promotion.

After due diligence methinks the CCD-TRV138 lacks S-video and maybe an asterisk is required.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Is it known if the CCD-TRV70 has a TBC? I'm attaching a picture of the specs page in the manual.

You need to check the menu items for the specific camcorder in the user manual, if it has an option for TBC ON/OFF then it does, Specification page is not going to tell you that information.

I couldn't find anything related to TBC in any of the menus (neither the play-back mode nor the record mode).

I was also having problems with powering this unit via AC, so I decided to purchase a Sony DCR-TRV480 on eBay to use for this project. Huge thanks to the spreadsheet compiled by GrouseHiker!

Well after checking that model it turns out to be a Video8 camcorder, As far as I know TBC was used only on certain Hi8/D8 camcorders. Only Hi8 and D8 (with analog playback) camcorders that have TBC and S-Video out are recommended for analog tapes capture. It has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.