Video8 and VHS conversion? (PAL)
 

Hi,
looks like this forum is one of the most interesting about old analogue video processing, so I have a question for you :wink2:

I have something like 50 old Video8, 15 VHS tapes and 4/5 Betamax tapes (all PAL) that I'd like to convert to digital.

I've started around more or less 10 years ago with a combo VCR+DVD Recorder, Sharp DV-RW270 (still working) in this way:
- Video8 Camera (no S-Video output) -> Composite -> Combo DVD Recorder Input
- VHS -> Direct conversion to DVD with combo unit
- Betamax VCR (don't remember the model, but still working) -> BNC to composite adapter -> Composite -> Combo DVD Recorder Input

Now I'd like to finish them, but looking at the old ones, quality was not pretty good, probably due to DVD Encoder and MPEG2 compression.

Now, considering that I don't have a big budget for the project (let's say 5/600 Euro and should be something that I can find in Europe), what will be the better way to proceed?
I was thinking to purchase a Sony Digital8 camera with firewire (Video8 with tapes inside the camera and VHS+Betamax with analog pass-through), but then found here on the forum that DV compression could be worst than S-Video and capture card, but it's not clear if the difference is noticeable also for PAL sources or only for NTSC ones.
I think I'll have to exclude any external TBC because they looks quite expensive, or you have some cheaper models?
For capture cards, which ones do you suggest that are compatible with Windows 10 64bit, maybe in can stay in 600 Euro with Sony Camera with S-Video and TBC, VHS VCR with TBC and capture card?

Thanks!

A Digital8 camera will not much improve, if at all..... VHS is just low resolution to start with, plus some recordings themselfs will not be optimal, your straight to DVD stays your best option, although it's mpeg2 loss will not be that strong, otherwise you will have to think about other VCR or capture devices, a good TBC comes at a price, that will be above your budget, keep an eye out for old equipment everywhere, it's mostly luck that will get you somewhere.
I notice you did some research yourself, yes a lot of capture device are legacy ones, and need old hard/software, if you're in for a search try to find a combo that will out the VHS deck over it's RCA component output, combo's that say "with dvd-player"
will only play the dvd deck over the component output just like your Sharp combo there are some models from Panasonic and few from Toshiba that will output over component, you have to read the pdf manual of such a combo for that, then, you need a capture device that has component input, like the Intensity series from BlackMagic Design, or go for Grass valley or Magewell.
BlackMagic will be the most affordable one of them, just forget trying to capture over HDMI this will fail often.
These options will be in your budget, even much below, only.. first try to find the right combo...
This is what still works for me, and doesn't need any TBC device or function of that kind.

A lot depends on what you intend to do with the captured material. Are you just wanting it in a format for future viewing as is, or do you plan to do restoration of the images as well? It also will depend on the condition of the recordings, both aging of the media as well as the original recording. Good recordings may let you get by without a TBC.

The BMD Intensity series cards generally work for analog and HDMI capture with Windows 10. However, the The Intensity Pro 4K does a very poor job with component SD capture, at least with NTSC source material. It does better with composite and s-video material. It can record lossless and motion JPEG formats. Files can be large. Keep in mind that the BMD cards do requires a good, stable, standards compliant signal which can be a problem with analog home recordings.

Dump to DVD recorder can work and is easy if the goal is to just have something to view. However, if the original material contains much noise, as is common with home recordings, the results can be bad because noise eats bits in the data stream. In general, composite is the worst analog video stream to try capture. I would avoid use of the 4, and especially the 6, and 8 hour DVD recorder modes. Tapes recorded in EP and LP mode can be problematic quality wise as well. Commercial tapes with copy protection can be problematic as well because much capture gear respects copy protection.

DV's issue with loss of color information is better in PAL than NTSC. Again, because DV is a compressed lossy data stream it will take a hit if you have noisy video. In general, composite is the worst analog video stream to try capture. On analog vs. Firewire capture, try both ways to see which way better meets your needs.

Hi,
thank you for the reply.
I'd like to digitalize everything, probably with not so much restoration (deinterlace and crop maybe). Just want to do it better than my Sharp DVD that shows lots of MPEG artifacts, especially on low quality tapes.
I've read other topics as well on the forum and within the budget I've been able to grab a Sony Dcr-trv355e (for Video 8), a Matrox MXO2 capture card, a Panasonic ES15 as TBC replacement and I still have something (not so much probably) for a VHS, I'm still looking for it.
For betamax I'll just keep mine because it's still working and S-Video Betamax are extremely rare.
I think within my budget that's probably the best I could get, then when I have everything I'll have a look at software side.

Matrox MXO2 capture card is much better then ati all in wonder cards for Pal signal better color and no Hanover bars at all and it does have some kind of internal TBC to :) but if the tape have macrovision copy protection then you get Blue picture

i have the Matrox MXO2 LE Max

Max = encoding files to H264 or realtime capture to H264

Max = in windows you can use VBR(variable bit rate) and CBR(constant bit rate)

Max = in Mac you have more options VBR(variable bit rate) and CBR(constant bit rate) and CQ(constant quality Lowest to Best)

but when i capture with Matrox MXO2 LE Max i capture to lossless codec like huffyuv and lagarith and ffv1

lately i have use VirtualDub2 and capture to FFV1 works very good :)

Your Sharp DVD can be set to record 1 hour or 6 to 8 hours video/audio on 1 DVD, yes, there is difference between those settings, recording only 1 hour on 1 DVD will give good/better results, both with MPEG2 or MP4 you can have good results, the difference is: with MP4 you can get smaller files, with HEVC even smaller files, keeping the same quality. it's what you want.
Sometimes a DVD recorder will also have a HDD "onboard" which allows you to do some editing, without a pc,
This way you also avoid dropped frames, while capturing uncompressed, on a PC with slow storage, you have a big chance on dropped frames, compressing straight into MPEG2 will compensate slow storage, but will give significant loss when editing this material in post.

Both in Windows and Mac you will have good options in that, maybe different use of codecs.

yes and of course on Mac i can capture to Prores with my MXO2 LE Max

To connect the MXO2 Le Max to my Macbook Pro i use "Matrox MXO2 Thunderbolt Adapter" about 50$ on ebay and the adapter only works on Mac

for windows i have the "Matrox PCIe host adapter" and "Matrox ExpressCard/34 adapter"

That's a nice device ! the Matrox MXO2 ! lots of options ! it does capture good quality ? When you capture with ProRes422, which do you use ? HQ, LT etc.. ?

i capture to Prores 422

i did read this page https://larryjordan.com/articles/pic...ion-of-prores/ about Prores and i think Prores 422 is good enough for VHS capture :) so i do not use Prores 422HQ to capture

Thanks for that link, i use even LT, but with some small characters i see some blur, i will step up to ProRes422 and see what this does, thanks !

ok hehe :)

MXO2 LE MAX it's exactly what I got.
Looks to be the best compromise, I think I'll go lossless but it will be useful to have hardware H264 if I need for some friends or something else.
Nowdays it's quite cheap too, because it's not working on latest OSX and Windows 10 it's not officially supported (but seems to be working fine with Windows 8 drivers).

Yes there is one MXO2 LE MAX right now on ebay for 149 euro quite cheap but it does not have the adapter that you connect it to the computer "Matrox PCIe host adapter" or "Matrox ExpressCard/34 adapter" or "Matrox MXO2 Thunderbolt Adapter(ONLY MAC)" so that it´s about 50 euro more

i did read that it works on OSX El capitan to but it´s easy to do dual boot on Mac to run a older Mac OS

on my Macbook Pro 2012 i run dual boot Catalina and Mountain Lion

If i did not have my Intensity Shuttle, i bought the MXO2 LE MAX ! great device great options !

Ok :) i have Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 and Intensity Shuttle thunderbolt and Ati all in wonder 9000 and 9200 and 2006 edition and i have Aja IO HD and some other cards to hehe my first capture card was a dazzle that you connect to parallel port and i still have it i'm that kind of person when i once buy something i never get rid of it hehe I'm An Idiot :)

Just for curiosity (I've already purchased a MXO2) which one is the best from the ones that you have?

i like Matrox MXO2 and AJA io HD the best for VHS and Video 8 Pal signal
maybe AJA io HD have more details in shadows but that can be the codec when i did last compare i did not have the adapter to MXO2 to conect it to a Mac so MXO2 capture was in windows huffyuv codec and Aja io HD was Mac Prores 422

but if it´s NTSC then i think Ati all in wonder cards are very close i think but i can not be sure because i do not have NTSC VCR or NTSC vhs tapes i have only test to capture NTSC dvds i have and that is not good test to compare

but for Pal signal vhs MXO2 and Aja io HD is better no Hanover bars and colors are better
exmple i did have one video8 tape that did have very bad Hanover bars and bad white balance white was yellowish when i did capture it with ati all in wonder card but the same tape with Matrox MXO2 no Hanover bars at all and white balance was good no yellowish
but of course that can be fixed with avisynth script

hmm last vhs captures i have done i did use VCR > Svideo_Cable > MXO2 > SDI_Cable > AJA IO HD

And Intensity Shuttle? I was tempted by it because it's still supported, but I guess it's a "consumer" card instead of the Matrox professional one

yes it´s not so good for VHS and quality not the best but it does not have any problem with Hanover bars like Ati all in wonder has with Pal signal

here you can see MXO2 Le Max and Aja Io HD shadow test

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...aja-io-hd.html

MXO2 Le Max = windows and lagarith codec capture
Aja IO HD = Mac Prores 422 capture

in that post i say that MXO2 Le Max do not have any Internal Proc AMP that i can adjust but on Mac and Final Cut 7 it does have Proc AMP that i can adjust when i go to "log and capture" :) so it´s posible to adjust proc amp before capture on MXO2

Welcome. :)

That's a lot of tapes to do, so you want to do the correctly the first time. Plan carefully, don't just buy the first item you see.

That recorder was lousy, and just amplified whatever MPEG compression issues existed. Certain DVD recorders are known for quality, coming from analog tapes (specific LSI decks, mostly JVC).

#1 problem = no TBCs in your workflow. So quality issues, and capturing issues.

The camera is fine for playback of V8/Hi8/D8, but not for passthrough if you want better quality as stated.

Correct.

In NTSC, there is drastic 50% obvious color loss, especially viewed on modern 50" HDTV sets.
In PAL, it's just slightly fuzzy. Color is like DVD, but clarity is slightly less, due to how the 4:2:0 is cosited.

Both PAL and NTSC have macroblocks.

Some sort of external TBC is required, not optional. Whether you go down the TBC(ish) route with ES10/15, or otherwise. Just realize that the more tapes you have, and more varied the origins, the more likely you'll run into issues lacking full/actual TBC. The D8 camcorder should have line TBC for the V8/Hi8 tapes, but that still does nothing from dropped frames.

I have several in the marketplace, for $150 USD or less. Then you can put that extra $500 or so towards TBC. There are some great TBC(ish) combo of ES10/15+DVK that can be built in that $450 range (sometimes less, depends on supply). Then you'll have everything needed.

Also remember to buy it, use it, resell it. These are not forever purchases, but project purchases. You don't stick it in a drawer or closet when done. Recoup funds, these items hold value. So perhaps knowing that, budget can be increased?

False and false.

Component is not at all suggested, nor are the devicdes from Blackmagic, Magewell, or Canopus / Grass Valley. In fact, those are literally the worst suggestions, with only Easycap/EZcap (Easycrap) cards being worse.

Rarely.
It's an exception to the rule, but everybody thinks they'll be the exception. You'll have better odds gambling in Vegas/wherever.

This is because Blackmagic cards were designed for NON-HOMEMADE sources, such as BetacamSP in studios. Not VHS, or whatever you shot in camcorders.

Not just bad, but the DVD version WILL look worse than the original tape. The goal of quality hardware is to not "make it better" as much as "not lose" anything. Consumer VCRs lost quality, compared to what existed on the tape. The ES10/15 can compensate some for this, but it's why better S-VHS VCRs are generally recommended. (Since this OP has only 15 tapes, I'd suggested the ES10/15 + current VCR, though I do so reluctantly.)

I'm neutral on MX02 right now, still testing. It is needlessly expensive compared to some of the other options, especially if watching the budget.

Otherwise the plan sounds fine so far.

Don't buy capture software. Use VirtualDub.

ATI AIW doesn't have hanover bars. It can happen to any card, electrical interference noise.
MX02 doesn't have TBC.

Never capture directly to H.264 if quality matters (or even if it doesn't). H.264 is a highly compressed format, and needs pre-processing to look decent. It also handles SD interlace poorly, which is what all tapes are.

Huffyuv best.
Lagarith has too much overhead, causes dropped frames. (It captures in single thread/core, so overall computer CPU power doesn't matter.)

No. That's not accurate. It's not a simple matter of making smaller files. Each has drastically different needs to encode, and different pitfalls to watch for. For example, MPEG has blocks, H.264 just smears it.

Don't capture uncompressed. Capture lossless.

Yep. And for most things. I rarely do anything outside of ProRes422, when using Mac.

Until the next update. Good luck. :unsure:

about the MXO2 tbc here you can read that it has some kind of tbc or maybe matrox support forum admin is wrong

http://forum.matrox.com/mxo/viewtopi...1acfa32e97972b

and about the hanover bars i have seen that many times on my Ati all in wonder cards i think it´s called hanover bars and if i pump up the saturation then it´s visible on all captures but this error is only on Pal Signals of course
maybe i do something wrong with ati all in wonder cards or do not understand
all my ati all in wonder cards are Pal or i mean they have Pal tv tuner except the usb´s i have does are Ntsc but that does not matter of course

but on mxo2 and aja io hd captures i can not see hanover bars even if i pump the saturation to max

You must remember that "TBC" is a wide term, often used loosely, and can mean anything. Remember, the ADVC-300 had a TBC that did absolutely nothing (99%+ worthless TBC, pathetic).

As I often joke, sometimes I wonder if my toaster has a TBC. :laugh:

Yes, hanover bars happen, on any card.

With ATI, it's often a matter of components in the computer, shielding (or lack thereof) on the specific card model, and just external power related noises seeping into the electrical. USA/NTSC may not have hanover bars, but there are others nuisances to deal with. It can even vary from exact card to card, same model/brand/etc. It's never fun to trroubleshoot. But power is almost always the issue. Sometimes it can be as simple as replacing the computer power cord. Interference issues can be pervasive.

I'm glad you found a capture solution that is working.

I tested the MX02 about 10 years ago, but am in the midst of re-testing it again. At the time, I did like the card, but need to put it through my current more-stringent testing procedures. Hence having a neutral opinion on it, at the moment.

ok now i know :)

you should explain this one ? uncompressed isn't lossless ? LordSmurf ?

That's BS ! Just have a good PC/Mac ! component works all the time for me ! no visible degradation.

Uncompressed are huge files with high data rates. There are lossless video compression systems. Consider file compression for example; ZIP files are compressed, and they are lossless, work well for ascii-based documents and spreadsheets, and generally much smaller than the uncompressed files.

What counts is that you are satisfied with the results you get with your system.

The recommendations from this heavy hitters here are based on their experience with what is legacy at best; i.e., a wide variety of source material recorded on consumer gear (e.g., VHS, video8. etc.) , available equipment (much of which is 20+ years beyond manufacturer's support), and materials aging often under less than ideal conditions. It also reflacts their experience in restoring old analog video to look the way it should have when new.

The gear they recommend is that which they have found works well for them across the wide spectrum of analog media out there, especially the consumer/home use formats. The gear they downgrade may be for a variety of reasons such as:
- using DV (or other) compression which is lossy and does not perform well with noisy video,
- suitability of the output file for extensive image correction processing
- difficulty with video signals that are not precisely within spec with respect to timing, waveform, and amplitudes
- internal over- or poorly-processing the video signal read from tape
- added internal distortion and/or noise
- sloppy/jittery output
- use of unnecessary signal conversion steps that can add distortion, phase shifts, and noise
- limited ability to"future proof" the capture for possible revisiting in the future.

As to use of high end professonal broadcast gear for home formats; most of that gear is designed to work optimally with a high end professional signal. Results with home grown VHS can be problematic. Its kind of like Formula one race cars run best on that level fuel, and would not like being fed the low octane swill from the local cut rate generic gas station. It is a matter of matching the tool to the job.

It becomes a question of how good is good enough. The bottom line is; "you pays your money and takes your choices."

BTW I received the Digital8 Camera and played some tapes connected with composite to my Samsung 43" 4K (haven't received the MXO2 and ES15 yet). Seems it's working properly and it doesn't have big tracking issues (horizontal lines) even if most of the tapes have been recorded in LP, but especially on high contrast scenes (IE people with dark ski suit on the snow) and/or when people are moving quickly I see some small lines around the objects.
Unfortunately it's quite difficult to record it with a phone in front of the TV but up to me looks to be some de-interlacing + upscaling issue of the TV (probably not optimized for video composite in) and maybe caused by LP sources, what do you think?

@Gabri: You are correct Gabri, I have a fairly new Sony Bravia (LCD) tv, but it does a lousy job displaying a component video signal, on my retina screen i see much better detail even when enlarged... the Sony displays weird artefacts, the tapes recorded in LP mode, will probably not transfer that good into a file... some artefacts from your Video8 tapes can also come the low quality sensor chip of that camera, noise you have always in the dark black areas, slightly darker contrast then normal will help to disguise that.


@dpalomaki: Thankyou dpalomaki, yes, you're right, that's the reason, so most of the time it's a balance between options to consider, and also try other things, and these don't have to be exact the same things that are happening in the lordsmurf universum :)

btw .. the good recommended TBC's are also of broadcast quality/background, consumer TBC's are not recommended, only a "green version" with different firmware seems to be of quality in the consumer range of TBC devices.
Transfering DV through Firewire is just not easy on a Mac while this no problem on a windows PC... :(