TBC and card setup that runs on Mac?
 

Hello friends,

I've recently initiated the conversion of my basement sound studio into a digitalization service. This will hopefully become my main income over time, and I aim to do it right and professionally from the start. This far I've invested in two Pana 7500, a Digibeta is inbound, looking around for Hi8 players.

My plan has been to get a decent TCB that takes S-VIDEO, wire the component output through the Digibeta using it as a A/D-C and then take the SDI into a video card.

° Now, first the TBC. Yesterday I phoned one of the Grand Old Guys in this business in the small country I live in. He was kind and frank at the same time. "Unless you get yourself a Snell & Wilcox 24 HD, you're going to end up ripping yourself your hair of while trying to digitize VHS and Hi8". I appreciate his candidness, but I would like to check this statement with you cunning guys. I haven't found any S&W 24 modell with the extension "HD", however the 24D. https://www.bsbroadcast.com/snell-wi...s-tbs-24d.html Is this the TBC to-go-to in order to minimize (however not eliminating, I guess) sync and timing problems?

° Next issue, capture card. I would very much do this on Mac, since that's what I've been using since my father brought one home in 1987. Would this just be stupid, risking missing out a bunch of PC-only software. I would like the card to be able to save the video in both consumer formats like mp4/h264, but as importantly also professional formats like Apple Prores or some of the pro MPEG ones since I'll be aiming at both B2C and B2B.

°Also the 4444 or 4:4:2 issue. I believe all pro customers will ask for 4444 sampling for Beta SX/SP-digitalization. However, would the S&W 24 D's sampling and processing in "only" 4:2:2 before outputing the signal to the analogue outputs again make 4444 sampling meaningless?

°Finally, are there any decent TBC:s that can output SDI? I mean, while already having converted an analogue input for digital processing, why only offer the option of component output?

Thanks in advance for any input

The AG7500 is SP only, so you may want some other VCRs for that. Also be aware that the TBC on those is an optional add-in, so they're not guaranteed to have it.

It looks like the S&W 24D model has SDI out judging by your link? I can't speak of how well they work though, but I think there may have been someone on these forums that have played around with them, same with SDI capture on MacOS.

4:2:2 is generally fine for VHS and other formats with a similar approach to color encoding like 8mm, U-matic and betamax (betacam is different). For VHS the color signal is crunched down between a 5th and 7th of the original analog broadcast SD bandwidth (depending on TV standard). Even hi-band u-matic crunched it down by more than a third. Given that the color resolution is so low 4:2:2, aka half horizontal resolution is not really an issue, 4:4:4 would be overkill. On analog betacam tapes the color resolution is much higher due to how the format works so there 4:4:4 may have a use.

This isn't a setup that I'd attempt whatsoever.

Trying SDI, 4:4:4, etc -- you're trying to overdo quality. And ironically, you'll underdo quality as a result.

This is the ideal analog workflow = VCR/camera > TBC > capture card
Not just any devices, but specific models.

- AG7500 not a good unit.
- Snell & Willcox are surely fine tools, just not optimal for this task. It's broadcaster gear, consumer formats are not a broadcast format.
- Some folks like SDI for VHS (extreme minority, very few users), but it creates a closed-loop system (integrated capture+TBC) that can be a problem for consumer formats like VHS or Hi8. Again, "TBC > capture", meaning separate items.

False. :rolleyes:

For a business you need a variation of Panasonic and JVC S-VHS with line TBC, Avoid Hi8 players, get Hi8 camcorders with line TBC and S-Video out.

You are approaching this the wrong way and your friend is right to a certain extent, First you don't need a digibeta deck for just digitizing unless you need to capture actual Betacam tapes, All what you need is a S-Video/Component to SDI digitizer to be used as a capture device not as an external TBC.

A lot of people used these devices for just TBC and they got terrible results because they are not designed to work that way, They are built in TBC+Frame synchronizer(stabilizer)+serializer(SDI), if used as an external TBC only by using the analog outputs (which by the way are designed for an external monitor only that doesn't need a stable signal not for capturing) you throw away the stabilization part of it, So get yourself a device or a PCIe card or even a full rack mount one and use it fully from the analog input to SDI output, it saves you a lot of wiring, external TBC's, capture cards...

Don't even think about Mac when it comes to this stuff, PC Win 7, period.

Yes 4:4:4 sampling is meaningless for SD, and 4444 is even more meaningless.

Yes check my above response and your friend's suggestion but for dizitizing not external TBC (that's why I said your friend is right to a certain extent).

And finally for SDI to computer, there are SDI-USB3 adapters which are expensive, but SDI PCIe cards are dirt cheap.

Thank you all very much for your kind help and answers. I just bought a Premium subscription - totally worth the help I've been getting so far and for sure useful futurewhise.

OK, Windows it is. What about a DeckLink Duo 2 Mini? I would like to be able to run at least 2 captures simultaniously and this one does four.

The reason I would be using a Digibeta for S-video to SDI-conversion is because I've got one. I've also got a Sony DV-player with build in TBC and s-video input. What about the TBC:s in these machines: are they line or frame based? But regarding your comment, it doesn't seem like a good idea anyway. So what do you suggest I throw in between the S-video output and the capture card SDI input?

It’s interesting to read that Hi8-camcorders would be superior to dedicated players. A good thing though since I can get working 5 second hand Hi8 camcorders for the price of one secon hand (pro) player. Looking around at competitor’s websites, many of them claim that not using dedicated players is amateurish and not serious.

About the Pana 7500 and 7510’s that I mentioned: they’re mostly eye candy in my studio to impress the clients. I’ve also got a JVC HR-S5800EH that plays my family’s old VHS tapes really well. Haven’t been able to find much about it online, like if it has any built in TBC and wether it’s a line or frame type?

Thanks. :)

Simultaneous capturing rarely works as well as you think.

Line, maybe field (multi line).
I'm not aware of any VCR (VTR,VCP) ever having a frame TBC.

This always amuses me. Most people think the term "Pro" in the name makes it professional, they're gullible to marketing. Inversely, some think lack of the term "Pro" means it's not. But professionals determine what gear is used professionally, not companies. Yes, they generally agree (the companies provide products that pros demand/want), but it's not always the case. Sometimes "amateur" stuff is better than the "pro" stuff. For example, photography has a lot of "pro" accessories that are bested by simple household items. The actual professionals are not idiots, and not wasting their money on that "pro" crap. And yet the "pro" item sells to the wanna-be professionals.

Big and bulky, ie something that looks ancient, can also have the opposite effect.

It does not. It'd be obvious (in the menu, in the manual) if it did.

To expend on what LS said and make your subscription worth I'm adding more infos:

- You can run two captures at the same time but you risk dropping frames, You can have two PC's running two VCR's.

- The reason why a betacam deck won't do you any good is because it doesn't have frame TBC, so you would be forced to convert the SDI out to analog again to use a consumer TBC, But for Betacam tapes it should work fine without anything in the chain, just hookup the SDI cable from the the deck to Decklink duo on the desktop.

- When it comes to playing back tapes with extracting the signal on tape in mind, the term pro player no longer applies, Pro players had editing functions and playback features that is needed for a broadcast studio production, none of that is needed when it comes to playing back tapes, as a matter fact all processing should be turned off except (TBC/DNR) during capturing, All what's needed from the player is to have line TBC and Y/C out (S-Video).

- Sony DV player is only good for transferring DV/miniDV tapes.

- For analog tapes you can either go S-Video -> frame TBC -> Capture card (USB or PCI) -> PC, Lordsmurf has all this gear for sale.
Or: S-Video -> S&W digitizer -> Decklink Duo -> PC, It's your call, but if you can find a cheap S&W and a Decklink PCI card you can have both workflows like I do on two computers.

Regarding Hi-8 decks. The reason camcorders are recommended is that they are much newer and more readily available vs. the home VCRs. That and the newer Sony camcorders have built-in TBC/DNR circuits. Hi-8 VCRs are fairly uncommon since it was only really Sony that made them in the early-90s and the few that are out there pretty much need all the surface mount capacitors replaced.

Sony's replacement for the dedicated Hi-8 decks was their "Video Walkman" series, which are literally the guts of a Sony HandyCam minus the camera. They have the same TBC/DNR system as the camcorders along with the same I/O. The only thing they can't handle are PCM digital audio tracks, which you aren't going to encounter on a home user's tapes. Only Sony's early to mid-90s professional Hi-8 cameras (the ones targeted to actual pros) could record PCM audio tracks.

@Runrunsparrow, to expand on the above...

Keep in mind, this is what's known as a "closed loop" type of system. Once the signal is ingested, whatever happens, happens. There is no option for further signal processing outside the ingest device.

So your ingest source MUST be high quality (which most consumer formats are not). It's not too different from high-end ($1k+ new) JVC S-VHS>DVD decks, where the intention of those was to concurrently dub VHS+DVD from camera source, or (attempt to) convert VHS/S-VHS masters (ie, not made on VCRs, but cameras) to DVD. Now, I have some S-VHS SP tapes, off-air recording of cartoons (about 800 tapes!), where I use this. There is a fail rate, because it is just VHS. But I can chew through most of them just fine.

Hi8 is usually visually good, but it likes to drop frames even more than VHS. The output isn't clocked consistently.

Realize that the external TBCs (from Cypress, DataVideo, as intemded for consumer sources) are locked to 4:2:2. So colorspace can be a BetacamSP consideration.

I would never rely solely on a closed-loop setup. But these have advantages (usually convenience more than quality), and have a place in a conversion studio (large or small).

BetacamSP should have better timing and tolerances, both because of the tape itself, recording deck/camera quality, and simply the format itself. So closed-loop processing surely works on it. My interaction with the format has been minor over the years, but always a quality one.

In other words, you're not going to find a single solution for all sources.

This is a really, really good post. I need to use this in the Hi8 guides I'm working on. :)

Iy just struck me that I have a Panasonic WJ-MX12 mixer that came with the recorders that I bought. That one must have some kind of stabilizer/frame store built into it, in order to handle two sources that are not synced. Perhaps it could be of some use as a TBC in between the VCR and capture card?

Mixers generally have weak TBC, if any at all. It can work on non-consumers sources (as that's what it was designed for), but VHS and Hi8/Video8 are far less likely.

Since you already have it, you can surely try it.

They do have a TBC/Frame synchronizer to be able to do effects between multiple video sources (2 in the case of this one). The manual shows VHS/S-VHS VTRs in the setup example connected directly, so I guess it's at least built to handle some instability. You may have to play around with the genlock/sync options on it. It is pretty old (at least as old as 1992, maybe older), so depending on how much it was used, you could encounter issues with aging capacitors and other electronic components.

I have also seen some talk about some of these older mixers maybe using 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, though the specs don't mention anything about it.

I have a WJ-AVE5 (around the same Age I think) and a newer AVE55 here, at first glance when I tested them they seemed like they were capable of a bit (the latter seemed to stabilize a tad better horizontally, but it has some capacitor issues), certainly way better than direct to capture card. Though, I haven't really gotten around to torture testing them on very bad tapes. If they have some use that would be nice, as there are a lot of them floating around n the used market. They seem to have found a niche with people them using them for cirtuit bending (aka horribly breaking them) to create weird video effects

1992? 4:1:1?
Ugh. No.

A little trial and error with what you’ve got is a good for learning what you need …

Any of my two players (Pana 7500 & JVC HR-S5800EH directly into my Black M Intensity shuttle USB3 (Mac) made about 10 seconds till the first dropout.

But JVC through MX12 into Intenso: chugged trough 95 minutes of home video from 1987! The only dropout happened when the family video rhapsody ended and the pre recorded tv-show that was on the rest of the tape took over. Not bad for a start scrounging up what I have laying around. And the frame store in the MX12 seems to do a really decent job.

However the image could look better. Most of all there’s some visible flagging at image top coming and going. And some lines look ”dirty” or distrurbed intermitently. And of course there’s that overall VHS crapines that you really want to ged rid of. And that, as I experience it, look worse on the computer screen (even in a small window) compared to the nice and sharp little F&V F3 that I run from the MX12 preview output.

So:

° What should I put in between as a line tbc? Or better try to find a machine with one built in? And even though the MX12 does a decent stabilization job, there ideally would be zero dropouts during a tape transfer.

° Also ideally, I would like the option to adjust some parameters while still in the analogue domain. Like gamma, black and white level or so. Some of the capturing softwares like Empia have a quite nice graphical interface to adjust many of those things, but I suppose these changes are applied after digital conversion and not on the capture card analogue side of the conversion.

° What is there to buy? Is the AVT-8710 for $ 1 200 REALLY the the thing that does the trick? Looks like it was $2 000 of the Wallmart shelf 10 yrs ago, and the outside of it seems very Strait Outa Shenzhen to me. Shouldn’t there be any VCR-DVD combos that actually contain the same circuits, or att least circuits that perform as well?

Pardon me for maybe questioning a bit what you already know and have said, surely from trial and error and lots of reading. It’s not out of disrespect or disbelief of any of you or your answers. It’s to be able for me to learn why certain gear is needed and necessary that I ask these, as they might seem, critical questions. I don’t want to run along and buy gear for several thousands of dollars without knowing exactly why I need to. I am very happy for you support and answers.

"flagging" = tearing, ES10/15 needed on those. Then hand off signal to external TBC, then capture card.

VCR > ES10/15 > TBC > capture

Note that tearing can also be caused by VCR, either a bad model or bad deck.
A line TBC S-VHS model likely correct tearing, and with out ES10/15 side effect (posterization, NR, luma hotness).

The best TBCs have proc amp. And analog domain corrections ideal, follow up with software corrections. Don't make mistakes of thinking everything can be solved in software, because sometimes it cannot.

AVT-8710 was never sold at Walmart -- but B&H, Adorama, Markertek, etc. It is a good TBC, one of the better models, but some are better yet (example = TBC-3000, but only certain modeel generations of 3000, some gens are worse).

Line TBC corrects image, frame TBC correct signals, then only does tape look and act as best as possible for digital ingest. VHS was a chaos format, and you didn't know it was chairs when viewing on CRT TV from VCR. But digital revealed all warts, and you must deal with those to make a quality conversion (or any conversion).

As I often mention, I don't enjoy spending money. But this is my hobby AND (has been) a career. These are the tools I needed, so I bought. Video gear is actually a really cheap hobby or career, compared to others. Tools for photography are more, hobbies like cars or even action figures are much higher costs. Even coin collecting isn't cheap unless you're just after circulated pennies!

I would like to add an edit to my last post: I've now read the first article on this page (which I should have from the beginning, but Google made me stumble directly into the forum part). I will never question the need for a good TBC from now on.

Also, I must say I'm a bit flabbergasted over the helpfulness available in here. I really appreciate the patience you've got with us newbies.

I agree, if this would have been one of my hobbies, like boating, those investments wouldn't look to big. However, I'm trying to set up a small business that I can run from home (because of health issues I can't work in the field anymore). But considering the price level many of the competitors here in Scandinavia have chosen, it will take a very long time to start making money after a €10 000 investment. According to my calculations I would need to have three chains running simultaniously in order to even come close to the fee I could charge as a freelancing photographer and sound engineer. But that's a completely different discussion than the title of this thread :)

By the way, does the Datavideo TBC-3000 have a ProcAmp?

Yes, 3000 has proc amp.

€10k is a bit high. The TBC is always the largest chunk of a workflow, with VCR next (sometimes less than half the cost), and capture cards are cheap now (most are well under $200). Even most of my best VCR>TBC>card A+ gear workflows have sold for under $3k shipped. A setup with multiple decks is about $5k. You'll find that some of those "competitors" are just noise, not competing on quality. They'll overwork themselves AND for a minimum wage, by charging unrealistic cheap prices. Eventually, they'll burn out, the operation closes.

Did you ever read this?: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm

Yes yes on Hi8 cameras vs. decks. I've digitized several hundred Hi8 masters from a documentary videographer from the 1991-98 timeframe with TRV740 or TRV85 cameras. Some tapes were encoded with PCM audio that I was forced to use an EV-S7000 to digitize, a deck known to have chroma issues. The difference between the two was enough that I captured the video with the camera, then the audio with the deck, and synched them together in editing.

I can attest that Hi8 is a very dropout-heavy format even on tapes recorded from an ENG style camera on Maxell BQ tapes ("Broadcast Quality"). A frame sync or better yet a frame TBC is required, not suggested.

Regarding BetaSP. At work a dub station was set up (not by me) with a custom-built PC and a BlackMagic UltraStudio Mini. I captured BetaSP via Component (just straight from the deck...don't recall the model number off-hand), and didn't have dropped frames, etc., but YMMV. I'm not a fan of BM gear either, but I didn't buy it.

A lot of people freak out when they hear the word BlackMagic, Digital SDI cards are not capture cards they just route the AVI digital stream from point A to point B such as SDI-USB3, SDI-PCIe, SDI-ExpressCard.

Analog capture cards on the other hand range from really bad to acceptable usually PCIe being on the acceptable side and USB analog devices are on the bad side (such as the intensity shuttle), But they all work well in the presence of a frame TBC. I don't own a BM analog capture card just based on what I read on the forums but if I have to choose between a BM analog capture card and an easycrap I will go for BM before I even blink my eye.

A number of the BetaSP decks contain a built-in TBC (which was possibly full-frame) so maybe that was what was used in your case, which would probably be nice and stable and avoid frame drops and such even with the blackmagic cards. What they can't handle is composite or s-video directly from a VCR, they seem to be set up in a manner that just blacks out frames if they're not perfectly in time for whatever reason.

I use a blackmagic card myself to capture from the HDMI output of a DVR, and the card itself doesn't drop any frames when doing that (though the DVR, or for that matter a TBC can still decide do drop frames).

Is the Datavideo 3000's proc amp really that useful?

Controls
Brightness +/-10%
Contrast +/-3dB
Color +/-3dBp

From where I come one would want separate black and white levels, hue/white balance. Suggestion on a good proc amp to throw in between?

I've now got my old HP Pavilion going after 5 yrs of rest. I was thinking it could do for SD capture. Used to have an SSD disk in it for saving down HD in VirtualDub, but that shouldn't be necessary in this case.

So I should go look for an All In Wonder PCI on the second hand market? What model? And would it require me to rollback to Windows 7 (right now the HP is on Windows 10).

Thank you in advance guys ��

if you are determined to roll back to win 7 - then you need one of the very latest PCIe cards from ATI ( around the time they were bought by AMD in 2006 for 5 billion) - the X600 below in post 7 is one success story to investigate :-)

see post number 7 below and good luck - it would be great to have more AIW success with Win 7 64 bit machines
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...er-9600xt.html

The last PCIe cards with Theatre 200 chip on them were :
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X600 Pro
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X800 XL
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X1300 ( aka 2006 Edition )
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X1800 XL
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X1900

NB https://www.cnet.com/products/ati-al...256-mb-series/

not sure how many people on the forum have got any more these cards working with Win 7 ??

https://drivers.eu/Video/ATI/All-in-...s%207%2064-bit

John Willis wrote this piece back in Nov 2019 ( I hope he does not mind me pasting it here)

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Historically, video capture buses went ISA then PCI then AGP then USB then PCIe !

XP SP2 was at its prime when using AGP cards, that is its device drivers were the most stable and least problematic. USB2.0 was required for Uncompressed capture speeds but USB 2.0 support was "added on" to XP after the OS was launched and device drivers went through some instability periods, both for the USB Host controllers OHCI and UHCI and the devices that attached to those Host controllers. When Vista and 64 bit system like Vista and Windows 7, Windows 10 came along the device driver models were re-invented and many companies did not update or offer 64 bit versions of their device drivers.

But until the AVI is on the disk.. you still have to play by the rules of engagement dictated by the hardware and operating system that must run the device drivers.. so an optimal system captures Uncompressed AVI on a second hard disk separate from the operating system and running Windows XP SP2

They also chose not to certify or sign many of their driver releases and Microsoft slowly but firmly stopped loading them on later 64 bit systems, choking USB2.0 device driver support for those capture devices off. There are only a very few USB2.0 video capture devices that work on Windows 7 and Windows 10 without issues.

When AGP was dropped by hardware manufacturers for PCIe, the video capture devices were transitioning away from Uncompressed video capture towards hardware MPEG compressed (only) video capture cards. At the same time ATI was in decline and about to be sold to AMD. Also the PCIe spec was very unstable and subject to motherboard maker "interpretation" the BIOS for managing Interrupt lines on the new PCI express bus often "collided" or put too many things on the same Interrupt lines and caused recurrent latency problems for both sound and video capture devices. It was a mess.. the few video capture cards that could do Uncompressed video capture on PCIe during that time are very few and far between, and totally depended upon the grace of the motherboard manufacturer and the stability of their BIOS and pure luck to run without dropped frames.

When AMD finished acquiring ATI towards late 2006, they released the last AGP and PCIe card set, the x800 XL and x800 XT and then quit producing AGP8x cards.

All AMD/ATI made after that were PCIe only, with inherent motherboard compatibility issues. The ATI X1300, X1800 and X1900 were the last of the ATI Theatre 200 capture cards. All AMD cards after that relied on hardware compression chips so uncompressed capture was no longer an optionm, and they had various reported issues with their gain control, or further PCIe and USB issues.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the above may be why capturing uncompressed SD is not advised on computers with post Win XP SP2 operating systems

more really good info below

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post64685

Bear with me since I haven’t touched a Windows machine in years. But to shortlist my options and path ahead look like this?:

° Best way to success is with a AIW card

° AIW only runs on Windows XP, with a few exceptions where computer geniuses have made VirtualDub capture from AIW in Windows 7

° The HP Pavilion from 2011 that I just dug out is a 64 bit machine and therefore to modern to run XP

°So I either
1. Try to get hold of an old PC with Windows XP or …
2. Buy a PCI capture card that runs on Windows 7 or even 10 and that is almost as good as an AWI for capturing S-video. Which one do I buy?

Note that the above are questions, not assertion. I’m very happy to straighten out any misunderstandings.

if you are risk averse, then a solid mid 2000 computer ( Pentium 4 ) like the Dell Dimension 8300 with AGP8x, install Windows XP Home on it - bear in mind that windows XP 32-bit only supports HDD's up to 2TB because MBR format tops out at 2TB, use a different smaller size SATA drive for the C: boot drive ( not SSD because of trim issues)

Get one of the AGP cards from ATI that has the Theatre 200 chipset and install in the above machine

if you want to, you can just hack the registry to turn a Windows XP Home machine to Professional - I really cannot fathom out the reasoning behind using Professional, especially since you want this just to be a dedicated video capture machine DISCONNECTED from the internet, but some people on this forum feel that XP SP2 PRO is the answer, I do not.

Windows XP hack to Pro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71IW...el=AvoidErrors

What does Windows XP PRO give you that you can't do without - lets see ???
1) Dual Processor CPU recognition - can use the resources of two CPUs if installed on the motherboard

Not Needed for Video Capture using ATI cards with a single Pentium 4 CPU machine and 2GB or RAM minimum

2) Remote Desktop - your computer can be controlled from a remote location over the internet or on the LAN

Definately not needed for Video Capture !

3) Remote Software Installation - your OS and software can be upgraded or installed from a remote computer

Definately not needed for Video Capture !

4) Centralized Control - your computer can be maintained by system management tools over a Microsoft Server based network.

Not Needed

5) User Group Control - users can be clustered under groups and rights and privileges can be assigned to groups of users. This allows system administrators ease of control and maintenances of users.

Not needed

6) Roving User Facility - a user can recreate the exact same environment in his System in another System under the same Windows server network. This is like the user carrying the PC settings and environment wherever he works in a network

Not needed

7) File encryption and restrictions - keep files and resources private from another user of the system. One user’s files and folders cannot be viewed by another user. This is achieved by activating local system security policies

Not Needed

8) Application Control - Not only can files can be restricted on a per-user basis, but applications can be restricted, certain applications or programs can be made available only to certain users and access or ability of the user to run or execute certain programs can be blocked.

Not needed

9) Offline File Access And Synchronizing - Certain files available on the network can be made available and usable even after disconnecting from the network on a Windows XP Professional based computer. This feature is called File Synchronization wherein the changes or updations made in the network files are synchronized once the computer is connected back into the network.

Not Needed

10) Easy Localization and Switching - gives its user the ability to change the display and input languages anytime and switching of languages is done on the fly.

Not Needed - but was a major reason to have Windows Professional in Europe, because of this feature !

maybe everyone thinks using XP Professional makes for better Video Capture, but it does not make any difference whatsover, but if you want to change from Home to Pro, just do the registry tweak below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71IW...el=AvoidErrors

Not much of a choice there. "Would you prefer cat turds or dog turds?"

It works well on HD sources. (Actual HD sources, not shoddy SD>HD sources. The BM cards isn't to blame in SD>HD, but it still looks terrible due to the rotten conversion quality of whatever the other device was. Dumb deinterlacing quality, mostly.)

Yes.

The best units were SignVideo, but most/all of those were NTSC.

Most of those unfortunately have NOT aged well in the past decade, I've seen numerous units with all kinds of issues. I've repaired several back into working condition, but you still had to baby it (mostly be excessive gentle and slow with knobs).

I use the TBC-3000 proc amp myself quite often.

XP does not have TRIM, do not use SSD in XP.

I have on in the marketplace. The PCI models are rare, low production, single good model exists. You do not want any random PCI AIW, only the 7200 is good. The wrong AIW will have horrible graphics performance, and video will therefore not work well eithe.r

AIW is XP only.

No, not Win7. AIW is XP only.

All post-XP attempts have been unreliable, including mine. I tried this multiple times in 2012 before giving up, with a few sparse attempts in years since (mostly due to new ideas from new forum members, none of which ever panned out). The closest we ever came was jwillis looking to rewrite drivers himself, but ETA on that is unknown (vaporware?).

[QUOTE=Runrunsparrow;73967]° Best way to success is with a AIW cardIt is a way -- one of the highest quality options that ever existed. But not the only way, others just lack in various areas (mostly in color handling, inability to grab illegal super-black/white values)

This should run XP just fine. I see no reason why it would not.

I do not suggest any IDE systems in 2020. Yuck. At minimum SATA, and with dual-core (for MPEG 15-20mbps capturing option on AIW in MMC). AIW works great at AVI, but it does hybrid MPEG capturing as well that looks excellent for certain uses (like my hobby cartoon tapes).

There is almost no different in Theatre 200 and Theatre 100/Rage, aside from 5% more hardware in the MPEG processing. Some bad cards have Rage/100, but that's it. (I actually consider some 200 cards to be undesirable, mostly certain PCIe.)

Thank you lordsmuef and pccourtney for your extensive replies. I'll try and take the HP to my all-in-one guy on the corner (tobacco-iPhonerepair-computer help) and ask him to install a legit XP. Just a pondering. I was thinking I would use a NAS disk in order to get quick access to the captured material from a hotter processing unit (maybe even a Mac :)). Would my PC on XP 1. even connect to a modern NAS and 2. be able 2 write SD capture to the NAS drive over Ethernet?

what model HP Pavilion is it ?? is it a big desktop machine with 5.25" drive bays at the top ?? if it is then you can have a second XP machine with 5.25" removeable SATA Hard Drive bays, and move the captured SD video from your XP computer to your super fast HP Pavilion 64bit with 8GB ram, that's what I do - probably much better for so many reasons to do it that way anyway, use a simple 2 computer KVM if you want (then you only need 1 Mouse, Keyboard, Monitor) , and you can go from one to the other

NB its always best to do post processing/restoration of uncompressed SD video on a super fast more modern computer

Feel free to own a legit copy of XP, but for the actual install I suggest XP Integral edition. The official XP edition is more than 10-15 yars outdated, while Integrals was last updated in 2020. It contains backports and updated from other Win OS, to give more modern access to HDDs, thumb drives, ACPI, etc.

You cannot capture to the NAS. You need to capture to a dedicated internal SATA drive (not OS drive). Then copy it over to NAS, preferably using 10gbe if possible.

Same here. Removeable SATA on capture systems.

Be careful. Most KVMs mess up capture, cause dropped frames.

Yes, my main system is an i7 from 2015, chews through video quite easily compared to trying it on those old capture boxes. Use a capture box for capture, nothing else (for your own sanity, not because it's not possible).

never had that using our Belkin KVM ( switches computers using simple hotkey sequence and requires no software for installation) , so does not need the OS to work - so no interrupts going on with the Belkin

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belkin-2-...oAAOSw8XRfsmj5

what KVM's have you had trouble with LS, were they USB types ?

anyway, it is all a bit moot, given that old monitors, mice and keyboards are so cheap now, you don't have to bother with KVM unless desk space is in short supply - like mine !

Mine also did not need OS, had no software. The problem is that graphics cards often "sense" when a monitor is not present. Same for USB, both mouse and keyboard. Sometimes when KVM was switched, it detected missing device, and that detection caused dropped frames. I had this problem on multiple systems, multiple ATI cards, multiple monitors/mice/keyboards, going back 15+ years now. So I've always suggested multiple monitors for capturing.

- eek good to know LS - thx !

Is that a known ATI "All In Wonder" Radeon issue that besets the whole family of ATI cards ?

a quick question, is there a fairly simple visual way to view dropped frames whilst capturing in real time ?
maybe a small dedicated XP application in the taskbar at the bottom of the XP screen (not VirtualDub)

or what do you suggest to keep on eye on this and any other dropped frames that may be happening during capture ?

No.

There are visual ways to see dropped frames post-capture, but it's tedious, requires actually watching the video. The biggest tell-tale is audio sync loss.

Watch the dropped frames counters:
- in VirtualDub
- in ATI MMC in version 7.5.x+, 8.x, 9.0.x -- but NOT 9.1.x versions. That's why PCIe cards are not good, cannot be used with MMC, no MPEG capturing is trusted with no counter

This is also why Blackmagic cards are bad. The cards drop frames, but do not report the drops. So even a "good" capture (no black insert frames) is bad due to frame dropping/duping. The BM doesn't always insert black. It's almost random in how is (mis)treats SD video sources, especially VHS.

Yes, DON'T use a KVM on your capture PC. It also took using separate drives for boot and capture for me to not get dropped frames (Windows boot on C, capture to D). The boot drive can be an SSD. It is on my capture system, but my capture drive is SATA.

Boys, you're swell! I'm so thankful for all support this far.

I paid a visit to a PC repair shop today that offered me:

Acer M670G Tower:

Intel Core 2 Duo E7500 2.93 GHz (
4 GB DDR3 ram (8GB option)
320 GB S-ATA drive
Intel HD VGA
DVDRW
1 GB network cars
8 USB 2.0
Seriall port (RS232)
1 x16 PCI-Express
1 x1 PCI-Express
2st PCI

I asked about a way to easily switch SATA drives and they suggested a desktop docking bay. When I asked them how to connect it into the eSATA port of the motherboard, they suggested removing the Wifi module and use its slot for a USB 3.0 card instead. However, considering all the culprits and bottlenecks I've learned about this far, writing to a USB drive of any sort wouldn't appeal to Virtualdub or whichever program I'll use, even to the bandwidth of USB3 would be more than sufficient. So how does a solution for easily removable SATA drives look, that does not go via USB?

All I care about is the motherboard specs. You need 2 PCI minimum (not PCIe/PCI-Express, but plain PCI).

CPU, RAM, etc ... that's all secondary (and mostly determined by the motherboard). 2gb minimum, 4gb is gravy, 8gb does nothing for XP.

ATI AIW is graphics + video, so it's the graphics card. Whatever graphics is onboard isn't used. Whatever is carded inside will be pulled and replaced.

HDD needs be SATA, large (2tb max for XP) for capturing drive, and any size separate OS drive (320gb is fine)

USB3 can be added as PCIe card, USB2 worthless.

XP Integral should be the XP version used in 2020. Feel free to own an official license, but it goes in a drawer with the original XP install discs. Integral is unofficial, but it adds and backports stuff, MS has abandoned the OS while users have not.

Self-building the system isn't too hard once the hardware is acquired. Acquiring hardware is the hardest part. The software setup is more of a challenge yet, but not with the forum here to guide you.