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  #1  
08-22-2020, 09:46 PM
ItIsAScience ItIsAScience is offline
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I’ll start by saying that I’m a complete beginner to video capturing. A few days ago I took on the project of digitising all our old family videos from the 90s and 2000s. I’m doing this now since my mum was getting worried that the tapes would degrade. The videos I need to convert were recorded on 16 HI8 90minute tapes by a Canon UC8HiE (which has composite and s-video outputs), 28 MiniDV tapes by a Sony DCR-HC18E (which has DV out and A/V out ports), VHS tapes (although I suspect most of these are copies of the previously mentioned tapes, with the exceptions being the odd VHS tape received from a company such as a wedding recording) and finally some DVDs which I think fall into the same boat as the VHS tapes.

The first thing I did after some light browsing was to buy an Elgato Video Capture device which takes a composite/s-video input and outputs to USB. It comes with simple software that has almost no options and outputs MP4. I’ve been happily capturing the Hi8 tapes for 2 days like this and the quality I thought was good. However, I started noticing that the captured videos were shorter in length than the recordings on the tapes. After investigating I noticed that when the person filming the footage on the tapes moves fast or shakes the camera, the captured video of that section is garbled with an effect that makes it look like the tape is bouncing all over the place inside the camera (Clip1 and Still1 attached). These sections of tape end up being cut short in the capture. I thought the tape was just old at first however the distortion doesn’t appear when watching the tape through the viewing port on the camera or when the camera is hooked up to the TV (Clip 2 attached).

This is what led me to this website as I found a post about a similar problem here. It seems that one of these Panasonic ES-10 DVD recorders used as a pass through between the camera and the capture device solved their problem.I’m willing to spend some money to preserve my family memories in as good quality as possible but not thousands of dollars/pounds as many of the guides and posts I’ve found whilst browsing the website the last few hours have suggested.

So my questions are:
  1. Should I buy a Panasonic ES-10 DVD recorder?
  2. Should I use it as a pass through or should I make DVDs with it straight from the tapes and then use my computers disc drive to make files that can be stored and watched off an external hard drive?
  3. If using as a pass through should I get a different capture device?
  4. Should I use different capture software to avoid the compression of MP4?
  5. Do I need one of these pricey time base correctors that I’ve now read about, will it make a significant difference for the money?
On a separate issue (perhaps I’m being too ambitious in the number of questions I can reasonably ask in one post), some of my tapes have horizontal lines running through them (Still3 attached). However, these lines appear on the tape itself even when watched through the camera viewer. Is there a way to fix this or is this simply damage from the tape being old?

Many thanks in advance for any replies.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Still1.jpg (27.4 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg Still3.jpg (38.9 KB, 8 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Clip1.mp4 (3.67 MB, 9 downloads)
File Type: mp4 Clip2.mp4 (1.22 MB, 6 downloads)
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  #2  
08-23-2020, 01:33 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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DV tapes and DVD's can be transferred to computer without loss as they are already in digital, For analog tapes you may need a better capture card but first get a ES10 as a pass through (not as a capture machine) because you need it anyway and try it with the Elgato and go from there. One more thing, never capture tapes from composite, always use S-Video.

For software try vdub with HuffYUV, It has a learning curve.

The running lines on the tape are called tape drop outs, The camcorder or VCR DOC is trying to fix them by replacing bad scan lines with the good adjacent ones, There is nothing you can do about that unfortunately, They develop by age and they get worse by playing tapes back over and over.
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  #3  
08-23-2020, 07:54 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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That Elgato card is essentially the same performance as a cheap Easycap (terrible), and is part of the problem. A better capture cards is required.

VirtualDub is fairly simple, no really learning curve, especially following the capture guide here. The software that came with the Elgato is also total garbage, and is also why you're having issues. "MP4" is an unknown file type. MP4 is a wrapper, not video format, no idea on actual codec used. But likely really compressed, likely H264, likely deinterlaced. And that's a recipe for very low quality capture, lots of image quality problems.

Yes, get the ES10/15, you need some form of TBC in the chain. The ES10/15 is a very minimalist TBC(ish). It is mostly good for the anti-tearing filtering, used with an actual TBC. But it can sometimes suffice as a TBC replacement, though there are fail rates with that sort of (ish) setup. But better than nothing. ES10/15 is passthrough device, don't use it to make DVDs. Workflow = camera > ES10/15 > capture card

People are way too afraid of TBC/VCR/etc costs. Buy it, use it, resell it. Video is a hobby like anything else, there are costs involved. Of all my hobbies, video has always been the cheapest. For most hobbies, I can't resell supplies. (When time required for the project is unattractive, all the learning involved, unknowns in terms of exact hardware that will be needed, that's when outsourcing the project works best.)

Before even attempting to figure out specific problems, good hardware needs to be in use.

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  #4  
08-23-2020, 09:00 PM
ItIsAScience ItIsAScience is offline
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Thanks a lot to both of you for your answers. I've ordered the ES10 and I'll order a new capture card and try to return the Elgato. I have however tried the Elgato with the VDub software but I only get audio. I'm not too worried about solving that though since I'll be switching anyway. I have an old xp machine that is in very good shape and never really had anything installed on it, after reading around more on some other threads it seems that an All-in-Wonder card for XP is the best option.

Three More Questions:
  1. Is there a capture card that would work with Windows 10 to a similar quality to avoid the hassle of using an old machine?
  2. Should I get a Hi8 camera with line TBC to run the tapes instead of the one I have? I've seen claims in both directions as to whether it makes much difference for Hi8.
  3. Since I now have a couple weeks before my equipment arrives, it'd be good to make a start on the miniDV tapes. Am I right in thinking that using a DV out to FireWire port on my xp provides a digital signal that I can just save? (As opposed to the A/V out which I think is analog)

And again, thanks in advance.
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  #5  
08-23-2020, 11:55 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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DV is transferred using WinDV or ScenalyzerLive via firewire port.
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  #6  
08-28-2020, 12:59 AM
ItIsAScience ItIsAScience is offline
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After beginning to feel more and more awash with information, I decided to go for the premium forum membership since I think I'm gonna need a little more hand holding on this project of mine.

My current situation remains the same as in my previous reply in this thread. Any answers to the questions would be very much appreciated.
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  #7  
08-31-2020, 10:43 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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In terms of camera, specfically Digital8 cameras, my main question is always whether the Video8/Hi8 analog output is being converted to DV on output.

From what I've read, some convert, some do not. Digital8 was a somewhat niche format, another Sony attempt to circumvent mainline formats (DV, in this case). So I've not seen or used a wide array of D8 cameras, as I have with other formats.

I generally prefer Hi8 cameras anyway, for V8/Hi8 formats, as the cameras tend to be more stable. By that, I mean the D8 tends to cut seconds of intro/outro footage, and the TBC has to "kick in" with a visible glitch in playback. These also tend to track differently, and I sometimes think the tracking range is narrow like is the case with VHS on D-VHS decks (turned to SP only, narrow tracking).

Just some observations from the D8 cameras I've used.

The most ideal cards for Win10 are ATI 600 USB clones, certain Pinnacle USB.

Consumer DV cameras had somewhat lousy optics, and the "720x480" is just the palette, not the actual resolve. You're often hard-pressed to tell if a consumer DV camera capture is from analog or digital transfer. In fact, due to frame loss via the DV method (not dropped frames, but stream truncation), analog capture can be preferred at times. I won't fault either method, be it digital transfer or analog capture.

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  #8  
09-01-2020, 04:46 AM
ItIsAScience ItIsAScience is offline
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When you say certain Pinnacle USB, are you referring to a Dazzle? As for the ATI 600 USB clones, would they work with PAL tapes? Also what about hauppauge and canopus devices that I've heard about? Finally, is the enforced h.264 compression of my current Elgato significantly worse than other compressions such as mpeg2?
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  #9  
09-01-2020, 04:53 AM
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No, not Dazzle, Dazzle is lousy.

Yes, PAL works with the ATI 600 USB and clones. Only the ATI 600 USB tuner was NTSC only, and in 2020 the tuner doesn't work anyway.

Most Hauppauge are not good, and there are lots of variations to cards, must be extremely careful with revisions and chipsets. The better cards are rarer.

Canopus is DV, not suggested. Passasble for PAL (4:2:0), but still not suggested. Terrible for NTSC (4:1:1). The ADVC300 is terrible, really messes with quality of image, NR overly aggressive, does not actually turn off when "off".

H.264 is a terrible capture codec. That's a delivery format, not capture/intermediary. MPEG-2 can be quality, but is hevily dependent on capture card, mostly meaning ATI AIW.

Elgato is lousy, usually unusably so.

You want lossless capture, or very specific cards for certain formats (most of which need older OS like XP).

You also not want HD cards for SD, there are many issues with those poor afterthought features not working well.

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