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swm79

03-16-2021 06:11 PM

Recommendations to capture VHS tapes to HDD?

Hi, I want to transfer around 2000 VHSs recorded directly from the TV aerial (PAL).

I have:
- 1 S-VHS deck (JVC HR-S5980AH)
- and 2 VHS-HDD-DVD combo decks (Panasonic DMR-EX98V)

I want to capture the VHSs using a standalone system that doesn't require a computer and that captures the VHSs directly to files so that I can easily archive them in a Synology NAS.

What TBC equipment do you recommend? I've seen the Datavideo TBC-5000 TBC. Would you recommend it?

What standalone system would you recommend to capture the VHSs? I've seen the Datavideo HDR-60 or the blackmagicdesign HyperDeck Studio Mini. Would you recommend them?

What should be the workflow?

As I've around 2000 VHSs would the S-VHS deck or the combo decks deck be sufficient or would I need another additional ones due to tape degradation?

Thanks for the help.

lordsmurf

03-16-2021 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swm79 (Post 75996)

Hi, I want to transfer around 2000 VHSs recorded directly from the TV aerial (PAL).

Lots of tapes! So you'll need to plan this out well, not cut corners with cheap gear (as some % will fail, and with 2K tapes that % = lots of tapes).

Quote:

I have:
- 1 S-VHS deck (JVC HR-S5980AH)

Good low-end unit, but no TBC, so ES10 or ES15 required for passthrough, but...

Quote:

- and 2 VHS-HDD-DVD combo decks (Panasonic DMR-EX98V)

Does this act exactly like the ES10/15? Not just close, like the ES20/25 (bad).
@hodgey, can you confirm?

Quote:

What TBC equipment do you recommend? I've seen the Datavideo TBC-5000 TBC. Would you recommend it?

Not the 5000, no. It's weak on consumer sources, and was designed for pro studio sources. With 2K tapes, you'll have a sizeable fail rate. While more costly, it's actually a cheaper item than TBCs of the prior generation. The 5000 is more like the DVK, and not TBC-1000/etc type TBCs. The are also certain Cypress that are desirable for PAL.

Quote:

I want to capture the VHSs using a standalone system that doesn't require a computer and that captures the VHSs directly to files so that I can easily archive them in a Synology NAS.
What standalone system would you recommend to capture the VHSs? I've seen the Datavideo HDR-60

This looks interesting. You must keep the SD at SD size (720x576), as trying to force it into HD will make a mess. And this seems to be able to do it. 4:2:2 is very interesting, and has 15/30 mbit encoding. It even has I-frame only. Hmmm! Either this evaded my radar, or I've forgotten why I didn't want it. $1950 is a tough pill for just a capture card, but I may do this myself.

Quote:

or the blackmagicdesign HyperDeck Studio Mini. Would you recommend them?

No.

Quote:

What should be the workflow?

With the non-TBC VCR:
VCR > ES10/15 (or HDD equivalent) for line TBC passthrough > frame TBC > capture card/box

Quote:

As I've around 2000 VHSs would the S-VHS deck or the combo decks deck be sufficient or would I need another additional ones due to tape degradation?

There are much better decks. That would also remove the need for ES10/15, which has quality-harming attributes (and yet, worse than NOT using it, when the VCR has no TBC).

Quote:

Thanks for the help.

Thanks for being a Premium Member, showing your support for this site. :congrats:

swm79

03-17-2021 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 75999)

Lots of tapes! So you'll need to plan this out well, not cut corners with cheap gear (as some % will fail, and with 2K tapes that % = lots of tapes).

Good low-end unit, but no TBC, so ES10 or ES15 required for passthrough, but...

Does this act exactly like the ES10/15? Not just close, like the ES20/25 (bad).
@hodgey, can you confirm?

Not the 5000, no. It's weak on consumer sources, and was designed for pro studio sources. With 2K tapes, you'll have a sizeable fail rate. While more costly, it's actually a cheaper item than TBCs of the prior generation. The 5000 is more like the DVK, and not TBC-1000/etc type TBCs. The are also certain Cypress that are desirable for PAL.

This looks interesting. You must keep the SD at SD size (720x576), as trying to force it into HD will make a mess. And this seems to be able to do it. 4:2:2 is very interesting, and has 15/30 mbit encoding. It even has I-frame only. Hmmm! Either this evaded my radar, or I've forgotten why I didn't want it. $1950 is a tough pill for just a capture card, but I may do this myself.

No.

With the non-TBC VCR:
VCR > ES10/15 (or HDD equivalent) for line TBC passthrough > frame TBC > capture card/box

There are much better decks. That would also remove the need for ES10/15, which has quality-harming attributes (and yet, worse than NOT using it, when the VCR has no TBC).

Thanks for being a Premium Member, showing your support for this site. :congrats:

Thanks lordsmurf for the detailed reply!

I've also a Panasonic deck DMR-E85H (combo HDD & DVD). Would it be equivalent to the ES10 or ES15?

bookemdano

03-17-2021 11:31 PM

The Datavideo HDR-60 only takes an SDI input, so you would still need a device (like the Brighteye 75) to convert the analog video signal to SDI.

lordsmurf

03-18-2021 08:04 AM

There should be some no-harm external SDI converters, but I'm looking into those. Still no computer needed, BrightEye 75 isn't needed.

bookemdano

03-18-2021 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 76022)

There should be some no-harm external SDI converters, but I'm looking into those. Still no computer needed, BrightEye 75 isn't needed.

The BrightEye 75 is a no-harm external SDI converter. Could also use a BrightEye 3 (same as the 75, just lacks the ability to embed audio) and run the audio directly into the HDR-60.

Bogilein

03-18-2021 02:31 PM

I have a DMR-E55 which should be from the same product line as the 2004 DMR-E85. It should have the same good jitter correction as the DMR-ES10 from 2005. But it may be that the noise reduction does not work in passthrough mode. Have unfortunately not yet had the time to test extensively. Here in the forum is always the impression that only the ES10/ES15 are recommended. For example, the jitter correction of the ES15 is not as good as that of the ES10. Disadvantages have all both if it is PAL devices (e.g. brightness clipping) which also depends on your tapes. Also the playing video recorder can already clip the brightness.

Wouldn't a cheaper alternative to the Datavideo HDR-60 be to use one of the last Pioneer DVD recorders LX-60 and record in HQ+ mode (15mbit)? Then read out the hard drive with ISO Buster and convert to MP4 using Hybrid or just keep the mpg files. Qualitatively the difference should not be so big if no postprocessing is desired. Here you could at least cut away the head switching noise with Hybrid. With bad tapes use a Panasonic DMR-ES10 in connection with the Pioneer because of the good jitter correction of the ES10.

For the Datavideo HDR-60 you also need an SDI converter and the files are then in MOV or MXF format.

lordsmurf

03-18-2021 03:11 PM

MXF isn't a bad wrapper, I used it frequently during my studio days. For high-bitrate MPEG, it's good.

The BrightEye 75 does other processing, so no. This is one of the few times I'd probably rather have the basic Y/C > SDI converter from Blackmagic. It's 1/10th the cost of the ED BE-75 box. But I'd first investigate DataVideo, see if those have Y/C>SDI options as well. I didn't always pay attention to what DataVideo made, notably SDI items. That's probably why I overlooked the HDR-60. But on second glance, not bad at all.

latreche34

03-18-2021 03:32 PM

If the intention is capturing to a stand alone hard drive as 4:2:2 interlaced AVI and do the other processing steps in computer later then it's not a bad idea, But if de-interlacing, upscaling, and encoding on the fly to HDD then no.

The BE75 doesn't have video processing other than what every other capture card has such as proc amp, Audio gain (which is a plus for low audio gain tapes or high gain tapes). It also has TBC, IRE level, Comb filter (Composite input) that can be turned off completely, Every function has On/Off switch so I don't see any processing.

bookemdano

03-18-2021 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 76037)

The BrightEye 75 does other processing, so no. This is one of the few times I'd probably rather have the basic Y/C > SDI converter from Blackmagic. It's 1/10th the cost of the ED BE-75 box. But I'd first investigate DataVideo, see if those have Y/C>SDI options as well. I didn't always pay attention to what DataVideo made, notably SDI items. That's probably why I overlooked the HDR-60. But on second glance, not bad at all.

I guess you're referring to the TBC/frame sync on the BrightEye box, or the additional proc amp controls? The TBC is easily switched off and AFAIK the proc amp controls stay in unity as long as you don't mess with them.

Sure, list price of the BrightEye stuff is astronomical but it does show up used on ebay from time to time for $100-200. I picked up a BE3 for $150 and a BE75 for $200 not too long ago, so in the same range as the Blackmagic.

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other (I've never used the BM Mini Converter to compare)... just that the BE boxes are definitely viable options.

Edit: Also looked into the Datavideo box--it's the DAC-7. Unfortunately discontinued and fairly rare on ebay so haven't had a chance to play with one, but I'd guess it's good too.

latreche34

03-18-2021 11:40 PM

According to the spec, HDR-60 records only MPEG2 I-Frame @ 1.25/50Mbps 4:2:2 720x480 and 720x576, Also it can record MPEG2 Long GOP @ 1.8Mbps 4:2:0 720x480 and 720x576 or 2.15/30/50Mbps 4:2:2 720x480 and 720x576.

lordsmurf

03-19-2021 06:48 AM

720x480/576 MPEG-2 30mbit 4:2:2 should be really, really good, almost like ProRes422 (lossy, but almost lossless). The only thing left to learn is the encode quality.

latreche34

03-19-2021 01:37 PM

SDI device in my opinion should be just 1:1 transfer of the captured files of whatever analog device used before it. it should not do any processing or encoding of the captured files.

lordsmurf

03-19-2021 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 76063)

SDI device in my opinion should be just 1:1 transfer of the captured files of whatever analog device used before it. it should not do any processing or encoding of the captured files.

I agree. But many (most?) do not. So, in effect, just another capture card.

This DataVideo item is a hardware appliance. It's not what I'd consider "an SDI device", but just accepts SDI input (has SDI output as an option). Everything appears to be a BNC, so not clear on all ports on back. I need to read the manual, not done that yet. I need to get some recliner-tablet reading time.

My current main concern is the preview output. But for once, those cheap HDMI converters will be useful (RCA to capture card for preview), if not just outputting to HDMI HDTV set.

It seems to accept 850 EVO, so it's can't be that old, 2015 at oldest. And then the current manual is 2019 revision. So no wonder I missed it. This is the device (mostly) that I wanted to exist 10-15 years ago. $2K is tough pill for capture card, but I see many uses for both SD and HD here. Perhaps times to test (soon, not immediately).

swm79

03-19-2021 07:17 PM

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions.

I'll give a try with the Datavideo HDR-60, recording the video in MXF, using the MPEG2 Long GOP SD 30Mbps 4:2:2 720x576 codec.

Let's see how it goes.

latreche34

03-20-2021 12:03 PM

The question is what are you going to do with the files on the hard drive? If they will end up in the computer for de-interlacing, frame edge work, resizing... then what's the purpose of putting them in the hard drive in the first place?

I see the point of having an extra machine that can ingest the files from say a BE-75 while the computer is doing some other work, But there are alternatives that can do the same thing in lossless and way cheaper, like building a mini PC with SDI interface and a 16TB hard drive with 3" built in LCD display, You can even fit in a BE-75 for a complete capture system from Y/C to the final file on the HDD in an enclosure of a mini-ITX form factor.

You can even put a separate SSD for running the system and hot swappable in-slot HDDs, if one fills up remove it and slide in another one.

lordsmurf

03-20-2021 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 76071)

The question is what are you going to do with the files on the hard drive?

First post:

Quote:

archive them in a Synology NAS

LAN watching fully supports interlaced MPEG files. I have mixed-content LAN here, with 420 and 422 MPEGs, and 420 H264s -- even many ISOs on portable HDD to the player. I don't want to compromise the quality of the archival MPEGs by deinterlacing to merely watch. Each generation of playback hardware does better at deinterlace, usually yadif/bob-based with quick anti-aliasing. I save the QTGMC work for true mandatory-deinterlace, like Youtube.

Quote:

But there are alternatives that can do the same thing in lossless and way cheaper

But it's not a 1:1 alternative, and it's not always about money. In the grand scheme of things, <$5k for the proposed setup is puny. For pro work, or serious hobby, it's just another expense. Such numbers don't phase me, nor the OP. I can equally talk $500 or $5000 setups. While $2k is a bit rich for a SD capture cards, remember that it also does HD. I also have a feeling that it'll appreciate in value when it's no longer made/sold, like TBCs have done. Not a bargain bin broadcast item.

latreche34

03-20-2021 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 76072)

HDR-60 is not 1:1, it's MPEG2. What I suggested is a 1:1 alternative, the files will be AVI 4:2:2 D1 standard. HDR-60 cannot capture analog video, an analog capture device is still required.

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