Build a PC dedicated to capture, which card?
 

One more thing i forgot to mention and the only missing puzzle from the workflow is the capture card. I read topics here about it and you talked about a lot of type: Canopus NX, ATI AIW, ATI TV Wonder, etc. I decided to build a PC dedicated only for digitalization. I already found a Turtle Beach sound card on eBay but without a capture card all the device are useless if i cannot convert the signal to digital. Which capture card do you recommend in the first place?

I do not recommend Canopus NX, that's another user. I'm not fond of Canopus devices.

The Turtle Beach Santa Cruz audio card is only good for ATI AIW PCI/AGP/PCIe capture. (And noting PCIe is the least best method, AGP and PCI best.)

What sort of system are you going to build?
Motherboard?
CPU?
RAM?
HDD? (SATA, IDE)
box size? (ATX. etc)

OS is another consideration. AIW requires XP. For video capture, XP is often best. As a dedicated capture system, you're not forced to use newer software on it, as it's only for capture.

My preference is always for an AIW AGP/PCI system, but also realize it's just not in the plans for everybody. And that's where other cards comes in, be it AIW USB, 600 USB, clones, or some others.

As i see there is different connection types: USB, PCI, AGP, PCIe ? If i would build a dedicated capture system it doesn't matter if the capture card will use one slot on the motherboard. In this case i would prefer the capture card inside the box (computer) with PCI, PCIe or AGP instead of sticking in an USB outside. I am affraid to crack in half the USB stick if i accidentaly hit it or if i move my setup and don't want to deal with 50 tiny piece.

I found Turtle Beach sound cards cheap on ebay, so if i can get an ATI AIW PCI or AGP, the capturing part would be complete. For the PC specification i have no idea :hmm:. Actually i am counting on you. The operation system is discussed: Windows XP.

Here's a few fairly recent threads where AGP motherboard/CPU and capture card options were discussed:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ng-pc-ati.html

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/comp...html#post60563

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ng-pc-aiw.html

As far as the AGP AIW cards are concerned, probably the most important thing is to make sure what ever you get comes with the correct cables to allow you to use it for capture (or you know you can get the needed cable). Most of the AIW cards listed on eBay (US) do not have the cables needed to use them for capture. For some of them it's easy to get the cables (also on eBay) for others it's next to impossible. Understand what is required before you buy...

BW

Yes, to get very specific.. avoid the best card.. the AIW 9600 .. if you are new and don't understand how important its unique and rare breakout cable is.

Read, read, read .. about the AIW 9600 rear mega-D shaped port. It was never used on any other card, or anyplace else in the industry. ATI contracted out to have that special cable made custom. If the card does not have that cable included in the sale.. don't go anywhere near the AIW 9600. That cable is worth more than the card itself !!

ATI "experimented" with many custom cables and combinations of stab or D-shell connectors.. and evolved to side by side card back planes to bring out standard connectors for video capture. They even experimented with using non-standard 7 pin connectors as dual 7 pin and 4 pin s-video connectors "simultaneously". But did a poor job of explaining that to customers in their quick start sheets and manuals. Its very perplexing.. their manuals were not "bad" they were just overly simplistic.. as if they had the engineers themselves write them as an after thought and "forgot" not everyone knew what they assumed they knew as common knowledge.

ATI AIW cards are wonderful, premium priced, harder and harder to find.. but cables are a large portion of the burden when using them.. you have to have the original cables.. they are so (dense) you cannot home brew them yourself. And the pinouts for them are mostly unknown and unpublished.

Thank you guys to warn me about this very important information.

Now somehow i find a lot of ATI All In Wonder cards on eBay. As i see they all AGP. The type number is like 9800, 8500, 9000. This is what we are talking about? As i see there is a VID IN on the back. I don't need an another graphic card for gaming, now i need a capture card :cool:. I also need for this card that special cable? The connector looks like an S-Video(ish) i cannot recognize it.

This is that special cable?

I find it a pity that people made a product of a company bad without testing it because they don't like the company or have made bad experiences with one of their products (ADVC300).

But the Canopus NX/Edius NX is one of the better capture cards for PAL(I haven't tested it with NTSC content!!!!). It's recommended here in europe from some of the best pros (similar to Lord Smurf in the US).

I have written this a few times on this forum. There exist two version (PCI-X & PCI-E). You could capture uncompressed in YUY2 (4:2:2) or if you wish to some other codecs like canopus hq(x)or..... Unfortunately you'll need the software Edius to capture.
At the day of it's release (~2004) prices for the card, the bay (which it's not necessary but a nice have to) & edius was about 2000,- euro.
These days you can find them much cheaper. Here in Germany I could grab the card for 50,- Euro and Edius 7 for ~130 euro. From edius exist now 9 versions. The card work from edius 3 to 8. The up to date Edius 9 version has no support for nx card. For example I have bought last year edius 5 for 10,- euros.

Another thing you should know, the card has a video out port which you could connect to a tv (s-video, composite). You could compare your captures (or editet captures) from the timeline or you could watch your video during the capture process on your tv.
The card has although a real proc amp included which adjust the video in/out ports and it has some jitter correction which is much better as I have seen in any other capture cards. If you have tapes in poor condition you could connect an panasonic dvd recorder ES-10 or EH-65 between your vcr & the canopus nx.
The card can't report dropped frames, but you could adjust edius to stop capture process if the card dropped frames.

Some notes to the much praised ATI AIW/600 cards. If you decide to use one of this cards you will need an external tbc!!! The ATI cards are well known to have problems with macrovision/false macrovision detection. If you don't believe use google. That's why the advise here is always use a vcr with tbc and an external tbc (expensive these days).

I really would like to see that Lord Smurf would test the canopus nx & the Blackmagic Intensity (Shuttle) via HDMI capture vs the ATI cards to clarify if I'm wrong or there are good alternatives to the praised ati cards.

Please don't do this to me :cry:

Very soon i cannot enter in my room because digitlization devices lying everywhere. :). Actually this second workflow could be assembled. Having VCR and ES10 with DVK-100. So i can get two different capture cards (the Canopus NX and an ATI AIW). The ATI AIW has VID OUT port also so i can verify the captured video on the output i assume. If you could assist to me i could do a comparison between the two workflow. I will search my worst cassette and let's ride.

Bogilein,
i found Canopus NX cards on eBay $240 cheapest. How can i find one for $50?

I have seen it on a german shop, not ebay. They sold 6 of the nx cards.
Usually the canopus nx are 2 cards. But for capture sd content you only need the nhx-e1 (PCI-X) or nhx-E2 (PCI-E).
The cards on the german shop are nhx-e1. But don't forget Edius. Edius 1-5 only for winXP. Edius 6-8 Windows 7 (maybe Win10 not tested).
To find one at a good price on ebay you have to seek some time. I have bought one with bay & Edius 5 from the UK 2 years ago for about 110,- Euro. Last year one from german ebay for about 90,- Euro.

Thank you for the information. Then i will search for it on ebay for a good price. What do you mean that "nx are 2 cards"? I saw somewhere an expansion kit for the nx, is that?

Yes,
my Edius NX Express include the VX2L-EXC board (DV terminal (IEEE1394 6pin) & HD,SD component output terminal). I haven't used it. Some other versions have the expansion board HX-HD1 included (Unbalanced Audio, HD,SD Component output terminal).

Here is a link for the hardware setup manual:

https://cdn1.grassvalley.com/unsecur...DSTORM_ENG.pdf

Which country you came from?

I came from Hungary.

This is very useful information. I/we should have asked earlier.
I know the feeling:smack:

Based on your location, you may have better luck finding a motherboard than I would in the US.

Here are some motherboard listings on eBay US that are located in the EU.

This would be a very solid base to build upon, includes motherboard, good CPU and the recommended 2GB memory. If it is in good condition, it would be a solid performer. "Just add AIW" and you're all set.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASROCK-775D...e/324078036537

This one is in Hungary. It looks good as is but could be improved with a Core-2-Duo CPU:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASRock-775D...K/153424942141

This is in Latvia. Technically, it is probably the best choice (intel 865 chipset). However, it's a bare motherboard so would need a CPU/heatsink and memory. Again, if in good shape should be a solid choice.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gigabyte-Te...d/233246259063

Before you decide on a motherboard, check out the manufacturer's website for support availability. Understand what you are getting. What CPU's are supported? Are manuals and in particular the motherboard drivers (chipset drivers) available for download?

As far as AIW's go I can only (quickly) find one listed on eBay US that is in the EU, Hungary no less.
The seller actually has 2 cards for sale. This style of 9000 should be good though I have no personal experience with 9000's. Unlike the 9600's, it's design requires only the purple cable (as you have shown above) to work for capture. You would also need a DVI to VGA adapter if you use a VGA monitor.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATi-All-in-...?epid=73818211

Note that there are other AGP AIW's that only require the purple cable (9700 and 9800's at least).
Edit: The AIW you pictured above is one of these, probably a 9800. Purple cable to purple connection, s-video to purple block, audio direct to Line-in on sound card (otherwise you need another special AIW cable, and with no real benefit).

Obviously I cannot attest to the condition of any of the above. eBay is always a gamble.

BW

This product's shipping is weird. The product's location is Hungary but the seller does not ship to Hungary :smack:. I assume he want to skip eBay if somebody wants to buy the product from inland.

I think it would be harder to find an appriopriate CPU and Memory to a motherboard instead buying a motherboard that includes them. Why is this intel 865 chipset important? Reliable, more powerful, less energy consumption?

So these type numbers are good(9000, 9600, 9800 etc.)? Does it matter how many memory does it have? 64MB or 128MB? I would prefer the cards with direct S-Video input. I don't want to deal with also this purple thing: found one to buy and later not let to separate from the card. The mentioned motherboards have AGP so it can be fit in.

I also found the 2 GB memory strange. If i install XP it can handle up to 4GB. 2GB memory is enough for capturing or did i something missing?

It's definitely easier to buy a complete set-up, especially if you do not have PC building experience. If you build your own system from the motherboard up you will have to learn about the various CPU's and memory options it supports. That said, there are lots of options and good price/availability of used CPU's and memory. But you will have to dig into this yourself to decide.

Intel chipsets are considered the gold standard. In this case it mostly involves better support for the SATA ports on the boards (Intel vs. VIA chipsets). This is discussed in one of the posts I linked earlier.

- Any of those should work fine for capture if you get the right cable for it.
- 64MB is fine for capture. Much less works on earlier cards (32MB on the earlier 7200 AIW).
- No AIW's (that I know of) have s-video input directly to the card. All require at least the purple cable with the block that includes the audio and video connections. Some other ATI cards with "AVIVO" have s-video on the backplane but they are not recommended for capture.

2GB is enough for capture. Many boards from this era were limited to 2GB as it was considered a lot at the time. I believe it is a chipset limitation.

BW

A lot of useful information. Thank you for that. Actually i work in IT as a programmer but i have no experience in PC build. So i should find an ATI AIW which have the purple cable in the package because without it i cannot connect the devices to eachother.

Actually, the purple cable is the one cable that is easy to find on eBay.

This search comes up with quite a few:
"ati (aiw, all in wonder) (cable, dongle, connector, breakout)"

Multiples of the purple input cable, eg.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-6140004...e/124082872107

Even one of the less common output cables:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-Radeon-...s/164038783652

Those are the correct cables for AIW's we've been discussing. Purple cable to purple connector, black cable to black connector. The black cable is one of those "additional special AIW cables" I said you'd need to route the audio input through the AIW (via the purple block). It just loops it back out to the Line-in of the sound card. It is also what you would need to send an s-video output to a TV. I think this is very little used by most people doing transfer work with their AIW's. Maybe someone else will chime in to say differently :unsure:

You don't want the cable with the purple wire and black block. It's for the 8500DV only.

BW

The VIVO cards have a 9-pin din connector and breakout cable. They're like AIW without tuners. They got the same Rage Theater chip as the 8xxx and 7xxx AIW cards, what cause them to be not recommended?

@hodgey - I don't have a solid answer for you. Maybe some of real forum experts do.

Just speculating, it looks like maybe the Rage Theater equipped VIVO cards were more common on your side of the pond. A majority of the eBay (US) listings for something similar are in the EU or UK. As with the AIW cards, none has a VIVO cable included. It appears they were mostly 3rd party cards (Sapphire, HIS, etc.). Also, I think there were a lot of "VIVO" cards made that did not have the theater chips. I had 2 of them back in the day, AGP X1600/1650's I think and neither had a theater chip.

Finding the right cable looks to be a similar obstacle as with the AIW cards. Have you used one for capture?

BW

Keep in mind that you have to get a tb santacruz sound card next to aiw. It will costs you over 100 euro for both. And you will get an old working pc with agp slot. I gave up and took an mxo2. You can find it on ebay for less than 200$, sometimes much less. It works with win7.

Maybe they were. Seems some of them were used in pre-built systems as they have connectors to a front-panel module on the card, the one I got is one of these (9600 VIVO). I have not tested it yet, I don't have the right breakout cable, been planning to make one myself using the internal 4-pin connectors (same connectors used on audio cards), but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Never seen a non- rage theater AIW/VIVO x1600. Some of the very old rage 128 cards use an ImpacTV2 chip, no idea who made it, and there was at least one late-model ones using the newer ATI Theater 650 chip used in the standalone AIW cards.

EDIT: Looks like the ImpacTV chps may have been ATI-made as well

" I have not tested it yet, I don't have the right breakout cable"

Dell HJ857 might be the cable you need?

https://itprice.com/dell/hj857.html

https://www.newegg.com/p/1DK-003B-00016

Getting off topic...

BW

Yep, sometimes threads turn into an info overload. :unsure:

Multiple capture workflows is never a bad thing. :)

Yes, there are a lot of good Asrock AGP+SATA boards in Europe, which allow dual/quad core Intel (or AMD, but I far prefer to Intel, the CPUs run far cooler). The 4CoreDual are what I use. A good price for one of those boards, including 2gb+ RAM and the CPU, is about $100 average. Ditch the stock heatsink, get a Cooler Master Hyper 212.

I believe he already has the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card. And $100 for both is decent average price.

The non-AIW VIVO cards have always been confusing. I last played with a VIVO about 10 years ago. The only thing I remember about it is that it did not work as expected.

The early 7200/7500 AIW were also referred to as AIW VIVO, especially the PAL models.

That is not correct. My experiences with Canopus far exceed a single product. I've been writing about various Canopus products for 20 years now. It is correct, currently at least, that I've never used that exact NX card. But nothing about the card is tempting, especially the requirement that Edius (payware) be used for capture. NLE capture is not recommended, due to resource overhead, tendency to drop frames, and other oddities can that creep in. I understand that you like that setup, but it will probably never get my recommendation.

I'm not sure if that's a neat feature, or pointless feature. :hmm:
I generally like to stop/pause/rew when watching tv (bathroom, eat, answer phone, missed something, etc), and you cannot do that while capturing.

Samples, please! :)

All capture cards need to use an external framesync TBC.
All capture cards can have problem with signal issues, including both natural errors (aka "false copy protection") and artificial video errors (anti-copy, including Macrovision).
This is not an ATI issue, it's an issue for everything digital acquisition device.

Only if I was loaned/given the card for testing, or could acquire it for my $50 gambling/testing per-item budget. I do think there are more decent alternatives for capture out there, hidden gems, but BM is not it, and Canopus is unlikely to be it, given what all is known. The BM has to much damning info out there, while the NX has rigid non-standard usage requirements that many of us do not wish to deal with (as video is already not-easy, do not wish to pile on more potential problems).

The only thing that would change my mind is if the card exhibited some sort of unique restoration ability. I'd like to see the supposed jitter correct in action.

Is this a good capture card? The original box contains the purple cable also. If not recommend can you describe the parameters please how should i search after that?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-8500DV-...oAAOSw7FFeTf7o

I don't know. The auction pictures suck. Another typical eBay a-hole. I think the essential wires are missing. Not sure. All I see is a random card, some random CDs, and a dead squid of wires.

Do not buy it. :disagree:

In first step can how can i filter the capture cards? I don't need graphics card for games. The name "All-In-Wonder" is identify this or should i check the plugs on the back of the card?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ATI...oAAOSwfrleJyOq

One of the picture there are cables. The grey one has s-video if i see. Does it matter if the title NTSC mentioned and i live in Europe?

Games have nothing to do with it. In general, there is no such thing a "gamer card". Those are simple graphics cards with high specs (at the time). Every ATI claimed to be good at everything, it was marketing, and doesn't matter.

Focus on the AIW card. It is graphics + video capture. This is good, this is fine. The video part is high-end, ATI outdid themselves on the Theatre 100/Rage and 200 chips.

Build an XP system with AIW. I suggest a motherboards from Asrock that has SATA, and use a good Seagate 2tb SATA drive for the capture files. Use an IDE drive for the OS, depending on the board (which is what I do on my capture Asrocks).

Buy this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372017479818
- DVI out for best quality viewing.
- No special cables needed.
- Get the basic ATI purple/domino breakout box (dongle). Search eBay for "ati purple".

Done. :)

"No special cables need" then search for the purple breakout box. :hmm: Okay actually it is a box, not a cable :D

Does it matter if it 8500, 9000, 9600 or above? As i see all of them need some cables / box none of them have a direct S-Video input. The memory also not important if it 6, 32, 64 or 128MB. It doesn't need for capture just sent the video signal through and convert it to digital.

I also found here in the cabinet an audio card. It is good for "capturing" audio? I thought i could spare some money with it:question:

-- merged --

All of that cards need thet purple box. Maybe can you suggest a card within Europe?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-Radeon-All-in-Wonder-AIW-9800-SE-128MB-AGP-DVI-Graphics-109-95700-12-VINTAGE/153818223418

This one is very similar you linked. I clearly see the "Rage Theatre" chip in the middle. I found it multple times mentioned on the forum. This is what we need? This make the card so valuable, here the magic happens?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/All-in-Wonder-Radeon-First-Radeon/392711109158

The purple box/dongle/cable is not special. It's used by all AIW cards.

That 9800 card is probably fine, but just be aware of noise patterning that seems to exist on some later 9000 series cards. Some of the 9600 are guilty, and I believe some of the 9800 are as well. You can search past forum posts for combinations such as "herringbone" and "power line noise" and "AIW". The more basic 9000/9200 always seemed to be fine.

Rage Theatre aka Theatre 100, or Theatre 200, and the chips on these cards, the reason the cards are so good.

That other ATI AIW (7500?) with DVI is probably also fine.

The RAM is graphics, and doesn't matter too much. 32mb is fine, 64mb and above are better. The most it controls is digital preview tearing, not really essential.

s-video is on the purple box/dongle.

Creative/SoundBlaster audio is often tinny or pitchy, the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is highly recommended for AIW builds.

It's a bit hard to search eBay EU from the US. Still, here is what looks like a useful AIW 9000 in Germany.

As lordsmurf said, there were/are some issues with some of the 9xxx series cards causing a "herringbone" pattern in captured video.
Here are a couple links about that:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...rence-ati.html

Look closely for the faint moving diagonal lines, especially in the lighter parts of the image.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ld-look-too%29

You have to compare the fuzzy pictures in that last post to an unmodified 9xxx card. I believe the 9800 you linked above is one of those questionable designs. Here's a picture of a possibly "bad" 9800:
Attachment 11411

Note the row of 5 capacitors and 2 coils below the tuner box. The fix was to reorient the 2 coils without disconnecting them or otherwise ruining the card. I'd prefer not to try this myself. I've seen this design on 9000's, 9700's, and 9800's. There are 9000's and 9700's (at least) that use a different design like the one lordsmurf linked and the one in Germany I linked. I have a 9700 that is a different design and I haven't noticed any herringbone patterns but I haven't done that much capture with it yet.

I guess "special" is in the eye of the beholder. They are readily available so less "special" that most of the others :wink2:. Special or not, you will absolutely need the purple input "cable" with the "box" on the end with the 4 input connections which are composite, s-video, R-audio, and L-audio. You will use the s-video only if you plug the audio directly into the sound card. (See previous discussion...)

For capture, 7xxx and 8xxx cards use the original Rage Theater (100), 9xxx use the Theater 200 which is considered slightly superior. All 9xxx cards will have at least 64MB memory so also a reason to get one.

The Audigy will work for capture but the TB Santa Cruz is preferred by most. I tried my old Audigy and found the sound recorded to be OK, but it is much more susceptible to random RF noises than the Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz preferred...

See above.

Maybe not a good choice??? See above.

Yes, Rage Theater (100) good, Theater 200 better.
OK: Rage Theater (100), 32 or 64 MB, not sure.

BW