Fastest way to transfer VHS tapes to PC?
 

Hello guys, I'm obviously new to the forum :laugh: ..

So I've seen a 2016 video from "The Oldskool PC" which I'm sure u all watched.

I'm planning to transfer family and friends VHS tapes to PC and then save them in Google Drive, that means i will have tons of tapes to transfer and I want to find the fastest way to transfer them without sacrificing quality too much. 60 fps isn't that important to me because I guess it the size of the videos will be doubled (right?), and I don't want the videos to be sized too much GB

I will be happy to hear advice and suggestion on specific products and software that will allow me to make this process fast as possible.

I dont have a limit budget so if there's a device that making this procces fast, or easy to automatically do some stuff but its expensive, im willing to pay the price.

Right now im thinking of buying the Elgato Video Capture but im not sure if there's other options like the video from "The Oldskool PC" which can be better for me..


Thanks!

"The Oldskool PC" is using a POS capture card, no TBC, and it shows. His conversion job is hideous. In his tiny test capture alone, he's dropping/inserting tons of frames. He's not doing HD or 60fps, that's all nonsense. About the only thing he has correct is to use VirtualDub, but everything else is wrong. Terrible VirtualDub settings are selected.

Basic conversion is this: VCR > TBC > capture device
Not just any hardware, but specific ones recommended for consumer sources, such as VHS, and of quality.

The easiest capture device is a DVD recorder.
So: VCR > TBC > DVD recorder.
But quality is (can be) reduced compared to modern viewing and quality standards. It depends on the target output/delivery.

The cheapest you can do is
- a non-TBC suggested VCR (again, not any POS VCR, not even a VCR you "think" is good),
- an ES10/15 for minimalist TBC(ish), and cross your fingers / pray you don have issues, as it's not a real TBC, just TBC(ish) in function
- a quality capture card (because those are cheap, under $150); don't be a sucker and buy cheapo Chinese cards, nor HD cards that do SD poorly

Elgato is Elcrapo.
Easycrap is Easycrap.
Both are deserved nicknames.

ATI 600 USB or clones are great, certain Pinnacle USB. This is why I make capture cards available in the marketplace, to help you skip the research/searching, use a known-good device. A god rule is this: if you see th card sold "brand new", it's not what you want. The best hardware is no logner made, but is available in excellent condition on 2nd-hand markets like the forum's marketplace subforum and (to a lesser degree) eBay.

Hi, thanks for the information!
i did not quite understand everything you said because im not familiar with certain terms..
the quality of the digital videos from Elgato or "The Oldskool PC" looks pretty fine to my eyes. But im looking for the fastest way to do it.
Is there such a product that can run the tape very fast, so as the sampling rate will be faster, and just saved the file in my PC in a couple seconds? i dont like the idea that i need to wait for the whole 6 hours tape to play in order to record it.

im not looking for the cheapest option, as i mentioned, i actually prefer a better product and i dont really care about the price right now..

whats good about ati 600? I couldn't find even a single video explanation on how to use this device so i dont see a reason to use this instead Elgato for example.. :(
im not a professional video guy, i dont see the differences between the quality.. all i want is the fastest and easiest way to make the transfer

All video is realtime. What you want does not exist.

When it comes to capture cards, the chipset is the primary difference. You don't need guides to use it -- it is the card. Elgato is a crap chipset, terrible drivers, etc.

The exception is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Elgato-100204...language=en_US
Maybe.
It can be an ATI 600 USB semi-clone (same video chip, different audio).
Or not.
Blame production changes for messing with cards. So it's not always safe to declare certain cards/models "safe" to use.

There is no such thing as "professional quality" and "home quality", There is only good or bad. Both good and bad can be achieved, at home or a studio, with the same equipment. The main obstacles to video are putting forth initial costs for the hardware required, reading/learning, and time required. Most people are cheap and lazy, so their projects will usually fail early on.

I wonder why it has to be at real time. Im an engineer and i know about sampling and reconstruction, i don't see a reason why is it impossible to run the tape faster, sample faster and then reconstruct the video :S.. do u have any idea on that? i don't find the problem online im really curious about it.

about the devices i guess i will stick with the new Elgato devices... i don't really see a reason to use the old ATI 600 because if i will have a problem with it no one can help me.. i prefer the normal device everyone using..

Many thanks for ur help

That makes no sense.
You're in a forum of users that know about this device. What problems?

If anything, Elgato will give you problems.

First of all i would like to thank you for even replying me because i feel very newibe here at the forum..

this whole project is first for my self, so i will have my family tapes on my google drive any where any time.
and second, for business - meaning i want to take people tapes, and do the work of transformation so they could enjoy having their physical tape on their digital pcs and phones.

if i really want to do this for people, it means i want to have 10 PCs, with 10 VCRs with 10 ATI 600 cards, so i can capture 10 tapes at a time and make the process faster.

but! i don't understand whats wrong with buying 80$ Elgato device and do this process with a simple VCR i will found online for like 20$, instead of buying 10 specific VCR which cost each around 200-300$, and 10 ATI readers..

is there a difference is the digital movie size?
when u say quality difference, u mean colors are more nice? or resolution? what exactly is the different?
are there video noise and stutters? what exactly the problem with Elgato devices or even cheaper one?

I'll just chime in with this since lordsmurf is usually too modest to.

lordsmurf

Decades of work with video equipment and capturing, much of it professionally. Used and tested dozens, if not hundreds of different types of video equipment. Thousands of hours of video capture experience. A true willingness to help others achieve the best possible captures (admittedly sometimes a bit extreme), especially for irreplaceable, one chance only (tapes and equipment can self destruct at any time) family moment.

YouTuber

Hey, I can get views off this and make money! Also, I can completely ignore comments or state "Well, it's good enough" to anyone who questions my techniques.

If you saw it, the differences would be stark and obvious. Eventually, I'd like to show this in videos. But right now, I don't have time. Busy.

As an analogy, you're suggesting everything wet tastes the same. Water, milk, beer, piss, etc.
Elgato is somewhere between beer and piss.
The only way you'd like it is if you have zero tastes buds (or messed up buds).

Going back to the video, not seeing a difference is being blind.

Colors are not "more nice". Better cards show colors more accurate. Bad cards show the colors washed out, tint shifted, etc. But it goes beyond that. Cheap cards don't know how to interpret the signal, and all sorts of visual hell breaks loose. Everything from dropped frames and audio sync errors (even with TBC), to ghastly video values of luma and chroma.

We're not talking something minor, but obvious issues that any random person can see (though it must be pointed out to some people that are obtuse or flighty).

Making more sense yet? :)

You're lucky he's on your thread, especially before some other members who are just above the YouTuber you saw in the video in experience. Question less, read and digest more of what lordsmurf is writing. Especially this article: http://www.digitalfaq.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm

Too long and didn't read? More tapes, the more likely you'll run into problems that can only be solved with the proper hardware, software and knowledge. There's 100% certainty that the Youtuber(s) that post these kind of videos cherry picked the best video capture to show.

As with most things in life, you'll gain far more by learning and asking knowledgeable questions, than just asking about things you don't agree with.

Edit: BTW, before you think I'm just brown nosing. I've at been at videohelp even longer than I've been here, even before my join date there and I didn't and sometimes still always agree with him. But like any adult, the more I learn and understand what he's saying, I've come to realize he's correct far more often than completely wrong. :salute:

This is going into my great quotes folder! I literally LOLed! Thank goodness I wasn't drinking something. And no, not piss! :laugh:

Please use it again the next time a certain poster with two first names posts here or at videohelp!!

Yes, Thanks!

I definitely agree with you! I wanted a motivation to really get into it and learn about this because until now i felt like the output of the easy way, compared to the "hard way" and more expensive one will be pretty much the same.. Thanks!

:congrats:

for conclusion, i want to begin with basic equipment, maybe in the future i will upgrade to the better way you guys are using.

if i have a 100$ budget, buying 20$ used vcr and 80$ Elgato is the best option (from options under 100$), if not.. what is the best 100$ budget for buying vcr and capture card? i know its crap but still.. this is the budget right now..

6 hours video tape captured in two seconds? Where have you been living
I’m an engineer too
Since money is not an object pay someone to do it for you

instead of groan on me, please tell me why is it impossible to run the tape 2 times faster, and sample 2 times faster. whats the problem with that? im really curious to know.. for my opinion and i might be wrong, it looks like that the VCR devices are meant to play tapes only (obviously), means it has no reason to run the tape faster, and if it does run the tape faster, than the vcr should have a memory device that he can store the data, but then we are talking about digital components which wasnt used at that time. So my point is, is it possible to build a device nowdays that will run the tape faster, sample it faster, and save the video..?
if its not possible and its so obvious please share with me the reason..

You need to read up on how VHS works. "VCR Troubleshooting and Repair" by Capelo is a good start. "Video and Camcorder Servicing and Technology" from Beeching is another.

$100 budget barely covers a decent USB capture card.
Not VCR.
Not TBC.

Read this: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm
Note difference in home vs. pro workflows.
Pro is just expanded home setup.

The first problem is finding gear that can do it. While 2x speed dubbers were generally available for analog audio tape/cassettes, to my knowledge that was not the case for VHS video tape. As an engineer you could no doubt design and prototype one, test it, being sure to provide the necessary controls to allow it to cope with the substantial variations found in VHS recordings, especially home recordings from various camcorders and VCRS. The signals recorded on VHS tape are much more complex than analog audio tape being comprised on various FM and AM RF signals in a helical scan as well as linear analog audio. Sadly, the guys with the green eye shades and sleeve garters will tell you there is an insignificant market for that type of gear, no way to recover the cost, so it would have to be done as labor of love/hobby. (High sped VHS duplication was possible [e.g., Sony Sprinter or Otari TMD] but that is a different problem.)

For the rest of us that means VHS (and related tape formats) have to be copied in real time - it takes an hour to capture an hour of tape; to that add setup time.

I sounds like you want fast, and you want "just good enough" as opposed to "as near perfect as is feasible." Most folks who participate here have a very high standard for "good enough" and recommendations are geared to that later standard.

Since budget is not a consideration, but speed is I suggest:
- buy several of the recommended high quality S-VHS VCRs that have been refurbished by a reputable technician
- buy an equal number of the recommended DVD recorders.
- buy an equal number of TBCs.
- buy an equal number of proc amps (if not included in the TBC's you buy)
- capture to DVD-R at the 1 or 2-hour record rate.

The DVD-R can be viewed directly, copied, or ripped for basic editing and uploading. The quality will for the most part be close to the same as the VCR playback, except for really video that has a lot of noise in it because lossy video compression has difficulty with noise. The file thus produced is in a highly compressed lossy format so it will not survive significant restoration or color correction.

By the time he buys all that gear his budget will be in the $5000 range, I can do it for him for half of that, I’m pretty sure Lordsmurf is more generous than me and he can probably do it for a lot less.

I read adarc8's post #7 to imply he eventually wants to do this as a business, not just as a hobby effort for family and friends.

Given the historical rise, fall, and performance of such services, and the availability of low cost DIY gear, perhaps it is time for him to document a business case to aid his decision process.

In the analog world, speed kills...quality.

Even back in the days of audio cassettes and before that, reel to reel, audiophiles could tell the difference between a high speed copy and a realtime one. The high speed copy lacked in the high and low end, and had more wow and flutter due to the increased transport speed.

There's a company, The Tape Project that' producing what YouTuber Techmoan calls "The most expensive music format (in the world)" because a single tape, equivalent to a single LP costs $450 and requires modification of high end reel to reel machines. They understand the necessity of realtime mastering to retain quality:

"Q: Are you saying this is better than any other format?

A: We find the sound of 15ips half track analog tape to be distinct from the sound of any other format. Mike Spitz of ATR Services always said, “Nothing sounds like tape.”

Q: How are the tapes made?

A: Our duplication process begins with the actual analog master tape. From that we make analog running masters on one inch two-track format. The one inch tape format transfer results in a extremely low loss of information, which we consider more like 1/2 generation than one full generation. These running masters are copied in real time to a bank of finely tweaked Ampex ATR-100 decks, yielding a “1-1/2 generation” copy. You just aren’t going to get any closer to the original master, short of buying a record label or two."

Now imagine how much more difficult and lossy it would be to speed up a videotape! :eek:

Edit: If you've ever used a high speed copying cassette boombox that was popular in the '80's and made a copy of your cassette, you'd know how badly speed kills...quality. Granted the transports in these were terrible, but even a realtime copy was noticeably better than the highspeed one.

When you go to get some work done on your teeth do you want a message therapist to work on your cavities with cheap pliers and Dremmel bits? and most importantly do you want him to get it done as fast as he can? The point is if you don't understand how VCR works, and how video should be captured and what hardware is required for such a complicated job why do you want to get involved in such business? You can do your own tapes if you want to but why do you want to screw up people's valuable memories with bad hardware and little to no knowledge?

Don't get me wrong 10 years ago I had no idea about how video capturing work besides what the average joe knows and the only reason I had to learn it is not because I want a business, but because the so called "professionals" who use $69 VHS/DVD combo from Walmart in their basement and call it a business screwed up our family tapes that I had to do all over again which one of them was chewed up by his cheap VCR, You probably know by now why I'm pissed.

Thank you for the explanation!

oh so now we are talking on the cost of such machine? I didn't wanted to build such a machine, I just asked and i quote: "Is there such a product that can run the tape very fast?"
The answer I got from you was kind of like "are you dumb??? its not possible, where have you been living these 2 decades??"
All I did was simply ask if kind of machine exist, because as an engineer I cant find a *physical* reason that this kind of machine can not be possible.
luckly dpalomaki answer that question that it is possible but from economic reason this machine does not exist.
You didn't tell me that, you just tried to whack like i am saying some sick impossible physical thing. next time have some faith

The reason is that you don't answer to the point. All i heard is that Elgato is crap and i need some premium 3000$ equipment. so i just asked why? whats exactly is the difference???
and i did got the answer. so I understand :) I just simply ask what is the difference, I wanted to know exactly instead of just saying this youtube is a shit talker, and this elgato device is shit.

A simple look at what make the 2x speed copying of analog video tape like VHS difficult is the mechanics and electro-magnetics of the information recorded on the tape.

While mechanically moving the tape faster is not difficult, we have SP, LP and EP tape speeds already, and getting the linear track (analog) audio would not be difficult, we would just have to digitally frequency shift it down to the normal range from the "chipmunk" sound range. To preserve its nominal 10 kHz frequency response would mean sampling at 48 kHz, no big deal, and playback as if sampled at 24 kHz.

The more difficult item is the video and HiFi audio recorded on the tape. It is read by a spinning head in a helical scan, one frame (two fields) per rotation of the head along a track rotated diagonally across the tape. The physical tape speed sets the track pitch, the RPM of the spinning drum sets the speed of the head over the tape (corresponds to the ips of analog audio tape). At SP the tape speed is about 1.3 ips, the head speed over the tape is more like 222 ips. (Thus the primary driver between SP, LP, and EP recording quality is track width/pitch.)

The video and HiFi sound information on the tape is recorded on tape as modulated RF signals. HiFi sound is FM modulated at 1.3 and 1.7 mHz center frequencies, color difference is AM modulated with a center frequency around 629 kHz, and luma is FM modulated in the range of 5.4 to 7 mHz (for S-VHS, and not counting sidebands).

If you move the tape 2x speed, you need to spin the head 2x faster to capture the frame. Otherwise the head will be reading half of two adjacent tracks. (You can get an idea of this when you do a FFD/REW scan of a tape with a normal VCR.)

Of course then you need to double the bandwidth and center frequencies of everything involved with decoding the stream read off the tape. You would have to digitize your output chroma and luma streams each to a pair of 8-bit 29 mHz sample rate streams (to preserve 4:2:2 color and resolution) and then decode as if 14.5 mHz sample rate to recover the signals. That translates to 464 mbps data stream.

Alternatively you could build a special dual path VCR with a head mechanism that has double the heads, spin it at the normal speed, and have dual processing path electronics read two fields per revolution (ont one) and trust to digitizing electronics to combine the signals and get the frame and field order right. There is probably a design and patent for such a box already out there - just no viable market.

The notes that "Elgato is crap " and similar statements made about other gear means that it does not meet the high standards of most of the participants of this board. Reasons vary and may include reliability, ability to deal with poor signal streams (e.g., weak sync and/or drop outs), ability to accurately digitize a signal, introduction of artifacts, and so on. That the gear survives on the market means that it meets the requirements of some buyers. One pays one's money and takes one's chances.

I just found an old VCR device that have both DVD input and a VHS tape. i remember this machine has the ability to record the vhs tape and save the data in the DVD. if i will do this, and then take the video from the DVD to my PC. how good will be the quality? I mean, if the machine was build and meant to be able to record tapes and save it in DVD then i belive it doing the job pretty good isn't it? so what can go wrong with that?

Old/used gear is an unknown - it might work or it might need overhaul/repair. Plastic parts age and get brittle, rubber parts deteriorate, stretch, etc., lub dries out, and so on. Without testing there is no way to be sure of what you might be buying. Maintenance/repair/parts support for anything more than ~7 or so years old is problematic. Bottom line is buy from trusted sources or be prepared for disappointment.

It may work OK for some tapes. It may struggle with some tapes. A good, clean tape with low noise video on it may copy nicely to the DVD. The result will not be suitable for video restoration/clean-up work. However, it might meet your quality expectations. No one else here can make that decision for you. Only you know how good is "good enough" for you.

It will be a quick and dirty copy to DVD. And it copies in real time - a two hour tape takes 2 hours plus setup time. If you post the make/model someone here may have information on its quality potential. (Or search the site for posts about it.)