Video8/Hi8/Digital8/DV/Betamax Buying Guide for quality conversion
 

This post is work in progress...

Hi8 stereo with TBC and s-video:
CCD-TRV62
CCD-TRV65
CCD-TRV66
CCD-TRV67
CCD-TRV72
CCD-TRV82
CCD-TRV85
CCD-TRV87
CCD-TRV93
CCD-TRV99
CCD-TRV101
CCD-TRV615

Hi8 mono with TBC and s-video:
CCD-TRV58E
CCD-TRV68
CCD-TRV88
CCD-TRV98
CCD-TRV108
CCD-TRV138
CCD-TRV308
CCD-TRV318
CCD-TRV608

Digital8 with Video8/Hi8 playback and s-video:
DCR-TRV120
DCR-TRV230
DCR-TRV240
DCR-TRV320
DCR-TRV330
DCR-TRV340
DCR-TRV350
DCR-TRV460
DCR-TRV530
DCR-TRV720
DCR-TRV730
DCR-TRV740
DCR-TRV820
DCR-TRV830
DCR-TRV840

Thanks to volkjager for seeding the Hi8/D8 camera lists.

Betamax: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post29130

Thanks for this. All the Digital8 cams with Video/Hi8 playback should have the same robust TBC/DNR circuit seen in the listed Hi8 models.

Also including stereo and TBC

Sony EV-S7000 Hi8 VCR
Sony GV-D200 D8 VCR (With video8/Hi8 playback)

The VCR suggestions list (VHS, S-VHS) will be adjusted to a new format in the near future. Long time planning, short on time to actually make those changes. But it is going to happen in a few months.

This page/list needs to be in the same format.

The blank DVD media reviews adopted the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th class system many years ago, and that will soon be continued into other parts of the site.

For VCRs/cameras, this is it:
1st class = exceptional gear/decks, most suggested
2nd class = really good decks, some minor issues/nuisances/caveats
3rd class = decent, just not the best, fatal flaws exist
4th class = unacceptable, never suggested, complete waste of time and funds

So, essentially, these VHS/S-VHS, Betamax, Video8/Hi8, and Digital8/DV lists will only have 1st-3rd class. Because, wel, it's a suggested list. The 4th class does merit mention, if only to state "anything not explicitly listed here is not suggested" perhaps even giving some models of the worst most-common units.

This will be done in tables.

1st Class

Brand	Model	Type	Noteworthy
1. Sony	CCD-OICU812	camera	Onboard processing turns everyone into Smurfs!

2nd Class

Brand	Model	Type	Caveats
1. Samsung	DCC-0KAY	camera	Not a Sony! Ewww....

3rd Class

Brand	Model	Type	Fatal Flaws
1. Sony	CCD-L0U5Y	VCR	No TBC, no s-video.

4th Class

Brand	Model	Type	Reason to Avoid
1. Sunbeam	003910	video toaster	Tape goes into slot, but pops out burnt less than a minute later.

So, with that info, anybody that would like to make suggestions, please do so. Where to classify the units (1/2/3/4), notes to add. It will be consider, likely incorporated. I have many notes already, many from Site Staff experiences. But community input is never a bad thing.

* Edit: And it seems I'll also have to add new styles to the tables, so all the columns line up.

While they're probably based around the same chips, I think the first D8 lineup, e.g DCR-TRV110 DCR-TRV310 etc lack TBC/DNR. At least it's not mentioned in the manual

The numbering scheme for Sony's cameras is a bit inconsistent but there are some general trends:
CCD-xxx.. - analog
DCR-xxx.. - digital - either Digital8 or MiniDV

The V in TRV indicates that the camcorder has an LCD monitor.

The first number tends to indicate feature level (high better), second tends to indicate lineup. Third if any can be country differences or other things. Later non-LCD screen models had four numbers in addition to no V in the name. (E.g DCR-TRV7000)

They did seem to reset and change it a bit over the years though, so it's just a general guideline between related models.

Some special feature models had a different naming scheme alltogether. e.g the weird CCD-SC65E.

The video walkman series (essentially camcorder without the camera part) are named GV-xxxx.

It seems also for at least the later models (and especilly for VCRs), they often used different numbers for PAL and NTSC camcorders in addition to the E at the end.

Chroma issue in overscan on PAL models:
The PAL models have a strip at the rightmost edge where one of the chroma channels are blank as seen here. As far as I know all the Sony TBC/DNR camcorders have this issue. This post sugests that the VCRs have a similar issue (I've noted the same with the lower end EV-C2000e). Don't know about the big broadcast decks and pro cameras but those are rare and possibly prone to capacitor issues.

I believe the older Hi8 cameras did not have this issue, but the playback quality and dropout compensation is not as good and they lack TBC. My Hitachi D8 camera also does not have this, don't know about the Hitachi Hi8 models. (Been meaning to make some comparisons, but haven't gotten around to it.)

It's possible to mask the strip a bit with avisynth if it's bothersome.

NTSC playback on PAL
Many PAL models (at least most, haven't checked all) can play analog NTSC tapes in either NTSC 4.43 or PAL60 (adjustable in the menu) format. The TBC and DNR is not active when doing this so you would need something external to stabilize jitter in this case.

I believe NTSC D8 tapes play back on PAL D8 cameras over firewire and vice versa.

Some extras for the list:

Hi8 XR Stereo PAL:
CCD-TR840E
CCD-TR845E

Hi8 Mono PAL:
CCD-TRV218E
CCD-TRV418E

D8 PAL:
DCR-TRV345E
DCR-TRV355E
DCR-TRV356E

Hi8 Stereo PAL:
CCD-TR2200E
CCD-TR3300E

Hi8 Mono NTSC:
CCD-TRV118
CCD-TRV318
CCD-TRV418

D8 NTSC
DCR-TRV351

I've never used any of the earliest (pre-XR) TBC/DNR equipped models, and I haven't seen much about them on the forums either - would assume they would have similar performance but it would be nice if someone could confirm.

This post has a list of PAL VCRs with info about features.

Common issues with sony camcorders:
The internal contacts can sometimes get a bit dirty/corroded which can result in a lack of image (though that can also be caused by clogged heads) and other issues. Re-seating and cleaning the ribbon cable contacts inside the camera may help, but one needs to be careful if opening it.

The thing locking the pinch roller in place breaking and resulting in the pinch roller rubber bit getting loose/stuck/falling out also seem to be a common issue. I haven't tested any of the suggested fixes myself so I can't speak for how well they work.

In some cases the third digit may have ben used to designate a specific retail package with the accessories and/or the retail outlet (example: all COSTCO models might end in 7 to distinguish it from other resellers, and inhibit price comparisons/matching).

Not sure if I'm alowed to post on this thread but I have three PAL models to recommend, all have S-Video, are stereo, have TBC and DNR and two of them have data code though I don't think that's relevant for capturing :

Hi8 XR Stereo with TBC and DNR (PAL)
CCD-TRV69E (data code)
CCD-TRV77E (data code, digital frame buffer)
CCD-TRV87E (digital frame buffer)

The "DigitalCamcorderFeatures_20050311" list from camcorderinfo / videohelp forums may help in putting together a comprehensive list: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...PC#post2282689

I would be glad to help with this effort... Especially since I am in the middle of trying to find a replacement 8mm player.

I could pull your notes together into a spreadsheet, and you can then sort and comment.

Please do! :)

Since the proper way of capturing analog tapes is thru a S-Video output can you guys make a separate sections for S-VHS/Hi8/D8 and VHS/Video8 so folks who seek quality can go straight to the right section. To be honest I would not recommend a Video8 or VHS VCR for any type of capturing task other than rewinding or sorting out tapes.

Attached is the spreadsheet Brad posted in this link.

I assume too many columns is a problem; however, for my purposes, it would be nice if the rankings could include:

1. Output connections (DV, Y/C, Composite). I'm thinking the older cameras with only composite out shouldn't even be covered.

2. As posted above in excellent detail, the Sony model numbers identify digital models, but the rankings should probably indicate Y/N on playback of digital, Hi8, and/or Video8 (particularly for non-Sony units). In my case, I don't want digital (already have one that seems problematic) but definitely want analog playback with Y/C.

3. I have read some tests that indicate TBC and DNR may be important to some. I'm not sure of the terminology for this limited type of TBC (vs line TBC).

References to various success/failure stories (e.g., forum posts) would be nice, but then this project would start to look more like a database than a small spreadsheet.

Should I put something together for consideration?

Here's an idea (maybe too idealistic):

For each device model number (or at lease the ones worthy of mention), a forum post is created where people can record their success or problems with that device. These "device" threads can include links to more extensive (existing or new) threads.

The Ratings sheet would include links to those equipment-specific threads - an "organic" database.

These equipment feedback threads might be under a separate forum branch.

That sounds interesting, as long as the forum can handle all the extra threads. You could also include the User and Service manuals for the model in a pinned post in each thread since sometimes they're hard to find but a person on here might have them.

Line TBC is usually resides inside a VCR or a camcorder, The helical scan of a video tape is mechanical and it's never perfectly precise due to mechanical imperfections and speed fluctuations of both the capstan and the video drum motors, as a result the scanned lines are not perfectly stacked (commonly known as mouse teeth) and they don't have the same length.

In a nutshell, the line TBC digitizes those lines on the fly one by one for each field and store each line in a memory buffer then apply the digital processing on each one to give it a fixed length and a time stamp then converts them back to analog with a corrected horizontal blanking signal built from those time stamps. the whole process is considered lossless. Some machines combine the DNR with TBC to avoid an extra A-D/D-A step such as most VCR's and some have it separated like in most camcorders.

External TBC or full frame TBC on the other hand corrects the timing of fields or frames, it digitizes and stores the whole field or frame one at a time in a memory buffer and time stamps those frames evenly to correct the vertical blanking signal. Then a frame synchronizer follows after.

Most external TBC's are built in frame synchronizer, it's function is to duplicate missing frames or drop extra ones, Also capture software are built in frame sychronizers too but if the the external TBC exists in the workflow chances are the capture software will not have any problems.

Some PCI capture cards from back in the day are built in full frame TBC and frame synchronizer, as well as some pro capture devices like the BE75 from Ensemble Designs, This saves an extra A-D/D-A step, so the whole process is done in one step during the digitizing of the analog video.

Thanks for that explanation. So, for the purposes of player ratings, TBC (yes/no) would only indicate presence of line TBC. I was thinking some of the more sophisticated decks might included frame TBC, but in studying the EV-S7000 and the EVO-9850 it looks like these have no TBC.

I sent an email to Ira Perlow, author of the spreadsheet ("Digital8CamcorderFeatures") to check if there is a more recent version.... no response so far.

At this point, I guess it's up to the forum owners to decide whether or not an "Equipment Feedback" forum branch (with sticky posts for each model) would be of value.

FWIW: The Sony EV-S7000 does include a TBC. It is selected ON/OFF via the menu system.

Based on the chip used on the digital processing board it appears to be a full field TBC (960 x 306 x 8 bit).

The EVO-9850 does have a TBC as well, don't know how much storage it has.

The Sony EV-c2000e has a frame store for pause and trick play modes, but it lacks the full TBC correction on playback like it's big brother EV-S9000 has. Seems to blend fields together when playing at different speeds with the jog/shuttle wheel, the output doesn't go through it on normal playback.

I suspect based on the schematics that the later sony camcorders with TBC/DNR may have used a digital processor for decoding the video signal from the heads and not just for the TBC part like most VCRs did.

Thanks! instead of visually scanning the EV-S7000 manual, I downloaded a better copy and OCR'd it. Search revealed the menu choice mentioned. That's good, this one is back on my personal list of possibilities.

Regarding the "Ratings Sheet," it looks like the TBC column should show "F" for field-based or "L" for scan-line based.

Any ideas on how forum participants could collaborate on the "Digital8CamcorderFeatures" spreadsheet? I guess the mundane approach is to download it, update, and upload...

Also, the title of the sheet should be changed to "Digital8Hi8..."

Interesting. :hmm:

Let me think about logistics, since I'd have to maintain it.

It would also tie into the glossary.

A few thoughts.

IF separate forums, they could be based on a specific family or series to keep numbers manageable.

Use simple coding for column entries where multiple possibilities exist. The column could contain one or more entries. Some examples:
Formats: V, CV, V8, SV, CSV, H8, B, SB, D8, DV, HDV (CV, CSV for compact VHS/S-VHS, B for Beta, SB for Super Beta)
TBC: N/A, Li, Fl, Fr (i.e., none, line, field, frame, where frame implies field and line)
DNR: N/A, [#] (where {#} the number of settings
Video Outputs: C, S, Comp, FW, H, SDI (composite, s-video, component, Firewire, HDMI)
Audio Outputs: R, X, O, C (RCA, XLR, Optical DIgital, Coax Digital
Audio Modes: M, S, 4 (mono, stereo, 4-tracks)
Standards: N, P, S (NTSC, PAL, SECAM)
Aspect Ratios: S, W, A (4x3, letter-boxed wide [360 image lines], anamorphic wide[480 images lines])
Time Code: L, V, R, N (LTC, VITC, RCTC, Native to the format)
Control: N/A, I, L, R, O (Infrared remote, LANC, RS232, Other)
and there may be others of interest.

Also would be good to include a place for special notes as to issues or positives not obvious from the other columns; e.g., susceptable to SMD capacitor problems.

Wow that's confusing, what's wrong with VHS, S-VHS, VHS-C, S-Beta ....etc?

Could use Google Sheets, since it allows collaborative online editing of spreadsheets. We'd need to control access somehow though since otherwise it'll turn into a mess, maybe it had a feature that makes it do the owner has to approve edits...

Perhaps a WIKI?

Good ideas! For my purposes, year of introduction is important. I have been adding placeholders in the spreadsheet for the Sony "CCD" models with the thought the newer models might have fewer capacitor issues. At this point, I have 70 8mm cameras in the spreadsheet. I'm sure this could easily grow to 100+. 8mm Decks should probably be included in the 8mm category, but personally I am starting to shy away from these based on capacitor issues.

The grouping of devices might be by Manufacturer-Year. For example, these are the 2005 Sony "CCD" models:
CCD-TRV138/TRV238E/TRV338/TRV438E

This flyer shows the 2002 offerings:https://docs.sony.com/release/CCDTRV608guide.pdf

The earliest camera in the spreadsheet at this point is 1998 - 9 years of 8mm products if made current through 2007:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_mm_video_format
That's a good idea... is it possible to create new entries on Wikipedia? I've never tried this.

EDIT: Actually....Sony_DCR-TRV900

EDIT2: This is doable. I just created a Wikipedia acct.

Maybe we give this a try... If Google drive will work, I can post and send links. PM links would limit access.

Agreed.

I hate letter salads. Real words and real-world abbreviations can be used. There is enough screen real estate to allow for it, if planned well.

What is being suggested here actually ties into a review system being built into the forum. :wink2:
That is coming in several months.

I'm not fond of Google Docs collaboration for long-term, only short-term (days, weeks). An exported OpenOffice or Excel speadsheet needs to be exported as backup, and attached to this thread, after major additions/changes. Eventually the Google Docs spreadsheet can go away, and this thread can serve as the final version. As HBB360, these things can, and often do, turn into a mess -- before getting abandoned, then purged/deleted over the longer term.

Google Docs may not be needed. This thread can serve as the collaboration (discussion, instructions to add/remove/etc), and a single person can make the spreadsheet, and with that I can make the thread sticky, guide, and integrate it into the glossary. I do have lots of info to add, but no time to do so just yet. So please start without me, and I'll come in later.

@GrouseHiker - I don't know if you've seen it but I posted a spreadsheet I created when researching D8 camcorders for use as a transfer source. I posted it here in the thread that preceded this sticky on 8MM and Beta devices. I later learned it was not kosher to post an Excel spreadsheet due to security concerns... It was/is clean as far as I know. I could also send the data to you in some other form if preferred.

I don't know what more I could fundamentally contribute to this project but would try as best I could.

I would like to see this effort result in some kind of succinct summary that is kept up to date within itself and probably not directly written to by everyone. I've really struggled to find what I'm looking for in the long, long, threads like the ones on VHS vcr's and AIW's (drivers and hacks, etc.) because the useful information ends up spread out over so many pages. Those are great as historical archives and probably a good way to provide input to the summary page, but are difficult to use directly as "look up" resources.

my :2cents:

BW

Thanks - I downloaded your sheet, and it contains a lot of good info. I'll try to merge with the sheet I posted above.

As far as I can tell, xlsx is an allowable file upload format... I scan everything I download anyway.

I agree with your sentiment on having a go-to source on equipment. I'm searching for another playback device now...

I had long since wanted to create detailed guides for both Betamax and 8mm with regards to the various format extensions (both video and audio, things like SuperBeta etc.) and the decks that could play them. Things like lack of time and forum formatting get in the way.

I have moved this along quite a bit (100 devices so far), but have not tried to capture PAL models.

The original spreadsheet contained much more information than we need.. e.g., I don't think we care about recording...

Row titles highlighted in yellow seem important, but there may be others.

The light green highlights are information I have confirmed in the OM's - Om's are hyperlinked just below the device name.

It might be good to keep the original information intact and just hide extraneous rows. We're not in collaboration mode on this sheet yet, so give comments and we will wait for Lord Smurf directive. At some point, maybe we collaborate via Google Docs and someone can bring in PAL equipment.

Edit: By the way, working on this helped me avoid a small disaster: I had pulled the trigger on a CCD-TRV138 on eBay and then realized the thing didn't have s-video!!!! I contacted the seller and we switched to a CCD-TRV318 he also had for sale. Whew...

Some do care about recording. There is a nostalgia crowd to consider. That will actually be separate entry on my (S)VHS VCR guides. There are some models to seek for recording, some to definitely avoid.

I have a few PAL cameras that I can give input on, as do our PAL users.

NJRoadfan has some posts/attachments in the forum. Seek those out.

I also have an email or PM with attachments on best decks, but not yet sorted. Both my PM and email inboxes are too full.

Ok - you define the row titles to keep (or add), and we can start getting this sheet under control.

I would say any VCR or camcorder with good playing capabilities such as S-Video out and HiFi stereo should be a good recorder as well, With the exception of some camcorders that are not built in VTR, so it's easy to add VTR notation to the camcorders that are capable of recording, This information can be found in the user manual, so any member who owns the camcorder or has time to check out the manual online can contribute to confirm such info.

I'm part of the recording crowd, but I have to agree with latreche that if the device has good playback it usually has good recording. When it comes to VCRs the only thing that I look for is an S-Video input on the back to be able to hide all the cables in my setup at the bacl.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Hi8, I haven't seen any camcorder with VTR that is PAL. The CCD-TRV87E that I got recently lists the S-Video and composite as inputs (and they are, in Player mode the input signal from composite and s-video shows up on the screen) but the manual seems to be copied from the NTSC model (87 without an E) since it shows the VTR recording controls at the top which are not present on the PAL machine. It doesn't work with an IR remote that has a VTR recording button either unfortunately.

Would a section group "Video In Connections" including "VTR Capable" be the way to define this? For example, this group header and row titles:

Video-In Connections

Digital Video (DV) - aka Firewire or Sony i.Link

S-Video (Y/C) Analog

VTR Capable

This looks good, maybe have VTR Capable in parentheses next to the header, like this:

Video-In Connections (VTR Capable)

Digital Video (DV) - aka Firewire or Sony i.Link

S-Video (Y/C) Analog

I feel like it's clearer and quicker this way, you can see if it's VTR capable at a glance. For example, if you need it to be VTR Capable and it isn't you don't need to read about the inputs and you can skip it.

Btw. I just got around to checking out your spreadsheet, its very impressive and thorough! I don't know if it's on purpose but you haven't added a line for Video8 LP recording, or I'm missing it. Also, are you planning to color code the PAL machines or will they be in a separate group? I'll do some research on my three PAL machines (69E, 77E and 87E) to fill all of your data points and I'll send it over so you can integrate it if you want.

That makes sense.

I was probably assuming no one would care about this... not true?

It might be easier to integrate the PAL machines with the NTSC machines, since many will have an NTSC "mate" and the cells will just copy over. However, the machines are now grouped by common Operating Manual (borders at the top). Maybe the PAL OM group sits right next to the NTSC group?

We will have to add a NTSC/PAL row.

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. I think most people will choose to record in Hi8, maybe you should get rid of the standard 8 SP as well?

I think it'll be fine that way, group them together with a PAL/NTSC tag in a row. Though you should be careful of slight differences. I'm gonna take the CCD-TRV87E as an example again since it's the only one I have - the CCD pixel count varies slightly between PAL and NTSC (larger in PAL according to specs in manual). As far as I remember it's the only difference, it's a slight one but it's worth paying attention to.

The two CCD-TRV66 camcorders I got do have a record button on the panel, though I haven't tested. I think the functionality often was techically present but disabled on PAL models for some tax reasoning, and it may be possible to enable by adjusting the ROM via service mode using a remote thing. Doing this seems to have been more of a thing with D8 and DV camcorders to enable av in -> DV out. I made a parallel to lanc cable (mainly to try to enable always on VTR mode on a miniDV camcorder with a broken ribbon cable), but I didn't manage to get it to work, will probably look into it again at some point though. Was a bit of a hassle as the LANC app only seemed to work on win95/98.