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  #1  
05-28-2021, 08:22 AM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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I have read a lot Lord Smurf's posts and guides over the last week, am I think I am approaching the level of knowing that I don't know the things I don't know. For instance, I know about S-VHS players with TBC and which models to seek out. I know about the elusive DataVideo TBC-1000 external TBC. I know about the ATI 600 capture device.

I woke up this morning with this question in my head.

Let's assume the following:
1. I never find one of the S-VHS models with TBC on Lord Smurf's list.
2. All my VHS recording were done in a VHS recorder on regular VHS tapes.

All other thing being equal, would there be any difference in output quality between the following:
a. An S-VHS player (non-TBC) with S-Video output
b. A VHS player (non-TBC) with S-Video output (I assume some models had this?)
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  #2  
05-28-2021, 09:35 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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There is no VHS player with S-Video out, Some DVD combo units have S-Video out but I guess it is for DVD only.
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  #3  
05-28-2021, 02:01 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Subject to individual unit variations doe to their history the following generalization are reasonable:

A S-VHS VCR output should be at least equal to and likely better than a VHS VCR output because S-VHS is made to support a higher bandwidth and generally a noise level standard.

However, an abused or worn out high quality model may perform worst than a lightly used, well cared for lesser machine.

As noted above, s-video output is not normally found on a VHS VCR.
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  #4  
05-28-2021, 04:56 PM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
...All other thing being equal, would there be any difference in output quality between the following:
a. An S-VHS player (non-TBC) with S-Video output
b. A VHS player (non-TBC) with S-Video output (I assume some models had this?)
Welcome. Good question.

It seems all S-VHS players carry both composite and S-Video connectors. The S-Video connection obviously allows full resolution of the much higher definition SVHS signal. About 400 horizontal lines vs about 240 lines VHS. No surprise there.

It seems most or all the countless VHS players ever produced - of greatly varying features and quality - carry only a composite (yellow connector) video output. If adding the S-Video facility would have somewhat improved VHS reproduction, that they didnt add it seems strange.


I read the owner's manuals for a JVC S-Video deck. It specifically recommended using the S-Video connector when playing back S-Video tapes to reap the much better luminance detail possible in an S-VHS recording. They could have added: "...and using the S-Video connection will also reap some improvement in detail on standard VHS recordings." They would have been stating the truth (if it is true) and would have been giving potential buyers another reason to purchase the S-VHS deck especially if they owned VHS recordings which they wanted to play at best quality. A no brainer as they say. But they didnt say it. It seems they missed that opportunity. That also seems strange to me.

So at this point I'm undecided about this. I must get around to making my own test.

Last edited by timtape; 05-28-2021 at 05:07 PM.
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  #5  
05-28-2021, 07:49 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Some DVD combo units have S-Video out but I guess it is for DVD only.
Not so, there are many combo units which have S-Video output for the VHS side. Panasonic ES-35, EZ-48, LG 299, Samsung 355, Sanyo 625 are ones I have. The clue is in the S-Video output on the back: in my experience if it says "DVD Exclusive out" you won't get S-video from the VHS side, but otherwise, you will. Pannys have "DVD Priority out" (VHS will still output on the S-Video socket) and others just have "S-Video Out".

I've attached some frame grabs from my EZ-48 and IoData GV-USB2: on the left is the capture from the Composite port, on the right is the capture from the S-Video port. I've zipped 4 different images (the forum doesn't allow large images to be attached).


Attached Files
File Type: zip Thumper.zip (2.17 MB, 24 downloads)
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  #6  
05-28-2021, 07:50 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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I forgot to say I am also mulling over whether to get a S-VHS for playback of standard VHS...
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  #7  
05-28-2021, 08:52 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
Not so, there are many combo units which have S-Video output for the VHS side.
It was somewhat common on dvd-recorder combo units since they had to be able to digitize the video anyhow. (Combos without recorders only have S-Video for DVD, though there's at least one very late model blu-ray/VHS combo deck has hdmi out for all sections.) All the ones I've seen (other than probably the jvc svhs/dvd-recorder combos) are connected via composite to the internal A/D converter though, so the end result depend on the video decoder chip in the deck. There is often also component and on some later ones hdmi out too. It's basically like connecting a standalone dvd-recorder to the composite out on a standard vcr. I think panasonic ones have one of the composite outputs that put out video direct though as demoed while the other outputs go through the internal digitizer as demonstrated by hushpower. Some of the funai recorder combos act more like the non-recorder combos with vcr output only on composite (except when dubbing.)

There are a handful of combo decks that are in fact SVHS decks too, and of course do include proper s-video out. Mostly from JVC but I know there is a Japanese Panasonic as well.

There are also some weirdo vhs decks like the Hi8/VHS combo ones and the Samsung SV-300w multisystem deck that also have a s-video out but as far as I know those are also just composite out from the vcr part sent through (a more primitive in this case) Y/C separation circuit.

I don't know the exact reason why there seems to be no non-SVHS decks without proper S-Video. It could be some standards compliance, cost reduction or some technical reason they were designed like this. Most of the JVC SVHS decks share the main video chips with standard-vhs models and mostly the same mechanism sans a spinning tape stabilizer thingy. Though, with components placed differently not merging Y and C on output. My HR-J658 and HR-S8500 even use the same base pcb, tho the svhs one has a lot of extra stuff on it of course to playback SVHS and the digital stuff, so I'm not sure if there is any techical reason why there couldn't be a S-Video out on a standard deck.
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  #8  
05-28-2021, 09:02 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Hodgey, good stuff, thanks. In your opinion, is it worth investing in an SVHS machine to play normal VHS tapes?
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  #9  
05-28-2021, 09:37 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
...so I'm not sure if there is any technical reason why there couldn't be a S-Video out on a standard deck.
No technical reason, mainly a marketing and cost issues. Consumer gear design is driven by price points and marketing decisions as to how to position step-up models in a product line; i.e., which features each model should add for its additional cost. S-video would add a bit more production cost for the extra jacks and some additional circuitry. Folks who wanted s-video would also want S-VHS for their time-shifting and would have to pay the price.

Having s-video output on a VHS player could eliminate signal recombination in the VCR and signal separation steps in the TV reducing cumulative noise and distortion artifacts.. Worthwhile for capture and restoration processes as well.

It is worth noting that the bandwidth of VHS signals roughly correspond to what can be separated from the composite video signal without using sophisticated (costly) filtering circuits such as comb filters. For the legacy SD TV sets of the 1970 to 1990 there was little advantage gained by adding s-video to VHS output for home viewing. The luma resolution of VHS is about 240 lines, or 3 mHz, which is the low end of the chroma signal space centered at 3.58 mHz.

Would there have been a benefit having s-video - yes but IMHO most home viewers would not have seen it except in side-by-side tests on good monitors.
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  #10  
05-07-2022, 11:42 AM
aabood007 aabood007 is offline
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Hi, I’m looking for the Panasonic DMR-EZ48V on Ebay, my question is will it output from s-video connector on standard VHS playback as well?
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  #11  
05-07-2022, 11:59 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Originally Posted by aabood007 View Post
Hi, Iím looking for the Panasonic DMR-EZ48V on Ebay, my question is will it output from s-video connector on standard VHS playback as well?
Yes, any machine with an S-Video out will output either flavour of tape by the S-Video connector.

That's my experience anyway, I can't see why this would be deliberately hobbled as it would be a pain for the consumer as they'd have to run two separate video outs from the machine too.

It's a fair question though.
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  #12  
05-07-2022, 12:01 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I believe so, though it is output that has gone via the digitizing circuitry in the vcr, which is connected via composite internally as far as I know so it's not "proper" S-Video out like on a SVHS deck. If it's the North american one the digitizer is rather lousy so it's not really worth it. If it's the european/international variant it's better, though it's not really worth spending a ton on over a different vcr + dvd-recorder unless you have some specific reason for it.

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  #13  
05-07-2022, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
Yes, any machine with an S-Video out will output either flavour of tape by the S-Video connector.
This is false. And for this reason...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
which is connected via composite internally ... so it's not "proper" S-Video out like on a SVHS deck.
Those combo DVD recorders are all low-end junk, the VCR almost always outputs a bad signal. Panasonic especially.

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  #14  
05-07-2022, 01:03 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
This is false. And for this reason...

Those combo DVD recorders are all low-end junk, the VCR almost always outputs a bad signal. Panasonic especially.
I can't see how I'm wrong here, the question was will it output video from standard VHS by the S-Video connector. Have I missed something?

I make no claims about quality?
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  #15  
05-07-2022, 01:51 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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One would have to read the owners guide closely to determine whether or not a s-video connector on combo VHS/DVD unit will output a VHS playback. This might require review of the block diagrams in the service manual to be sure given how little technical info is in some user manuals..

I've used a Magnavox DVD & VHS combo unit for example and can confirm that it had separate outputs for DVD and VHS, and no S-VIDEO output from the VHS side. (It was a PITA to use.)

However, the manual of the EZ48V seems to indicate that a VHS tape playback will go to the HDMI, S-VIDEO, and component output s well as the composite output, all be it at your VHS quality. It also has the quasi S-VHS playback capability, with S-VHS playback at less than S-VHS potential quality.

The VHS/DVD combo units were end-of-an-era products for people who wanted one box to play both. Price point market constraints probably argued against them being a great product, and their limited market life argues against finding support these days. If you have one and it works, great, but I would not seek one.
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  #16  
05-07-2022, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
I can't see how I'm wrong here, the question was will it output video from standard VHS by the S-Video connector. Have I missed something?
I make no claims about quality?
You're wrong because it's not s-video. I don't care about the common name attributed to the connector. That gives the false impression that it has s-video. It would be more accurate to say that it has a composite DIN. Not s-video, aka "separated video". It's not separated. It's just a DIN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
However, the manual of the EZ48V seems to indicate that a VHS tape playback will go to the HDMI, S-VIDEO, and component output s well as the composite output, all be it at your VHS quality. It also has the quasi S-VHS playback capability, with S-VHS playback at less than S-VHS potential quality.
Only the DVD is s-video (separated luma and chroma output). The VHS is internally composited before being passed out onto the DIN. VHS was a separated luma/chroma format, so it's not even "VHS quality" due to smashing the video signal into a composited signal of chroma+luma on a single channel. Luma and chroma carried separately on s-video is essentially dual channel. Quality is not decreased, and crosstalk is prevented. Composited video has lower quality, noise from crosstalk between the channels.

The HDMI is the same. Worse, actually, because it usually forces deinterlace with NTSC.

This isn't a unit to seek for VHS. And I think the EZ48V is also one of the recorders that lacks the passthrough TBC(ish), so it's a worthless brick.

BTW, a problem with compositing video is that it can bake in timing errors, making the TBC ineffective. That's a reason you don't see TBCs on low-end VCRs/etc.

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  #17  
05-07-2022, 02:30 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Yes, TBC does not work out of composite, It would need the luma separated for timing and chroma separated for DNR, But I don't think that's the reason why VHS players don't have TBC's, It's manufacturing costs. TBC back in the day was mainly needed for duplicating from another tape and editing, regular VHS recorders were happy recording from a TV tuner and playing back the content on a CRT TV with no problems albeit some noticeable quality degradation, So it was never a problem until people start using it for capturing and all the problems are exposed. Especially with the crappy capture devices that come from China now.

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  #18  
05-07-2022, 02:35 PM
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Yep, it's defiinitely two-fold.
- technical
- costs, aka as cheap possible, but also a profitable as possible

But even if you wanted such a weird frankenstein machine, it really cannot be done.

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05-07-2022, 02:44 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Nope, it would require JVC engineers to get younger again and the factories that made the chips to be back on business.
How long the vhs-decode folks being fiddling with making a TBC for a low budget VCR and still no final product, I do really put my faith in the team, but at the same time I have to be realistic in my expectations.

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  #20  
05-07-2022, 02:49 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You're wrong because it's not s-video. I don't care about the common name attributed to the connector. That gives the false impression that it has s-video. It would be more accurate to say that it has a composite DIN. Not s-video, aka "separated video". It's not separated. It's just a DIN.
It is separated, just not at the stage we want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
Yes, any machine with an S-Video out will output either flavour of tape by the S-Video connector.

That's my experience anyway, I can't see why this would be deliberately hobbled as it would be a pain for the consumer as they'd have to run two separate video outs from the machine too.

It's a fair question though.
As dpalomaki mentioned, it's actually pretty common to find combos that have DVD-exclusive outputs with only composite for a "common"/unified VHS+DVD output -- especially VCR/DVD player rather than recorder combos. At least in North America.
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