Why are Hi8 DV file sizes so large?
 

I'm converting Hi8 tapes to digital on my Mac. Working on my first one ever this evening.

Data flow goes from a Sony Hi8 cam ... to DataVideo TBC-1000 (bypassing audio) ... to Sony PD150 camcorder which has analog to digital pass-through (ie A/D conversion) ... to iMovie on my Mac.

I didn't see any settings on iMovie. I guess it just automatically sets up and I just hit import.

So my finished result tonight was 1h 37m of footage successfully encoded to the hard drive. Great video, great audio, no problems.

But the file size is 22.5 GB of space.

Is that correct? Various sources online tell me I should be at 11 GB per hour of footage. Seems like my resulting file is quite large, about 25-30% over, which will catch up to me as I get further into my box of over 200 Hi8 tapes.

Is this what I'm supposed to be getting for a 1h 37m encode? Or do I need to find some setting that might be set too high?

(My original tape was recorded in LP, but I can't imagine that makes any difference to encoded file size.)

That's not big compared to lossless capture via a USB capture device, DV is lossy and half the color info is compromised, It may look good but when you start to know its limitation you'll want to capture better first and encode later to a modern codec that is more efficient than the ancient DV.

thank you, latreche34.

I wonder if you - or anyone - know ... am I supposed to be encoding my Hi8 videos to .MOV files? I vaguely remember seeing .DV the last time I tried this. I opened the iMovie library to see the actual encoded file and the suffix is .MOV.

Am I planning to encode 200 Hi8 tapes to .MOV format before editing? Or should I be changing a setting to get a different format/container?

Ideally you should not be capturing to DV (lossy and 4:1:1 chroma subsampling). Especially if you plan on doing any restoration work (even minimally) to the captured video. Here is a great recent post detailing some of the issues with DV capture: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post68314

If you are using the PD150 as an A/D converter then I believe the only digital output on that device is DV, so not ideal. So that device will be your quality limiting factor when capturing.

If you already have a TBC-1000 then you might as well take the extra final step to get an ATI All In Wonder Capture Card/Windows XP capture computer setup. If you read through that recent thread I linked, many questions will probably be answered. The ATI All In Wonder would be your A/D step replacing your PD150.

There are two basic routes for doing ATI All In Wonder (AIW) capture. Use an ATI AIW AGP/PCIe Card or one of the ATI AIW 600 USB sticks. The AGP/PCIe route requires making a legacy Windows XP system which might seem daunting at first but is really not too bad. I believe you can use more modern OS's for the ATI AIW 600 route. Both routes use virtualdub for capturing software. This forum includes an amazingly ridiculous wealth of information on how to go about making one of these setups. Basic workflow would be Hi8 --> TBC-1000 --> ATI AIW Card/Stick --> Windows XP running Virtualdub. The file format you would capture to would be codec: HuffYUV container: avi.

Alternatively there is the SDI workflow that seems promising. latreche34 has written extensively about that here. The basic workflow would be Hi8 --> TBC-1000 --> Analog to SDI converter --> SDI Capture Card --> Computer with SDI Capture Software. Actually might not need the TBC-1000 in there or not, I am very new to this workflow and have never used it. Read more about this workflow here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...tualdub-2.html

I have used the ATI/AIW for hundreds of tapes so far and it has worked out AMAZINGLY for me. If you have 200 tapes to do then I think it is worth it to invest in one of those two above workflows. If this is a temporary project you can always resell the gear afterwards for not much (if any) loss.

You won't get much info here if you intend to stick with a DV workflow as it is only recommended when coming from a DV source. And if using PD150 I think your only workflow option is DV. The files you have captured so far are probably in the DV codec contained in an MOV container.

Edit: Actually looks like PD150 is DVCAM so it could potentially be 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 chroma subsampling? I have no idea- I know nothing about the DV world. If I see DV I stay away- it seems like a tangled mess of formats which I guess is par for the course in video world. Regardless, I believe it is still not recommended to capture from. However, I defer to other posters who know more about DV stuff.

The number I usually see is "about 13 GB/hour".

Based on my largest DV file, DV takes about 228,351,678 bytes per minute or 13,701,100,680 bytes per hour (13.7 GB/hour or 12.8 GiB/hour). Based on this, I would expect your 1h 37m file to be about 22,150,112,766 bytes, so 22.5 GB seems about right.

Thank you for the reply, sevarre. I should have mentioned I'm going to a Mac. The A/D converter, if I need to buy another one, will need to be a standalone unit, not a card.

And suddenly I see the need for something beyond my PD150 camcorder's internal A/D convertor. I have a stack of 200+ Hi8 tapes, which the TBC-1000 is processing very nicely - but I also have a stack of miniDV tapes which are chock full of glitches, blue screen segments, crash edits, etc.

I thought I would just be playing the miniDV tapes into the Mac from the PD150, but iMovie is not liking all those cuts in the signal. I'm not able to simply play a miniDV tape into the Mac because of time code issues.

Geez, it took me forever to learn and understand and finally acquire everything I needed to get signal from my Hi8 cam to the TBC-1000 to the Sony A/D camcorder to the Mac ... just so I could encode my analog tapes.

It never occurred to me that my digital tapes would now have a hard time getting captured.

I googled and clicked around to see if there's such a thing as a digital-input time base corrector, but that's a long and slow read because I'm out of my league trying to understand the product descriptions.

Does anyone know how that gets handled? What do you do when you have a digital tape with bad time code?


ps. I just read an old old post that talked about how iMovie had (had!) a pref whereby I could keep capturing even at dropped frames. There was actually a shut-off in the prefs that told iMovie to ignore time code issues. I looked for it, but that pref command is no longer there. Can't find any way to tell iMovie to just let everything in, glitches and all.

If these were made with a consumer camcorder, then just capture the tape via analog over s-video. The optics and codecs in consumer camcorders didn't actually resolve 720x480 of actual detail, and the 540x480 mac of s-video is close enough to capture the image detail.

For the reason you state, too many signal breaks, is exactly why I prefer to capture over analog. The image quality trade-off is negligle, but the time trade-off is huge. You'll also notice that the breaks cause moments to be lost in the "capture"/transfer, whereas the analog transfer loses nothing.

Lossless 4:2:2 video is about 25-40gb/hour, depending on codec. On a Mac, you should be capturing it to ProRes422.

DV is exactly 13/gb hour. If you're getting 22gb for 90 minutes, that is DV, and you'll also suffer the effects of DV blockiness and chroma compression, when using it for conversion. (For MiniDV tape transfer, not Hi8 analog source, it's already DV compressed.)

You do not want to compress your Hi8 to DV. It will look worse than the source tape. Don't do that, assuming you want quality results.

Reading threads like this is really depressing. Analog to lossy DV? Mac? iMovie? .Mov? Edit lossy codecs?
Why didn't you just put your Hi8 tapes in a microwave?
Forgive me, folks, but this is just too sad.

Look at the bright side. Not once in this thread did anyone mention HDMI!

Oops.

Hello lordsmurf,

Since you sold me the TBC-1000 and that's working out quite well, would you save me the time of a bunch of research and learning and recommend an A/D converter to replace my Sony PD150 camcorder? (And a couple alternate choices?)

I'm obviously going to need an A/D converter if I'm going to use the PD150 for analog playback of miniDV tapes ... as well as, yes, I'm shooting for image quality from my Hi8's, so I'm happy to drop a little cash for better quality A/D conversion.

I don't need anything commercial quality. These are home movies for my own enjoyment. But they are family videos, so of course I want to preserve as much quality within reason.

Again ... I'm going from a Hi8 camcorder to the TBC-1000 to an A/D converter to a firewire/thunderbolt converter to an iMac ... if that makes any difference.

There is capture card guide around here just look for it. And no miniDV and D8 are captured via firewire, you don't capture those from an analog output because you will be doing a D to A to D which will affect the quality.

There's no such thing as "commercial quality". Quality is either good, or bad, the end. It's somewhat binary. In fact, ironically, "commercial" methods (TV studios, documentary filmmakers) are often worse, due to lack of expertise in consumer analog formats, and thus using wrong hardware or software.

Hi8 camera > TBC-1000 > DV input does work. It has compromises in quality, namely macroblocking and chroma reduction (the latter of which is far worse in NTSC).

It really depends on the situation. Sometimes analog conversion of DV is preferable, and quality remains perceivably unchanged.

It's still a double conversion when you don't really have to and the end result is digital anyway.

I searched around a few minutes. Found lots of posts about capture cards, but no "capture card guide".

I thought these would be substantial boxes, like my TBC-1000, but when I google A/D converters, I'm seeing dinky little things that look like in-line dimmer sliders on a lamp. I had no idea this was such a tiny piece of tech.

Still, with lordsmurf's comment about "they're either good or bad" without pointing me to a tutorial, I have no idea what I'm getting myself into. Sounds like I'm doomed to a boatload of searching and reading before making a buy.

Seems like insight and criteria that could be summed up in a couple sentences. Still, I appreciate the help I've gotten so far. Perhaps someone will add something like "Look at the XYZ converter, good for Mac, and here's why."

Boom, two sentences and I'd probably understand everything.

That's what every wise person should do anyway, Why would you think it's a doom?

I might recommend something for you that either will not work for your situation or it is over your budget, The consensus is to gather opinions and reviews about these capture devices and see which ones rated better and suit your needs. The rule of thumb avoid any capture device with generic brands such as easycap, elgato ....etc, avoid modern capture devices that are made for HD/4K, avoid scan converters such as analog to HDMI devices, Once you have narrowed down your list to a few you can come back here and ask if the members have any experience with them.

Here is a good place to start:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ti-wonder.html
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...der-hacks.html
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...i-600-usb.html

- ATI AIW Radeon AGP/PCI/USB, not a fan of PCIe but it works
- ATI 600 USB and clones
- certain Pinnacle USB cards

Chipsets matters, software matters.

This sort of issue is exactly why I make capture cards and TBCs (and sometimes VCRs and workflows) available in the marketplace. I do the work of testing, so you don't have to. I know what to look for, when you don't. Then it's just plug-and-play for you, and you know it's good stuff that will handle the job with quality.

But if you want to fully DIY, research the cards, go for it. There are about 20 years of posts here, and you're not asking anything new. Lots of read. You're in the correct place for the info you seek.

Just realize that when it comes time to buy, places like eBay are gambling and not buying. Same for Amazon 3rd-party marketplace. The actual acquiring gets tricky, may be costly mistakes, the researching was free and easy (even if time consuming).

Thank you, gentlemen! I feel like now I can get started, rather than googling "video capture cards" which starts me out in deep water and easily demoralizes. :eek:




What he said. :laugh:


I opted not to research TBC's. I just figured out from reading posts that lordsmurf was reliable with the knowledge - and I let him tell me what to get. Saved a lot of time and hassle and, so far, the TBC-1000 is working flawlessly, although no, I don't have the technical knowledge to tell you why. I have no interest in learning about video encoding gear, at least not that much. I'm not planning to go professional or even continue the hobby after my 250+ Hi8's are done. I just want to encode my tapes and be done with it. :)

latreche34 and lordsmurf,

You both mentioned the ATI 600 ... but lordsmurf also said "and clones". I don't know what constitutes a clone of an ATI 600.

I read through a number of threads on this forum and someone (Sanlyn) favorably compared the ATI to the Diamond VC500 USB 2.0. They have one specifically made for Macs, too, and it works with iMovie. Sanlyn wrote that many people on this forum use the ATI 600 as well as this Diamond.

LordSmurf, are you okay with this capture device? It's USB 2.0. I assume USB 2.0 is fast enough to process my Hi8 tapes as well as my miniDV in real time.

Hmmm. Just scrolled down on the Amazon page and there are numerous bad reviews saying that every glitch in the video causes the software to think that the tape is copy protected and it shuts off. One reviewer wrote that he can't get more than a few minutes of tape in at a time. Also read that I must use the supplied software with the device. I can't replace it with iMovie or whatever to get around the copy protection sensitivity. No bueno.

https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-VC500...007QCIBX8?th=1

You don't need USB for miniDV, you need firewire port.

Thanks, latreche34.

If I understand this right, my miniDV tapes are so glitchy that they won't encode properly, so lordsmurf says to S-video them out of the camera and capture them via analog.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I would still be using USB for that?

Seems strange that there would be such glowing reviews for the Diamond VC500 on this forum, but so many people in the Amazon reviews stating they have nothing but trouble with the copy-protection sensitivity of the software.

No, the VC500 is not a clone.

The "clone" specifically refers to certain cards also using the same (or near-same) chipsets. However note that most clones are harder to find than the actual ATI 600 USB. "Clone" is somewhat of a misnomer, but the ATI 600 USB also came first (hence clones). To muddy the situation even more, the clones all come from company that used shared model numbers. So you can't search for "model XYZ" (and Tevion goes further, has no models whatsoever), as what you think you're getting may not actually be a clone. Again, it's confusing ... which is why I've been providing capture cards in the marketplace for the past few years. I'm taking the guesswork out of finding the right gear.

If you capture DV over analog, which can be fine, even necessary, you'll use an analog USB card. Not Firewire.

The problem with the VC500 is that it appears to have mid-production changes. which give odd results. The worst result is an AGC that can rival the ATI 650/750 cards, which are infamous for bad AGC. The main chipset may (or may not) be unchanged (unconfirmed), but something else is definitely different and variable. Either the non-main chips, or even programming on chips. Look deeper on the forum -- it's definitely not all glowing. sanlyn appears to have one of the problem-free cards, but others have not fared as lucky (including myself).

That said, Amazon reviews more often reveal the knowledge (or lack thereof) of users, and is not a reflection on the device itself. Heck, even something as basic as a can opener gets bad reviews from idiots that don't know how to open cans!

latreche34 is correct about using Firewire for DV transfer/"capture", but that method can be problematic. For example, when the tape refuses to capture without barfing out an unreasonable number of clips. (Even WinDV can do this, even though you've specifically set it not to. And it is frustrating. Analog capture solves the frustration, and quality lost is negligible if any. Consumer camcorder DV simply isn't that great.)

Thank you, LS.

My goodness, no exaggeration, you really are a remarkable reservoir of knowledge.

Okay, the VC500 is off the shortlist. I would jump on the ATI 600, but it appears out of production or out of stock. There's also the matter of a converter's software being Mac friendly or at least just connecting to iMovie without proprietary software.

I hope you'll be around to thumb up or thumb down my buying decision before I commit. Your advice to buy the TBC-1000 worked out great for me. It's almost comical how futile trying to encode HI8's without a TBC was - and then seeing (so far) ALL of my videos go in uninterrupted with the 1000.

So yeah, I'm a believer in letting you do the research so I don't have to! No need to question your suggestions. I can just get on with the work of encoding tapes. :laugh:

The best hardware is out of production, sold only on second-hand markets -- ie,this forum's marketplace subforum, eBay, etc.

LS,

I've been searching A/D converters for my Mac. All the units you recommend are only available used, as you know. I'd like to get something new. Is there no new A/D converter you can recommend for my Hi8 > TBC > Mac workflow? Ideally something that will let me use iMovie as the importing software, as I'm already used to that - although I'll learn some propriety software if necessary.

I'm getting so frustrated with how much there is to learn and the lack of recommendations on new gear - not to mention wildly conflicting reviews on Amazon ... that I'm this close to just throwing in the towel and using my PD150 so I can get on with things whether or not I have image quality. Second rate image quality is still better than NO image quality if I'm not getting anything encoded.

Any suggestions other than the used units you already mentioned?

Thanks for your help so far.

-John

Unfortunately there is no new brand name capture devices being made, All Chinese crap or expensive professional ones that are made for HD/4K and capturing analog SD video was just a lousy addition (even the designers themselves never lived the VHS era). If this is overwhelming for you just use whatever you got and save the tapes so one day you will do them the right way.

Ah. I didn't understand that until you came right out and said it.

I now have a lead on an ATI 600 USB clone. I hope to be back to encoding in a week or so.

:congrats:

Hi LS,

The ATI 600 clone converter arrived yesterday. Everything looks good.

If I can ask you another question, you mentioned earlier on the thread that, (me being a Mac user), I should capture to ProRes 422.

I know you are not a Mac person, but is iMovie as good as any other software for my purposes? Will I be able to adjust resolution codec in iMovie to ProRes 422 per your recommendation?

You know enough about Mac stuff to be able to recommend a specific codec resolution (something I wasn't even aware of until you brought it up) so I wonder if you can tell me if iMovie is good enough or if that software somehow compromises the video quality.

Use Videoglide for the ATI 600/clones.
Capture 640x480 ProRes422.

Not a Mac person? Nope! I've used Apples for many years, currently have my own Mac Mini with 10.6 (10.10 upgrade failed, so system currently down). Used FCP and DVDSP for many years, when still doing lots of DVD authoring. In addition to Mac and Win, we've used Linux GUI desktops here for the past decade. WinXP for capture, Win7 work laptops/desktops, Win8/10 for tablets. I'm platform agnostic. These are just tools. Mac is just barely passable at capturing, Linux even less so. At worst, my Mac knowledge is a bit dated by a few years, since not using newest OSX/macOS.

Sac John, would you mind saying what you got?

Thanks, Al

Sheesh. I can't seem to post a simple picture this week. Let's try again.

Anyway, it the Tevion High Speed DVD Maker.

One thing that MUST be noted is that not all "Tevion" devices are the same.

All Tevions share the name "DVD Maker", and have no model numbers. Even cards that appear the same may not be the desired 600 "clones". There are specific identifiers that I must look for, and ultimately the only true test is to have it in-hand and installed.

Again, due to the all the wild variables, and risky buys (even for me, much worse for novices/newbies), this is precisely why I'm making the hardware our community needs available in the forum. I'm the "easy button". Insert a few dollars (buy the gear), and press me. :)

Years ago, in decades past, I'd suggest this item or that. Feedback was sometimes mixed, and I was dumbfounded by negative comments. Many times, it was user error. But not always. The most confusing was when it was peers, people that I knew weren't dummies. The variable was the condition, production/sub-versions, etc. Ever since I've been supplying hardware, past 5 years, such comments are extremely rare, as I've vetted the device. People don't realize how many bad items I come across, and reject.