New VCR observations, usage, D-VHS vs. S-VHS?
 

I got a new VCR (JVC SR-MV45) from LordSmurf almost two weeks ago and I'm in love. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU LS THIS VCR IS AMAZINGGGGG

It's blows my old D-VHS deck out of the water quality wise!

D-VHS Deck (HM-DH30000U)
Attachment 13704

SR-MV45
Attachment 13705

If you're considering getting a D-VHS deck for standard VHS transfers, don't. You'll have a bad time.

I do have some observations and some questions about this because I'm somewhat new to using JVC's with a *proper* TBC and not some half-ass TBC like the D-VHS deck had.

I had one issue on my D-VHS deck where out of nowhere the image would just start jumping along like crazy, like a weird field order switch or whatever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzoEnAA3EY
I have yet to encounter that issue with the new VCR y̶e̶t̶. :D

EP tracking is hit or miss. This is one of LS's B+ decks (tracks SP and LP fine, EP depends). No fault of anyone. I got some EP tapes that have some shows and doing the manual tracking while capturing is a bit of a pain since it can't really hold it when I rewind to the beginning. It's a bit of a pain but I'll manage :P

I've also noticed that the brightness sometimes goes up slightly and goes back down. It's not an issue of my capture card because I also notice it when I have it hooked up to my CRT. Is this normal?

Had an issue where the VCR crinkled a tape a little :/ Happened when I was fast forwarding through the tape and I guess it went off track then came back on with some damage. It's nothing important but its still weird. I did use it almost nonstop for the first three days though, so that's probably why. I've let it sit for a day or two between transfers now. Hasn't happened since.

One thing I'll miss about using the D-VHS deck, as terrible as it was, it did output a fairly clean signal from the S-Video ports. I think it digitizes the signal before it's sent out, so that's probably why. The non-D-VHS decks just output pure raw-dog analog. Miss seeing 0 or 2 inserted frames a transfer :P But that's perfectly normal because analog video Sucks Poo Poo Kinda™. Other than that, my captures were fine. No dropped frames, just the occasional inserts when the tape hiccups. Everything's in sync. I switched to capturing on my XP machine with huffyuv, so that helps a lot.

On that topic, I'm going to need a frame TBC. I've been looking at the Datavideo MP-6000. It was a DVD recorder but I saw that someone on another side uses it as a TBC, and I found a delisted eBay auction that says that the TBC is just as good as a TBC-1000. Has anyone tried it out as a frame TBC? If so, how's the results? Does it work well? If not I'll just save up for a TBC-1000.

Another TBC-related thing: I'm finally able to use my Panasonic DMR-ES15 for tapes that exhibit the dreaded tearing issue that plagues JVC TBCs. You couldn't turn it off on the D-VHS decks (another reason why you should stay far far far far far away from them for transfer). However, it's so much more noisier because of the noise reduction being locked to the TBC. Kind of a pain to clean it up in post but I'll manage.

Another issue I've experienced with the TBC off+ES15 setup is this line at the top. Feels like ghost-tearing to me (even though I completely made that term up). Is this normal?
Attachment 13706

I'll add on to the thread as I find more stuff. Other than the minor issues I've experienced, I'm in love :hearts:

Glad to read this post, and thanks for sharing samples. :)

I've never liked the D-VHS, not JVC or Mitsubishi or otherwise, and this is why. TBC is not as good (sometimes even a problem), NR not as good, LP/EP rarely plays well.

When VCR heads heat up, from overuse, bad things can happen. The hot heads can cause the thin tape to slightly alter shape, and "eating" can happen. Also remember that B+ is a statement of tracking, alignment, head condition. Head conditions makes alignment trickier (thus ability to track well). So it must be tweaked, to make as best as possible. Misalignment is easier, and too much misalignment can cause bad things to happen. When you FF/REW while playing, it misaligns some. So FF/REW while play + overheated deck = potential for very bad things to happen.

On older tapes, like BASF, a head that is too hot, or too cold, will literally strip oxide off the tape.

The AGC between models, and even decks, differs some. CRT TV can still feel the effects of timing errors, and can throw off the luma gain, it's not 100% immune, just mostly. And it could still be your capture card (what card?). TBC may still smooth that out.

That blue line is a top-of-frame error, not too different from tearing. Just mask it, move on. It's almost never worth filtering, and will never entirely correct anyway.

Tearing on not caused by JVC VCRs, but the tapes. The JVC line TBC simply is not strong enough to correct tearing. Even the Panasonic AG-1980 field TBC often is not, or will on/off the tearing.

eBay is full of idiots that know nothing about VCRs, TBCs, or video whatsoever. The MP-6000 has the latter non-consumer-source TBC-5000/DVK type TBC. It's weak, and chokes on videotapes, especially EP mode VHS and nth gen sources. It's easy to spot -- those units are all blue boxes. The blue box DataVideos have almost nothing in common with the TBC-100/1000/3000/etc. The 5000 type can work fine with perfect SP mastery type sources (not made on home camcorders/VCRs), with a strong line TBC (usually Panasonic, maybe JVC but it's hit-or-miss). But for EP/nth/etc, forget it.

Yep, the NR from the Panasonic ES10/15 isn't ideal. I say this over and over. It's nice to read that somebody else sees it, acknowledges it. It's not slight or faint, but obvious. And contrary to some folks stating it can be "turned off", that is not true -- and I don't care what the manual says (user manuals are often wrong, missing info, etc). The "on" is strong, while "off" is weaker -- but it's still there. The only time that the ES10/15 is suggested is when the net result is better video, aka anti-tearing. Aside from anti-tearing, the ES10/15 really has no place in a quality workflow. It can work as a "poor man's TBC" (strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync), but it's very hit-or-miss (especially without the DVK to make a full TBC'ish), and degrades quality compared to the source.

Inserted frames are still a kind of dropped frame. VirtualDub adds an insert to prevent loss of sync, but the drop happened. When VirtualDub gets overrun, it can both insert and drop, or just gives up and drops.

PM me about TBC options. ;)

Noted. :congrats:

Yikes :eek:

IO-DATA GV-USB2. Been using it since I started transferring tapes with my old Quasar + ES15 combo. Gets the job done. Been using it ever since and it's a good card. Although I'm thinking about switching to a PCI or PCI-E card since I've switched to my XP machine for capture (XP machine doesn't have an AGP slot).

I was never really comfortable cropping/masking off the tearing or other issues on the top. Don't know why. I'll keep that in mind, it's not like people would notice it if they're watching the tape on a CRT because of the overscan :P

Ah

Damn :( So much for the dude being a "professional video editor" :/

Pretty much. I don't really mind the added noise since I always denoise in AviSynth (mitigating it, but not completely removing it), so I'm not too worried about it.

Agreed. Worked fine for my Quasar VCR, but not ideal. I noticed the slightly degraded quality, although last time I compared with my D-VHS deck plugged into it compared to directly to my capture card, I only noticed it when I went back and forth between the two. If I only watched the footage from the ES15, I honestly wouldn't tell if it was direct or not. But that's just me :P I've actually seen some of my friends prefer the ES10/15's TBC compared to the JVC's, but I think they got their VCRs off eBay, so I don't know the condition of them.

True, at least it's not going up like mad, it only goes crazy when the tape isn't tracked. Other than that, 1 every once in a while. Would being offline on my XP machine help? I usually do network file transfer between my XP machine and my main PC.

Will do :congrats:

HDTVs have overscan, too! :wink2:

Oh, he may be a pro video editor. But editing video isn't the same skill as capturing. He may "also do" capturing, but I would suggest not very well. Or more likely, more limited sources, and not well versed in the gear's breaking points.

One of the main issues with ES10/15 is that the color palette is compressed in the NR, posterized, You can't easily, or at all, unring that bell.

Never have a capture system online whatsoever.

In fact, install the Win8 Firewall (nothing to do with Win8, terrible software name!) from Sphinx.
The free version. http://www.sphinx-soft.com/download/W8FC6.5/
Monitor it for activity.
Don't just block network attempts, but entirely disable anything you can, sometimes outright uninstalling PITA software that insists on trying to phone home/out.

BTW: The "Win10 Firewall" works great on Win7/8/10, I use this. But XP needs the "Win8" version.

Another observation that I've noticed. Whenever I run tapes through my ES15 (problematic tapes of course), there's this terrible flicker. This never happened to me when I used my old Quasar on this thing. Is this normal? Sample's attached. This only happens when I use my ES15 with the TBC off. TBC on doesn't have the problem.

I don't see any flicker in the sample.

I'll admit it's a bit hard to tell while it's playing, but when you go frame by frame it's noticeable.

I have observed a bit of flicker on the PAL ES10 on a few occastions on a tape where the top of the video signal was extremely messed up. That was on a very extreme case though.

Found out that the flickering is just a TBC-off issue. :/ I have a better video example attached. What a shame. It gets really bad sometimes. Attachment 13937

Another issue. I have a tape that's physically damaged. I think it has something to do with the control track. It's an EP tape. Sometimes it'll speed up randomly for no reason, sometimes show the blue back but have audio. Really annoying. Is there anything I can do here?
Attachment 13935
Attachment 13938

Another issue. Does the MV45 have issues with heat? There's a tape that has the nasty tearing issue, however it is fixed when I take the lid off the VCR, or when I leave it off for a while, or when it just wants to not tear. It happened on my D-VHS deck as well. I have it right next to my PC but I have plenty of breathing room in the back. Only thing that's on it is my ES15.
Attachment 13936

Forgot to add before the edit time expired:

I've always used NORM for the picture mode. Looks great with the TBC on. TBC off, not so much.

IMO, noise wise (not talking about softness/sharpness), my old Quasar looked better than the MV45 with the TBC off.

Is this normal? This just doesn't look right. Hope LS can chime in.

MV45 TBC off to ES15
Attachment 13941

Quasar VHQ-950 to ES15
Attachment 13942

From the missing horizontal green lines, it appears that the Quasar somehow cleaned up the signal even without a TBC. What I don't like about the Quasar image are the ringing artifacts from sharpening.

Yeah, that's the worst part about the VCR. I prefer the image of the MV45 because of that, however its just all the extra noise when the TBC is off that gets me. Some frames will look alright, then the next frame it'll go haywire. I feel like something's wrong.

From the picture the control track is damaged so the VCR defaults to SP speed and you get the chipmunks.

Figured that. Is there anything I can do to get it to play back normally?

I found the culprit of my TBC-off noise issue.
Get this, having my picture control set to NORM causes the problem. What??? :huh1:

NORM
Attachment 13944

EDIT
Attachment 13945

Ignore the weird change in brightness. Messing around with capture settings at the moment. Focus on the noise.

I guess I'll be changing my picture mode to edit if I need to use my ES15. Anyone know why this happens? Paging LS.

Yeah that's a bit odd, especially the green lines, one would normally expect EDIT to be more noisy as it turns off most of the noise reduction and video post-processing so maybe something's gone screwy with the analog noise reduction?

Does turning video calibration on/off have any impact? And is R3 on or off?

Yes you say it over and over, and yet not once have you ever provided any example of it yourself. Dating all the way back to Videohelp discussions on this topic at least a decade ago. If memory serves right, the posterization myth that is commonly brought up was completely disproved there with specific tests (as well as the totally absurd MPEG2 encoding myth on output). From the sounds of it, I am betting that ENunn is not even aware of the option to turn off the NR because if any traces of it do remain after disabling, then they are barely noticeable.

To say this device has no place in a "quality workflow" is also frankly absurd. Regarding full frame TBC performance, the only dedicated device I would ever recommend is the TBC-1000 which is indeed has very good performance. And yet, in my experience the ES10 still performs better for this purpose. Perhaps I should upload samples sometime. But even if the performance was comparable, the price is certainly not. I bought my TBC-1000 brand new for under $300 AUD and now I see the going price on eBay for up to 2K which is absolutely ridiculous. You would surely know the cost of these units now too. ES10 on the other hand can still be acquired cheap.

Nah, it doesn't. R3 is off.

I don't know if this is posterization but I definitely notice difference between straight to capture card compared to running to the ES15.

VCR Straight to Capture Card
Attachment 13948

VCR to ES15 to Capture Card
Attachment 13949

TBC is on in both cases. Will the average joe notice? Probably not.

I'm aware, I always have it off :P

I've surely shared samples at various times, but it's not curated, since it's posted on user forums. In very recent times, due to some extremely detailed TBC testing, I do have captures that shows various errors of ES10/15, with/without DVK pairing, and compared to actual TBCs. The differences are obvious.

The bigger issue is that I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. Too many posters on various forums are entitled, and demand "proof" of this or that, as if I work for them. No, I'm sharing my findings. Trying to curate and share the data that has resulted in those findings isn't an easy task, especially due to my health issues, which limit my time far more than those who are making these demands on my time. Unpaid, of course. I do want to do this, but it's not a priority. In the 2000s, before my health issues at the start of the 2010s, I did provide way more samples of things, and at more sites (some of which are now gone, so it was a wasted effort in the end, wouldn't you say?)

It's not a myth, and many others have seen this as well -- plus ample other artifacts from ES10/15. Just this week, the issue with unusually high (excessive) frame dupe/insert was pointed out at VH, by another poster.

Quite a few DVD recorders encode MPEG prior to analog output, but the ES10/15 isn't one of them. The blocks are an obvious giveaway on those units. The ES10/15 does, however, heavily filter, so I can see how others may have believed it encoded to MPEG prior to output.

"barely noticeable" = an acknowledgement that it's not turned off. As I've said for years now, "off" = low NR, and "on" = high NR. It's not off, period, ever. How it affects the video depends entirely on the source. Yes, sometimes it's not really an issue. Other times, it's atrocious, and butchers the hell out of the image.

I agree, and I've never stated anything of the sort. It's a near-magical item for removing tearing. The net result is better video. It both harms and corrects the image. But the benefits for tearing far exceed the downsides. However, those downsides is why it should never be used as a so-called "TBC replacement". Some do it, due to budget limits, or due to having just a handful of tapes, and that's fine, I understand. Others with catalogs of tapes are just cheapskates, unwilling to spend even when funds are available, so they butcher video as a result of their skinflintedness.

The TBC-1000 isn't the best TBC. It's a good TBC, one of the best (for consumer analog tape conversion needs), but still far from actual "best". Unfortunately, most of the best TBCs are rarer, such as the 3rd gen TBC-3000, or the early BV10. And even the green AVT-8710 is arguably better in some usage scenarios. As I mentioned on VH, too many users (newbies especially) gravitate towards the TBC-1000 without any real thought, and often knee-jerk buy it when another TBC would have been better (and maybe cheaper).

$300 AUD was less than half MSRP of the TBC-1000, and even for those few years (almost a decade ago) when TBC prices were unusually down, $300 AUD (aka about $150 USD at that time) was insanely low. When exactly, and where exactly, did you buy that?

So what alternative is left? A weak DVK? AVT-8710? I see you still recommend it these days for reasons I don't understand. It is absolute garbage, not only does it introduce freezing and ghosting on even good sources but also completely alters color via proc amp that cannot be disabled. I have owned both the AVT and the Cypress variant and they perform just the same. Perhaps early 2000s models did have a good chip, but I have never seen it myself and if they do exist, they likely go for a considerable sum. Other than that you have pro broadcast TBCs which should never be recommended to any novice period.

It is a quite a shame that ES10, one of the best pieces of hardware for analog capture is entirely dismissed on here as "crippled" when both axes of TBC outperform the majority of options. Maybe one of these days you will finally show evidence of this destructive NR or posterization, but I highly doubt it. It's ironic you recommend JVC VCRs for their line TBC - which does have truly destructive NR that can't be disabled - but yet ES10 is too much somehow.

It's not a matter of entitlement, it is simply that I have seen you make these claims for about 10 years now but never seen you actually back them up with hard evidence. Even when others do the proper testing and show it is not the case. ES10 was extensively tested on German doom9 forum and this would have certainly been a topic of interest if it was such an issue.

It is not that some of the AV-In NR stays on, but rather that some degree of NR is typically inherent to line TBCs in general. Some aspects of the image are indeed altered, namely hiding tape degradation in the form of streaks / comets etc. It is certainly not the kind of NR that a JVC line TBC has which I would absolutely notice, but that is not the case for the ES10.

Well in terms of "budget limits" I think that anyone who is simply looking to stabilize their own collection of home videos would have to be either wealthy or insane to spend thousands of dollars on a full frame TBC these days. Even IF the ES10 did have all the issues you claim, it would still be the infinitely more sensible option.

That is the problem right there however. There are no other good TBCs for a) any reasonable price or b) appropriate for anyone who isn't a video professional.

I bought it from Videoguys Australia in 2012. I remember I had actually ordered the TBC-100 PCI card from them but they sent me the TBC-1000 instead. I did not complain :laugh:

The HM-DH30000U doesn't seem like JVC's "best effort". Its plagued with reliability issues compared to other DVHS decks. I don't have one here so I can't comment on its quality. I do have a SR-VD400US (HM-DH40000U) and its TBC is very different from the SVHS decks and the earlier HM-DH30000U. It can't be turned off, but appears to offer pass-thru capabilities on the VCR's inputs like some DVD recorders do. The whole VCR appears to be based around the LSI DiMeNsion chipset.

The weak DVK chases the ES10/15 to provide frame correction. The DVK alone chokes on consumer tapes, and was designed for studio work (mixed digital+analog camera work). The ES10/15 alone lacks frame corrections, and the ES10/15 output is still often too unstable and signal-noisy for stable quality capturing. This is easy to see with something like BM cards, which still inject black/null frames, even with ES10/15.

You're confusing the black AVT-8710, which has the freezing issues you're describing, and has never been recommended, with the green AVT-8710, which has none of those problems.

Not correct. AVT-8710 proc amp is essentially unity when not altered. Now then, the AVT-8710 and TBC-1000 can both interpret input values differently. Anything that processed video can, and will, do that to some %. But it's the TBC-1000 that has more variations, not the AVT-8710.

AVT is rebadged Cypress, you used the same TBC twice.

Correct, circa 2003-2008. There was a break of 1-2 years, and everything manufactured in the 2010s had flawed chipsets.

It is crippled, due to forced Macrovision detection. Anti-copy is just an artificial video error, and natural errors can look the same. Thus it chokes on "Macrovision" where none exists. There's not a visible on-screen message that says "MACROVISION DETECTED, WEE WAH WEE WAH, THE VIDEO POLICE HAVE BEEN DISPATCHED TO YOUR LOCATION!" No, what happens most often is you get nasty luma errors. This is really easy to see with JVC NTSC S-VHS VCRs, with the blue screen menu turned on. Every single time, the AGC kicks in on the non-true-NTSC menu, and you get this flash as it cycles low to high luma.

The ES10/15 NR is far stronger than the JVC, which is both good and bad. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. When you have tearing, it's awesome, a magic fix. When you source is master VHS without issues, it makes quality worse.

No, it's entitlement. "I demand you prove ___."

Again, I give findings, not raw data, because I don't always have the time to take screen caps and clips. I'm actually using my gear, not sitting around testing it. I'm not one of those people that stares at test patterns all day. I do, however, try to give enough written info so you can recreate the scenarios. And many people have done just that, seen the same issues.

I've yet to see a test that lacked variables. Posterization, for example, varies greatly on sources, from almost imperceptible (unless you're looking for it), to unacceptable artifacts. What I've always seen is people try to use test patterns, retail tapes, etc, and that's neither typical source, nor a useful real-world test.

German Doom9 doesn't use NTSC equipment, where it's easier to see than PAL.

Correct.

The ES10? The DOC isn't really any different than JVC with-TBC models here. Both are fine.

Buy it, use it, resell it.

I think people that spend $1000 for a video game console (with controllers, handful of games) are bonkers. What a complete waste of time and money. But you know what? They buy it. And you know what else? Many people buy games with the same idea: buy it, use/enjoy it, resell it.

Quality video gear is an asset that holds value, and quite a few people understand this. Cars are the same way, and lots of people sold their used cars in 2020-2021 for a profit. I have actions figures on my desk that have no use, other that look pretty, and these have appreciated more than TBCs.

In some scenarios, I agree. Not all, and not even a majority. But some, yes, absolutely. I one-on-one advise folks of this very think frequently, but it's based on their exact needs, not just random generic advice.

I disagree. You bought a TBC-1000, and still have it. You're either a serious hobbyist or a pro. If not, then keeping a TBC-1000 is ridiculous. Sell it, let somebody else have use of it, and get another TBC back into circulation. That person can buy it, use it, then resell it.

Do you still have every car you ever owned parked in your driveway?

Ah, that explains it. The PCI card was cheaper that the TBC-1000. And far cheaper, for a short time, when it was being discontinued, for about half price ($150 USD = half price). B&H didn't have any to clearance out, but a few shady NY dealers did, and I avoided those.

I still have ads somewhere, I saved video gear ads from the late 90s and early 2000s for trivia, I knew I'd want to see those numbers someday.

I agree with this sentiment, but the only issue I have with it is this: the main hurdle to most people (including me) is buying it. If I had $2k in my pocket I'd snatch one up in an instant from you, plus both my kidneys, but alas. If someone made an alternative that that was just as good as a DataVideo or better that doesn't have the ugly side effects the ES15 has at a lower cost *cough* Mike Chi *cough*, I'd snatch it up. Unfortunately I think that market has had its time. I know it's still readily available, but the cost is a hurdle. But you know I'm still gonna buy one once I'm able to ;)

For my case, my tape collection is ever growing, so reselling it isn't on the table for me.

Anyways, do you got an explanation for the weird lines when I have the VCR's TBC off while having the picture set to NORM? It reminds me of RF interference, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because I don't get the issue when I have it on EDIT mode, and with the TBC on, image is nice and clean.

I've found this to not be the case. The hurdle is willingness to part with the funds, due to not understanding valuations of hardware. Too many people still think Walmart VCR pricing from the 1990s is the benchmark for valuations. The same person generally has no problem dropping $$$$ on something that has no ROI (emotional ROI, in terms of converting family memories).

I'm nonstop amazed at the prices of action figures. Browse BBTS: https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/
For example, this week's newest preorder is a 6" action figure based on a 1990s Sega game, for the low-low price of only $125 (plus tax, plus $4 flat shipping). Seriously, WTF? If you followed toy groups on Facebook, or genre forums (example: TFW2005 for Transformers, where I'm a member), you'd see how most people have the entire figure lines. And many get not just one figure, but "one to open, one to keep MIB/MOC" (which I find nuts). We're talking massive spending on action figures.

Stock trading sites are no different. I can afford to grab 25 shares of this, 10 shares of that. But some people have enough cash to get 100 or even 500 shares in a single buy. They're flush with cash.

Yes, I know people that don't even have two nickels to rub together. But I know equally as many, probably more, that have money. I know a school teacher that drives a Corvette. And nearby rednecks have yards full of "toys" (motorcycles, golf carts, tractors, etc) and $50k+ pickup trucks.

Every weekend, I watch the tractor auctions on RFDTV, with a family member (he enjoys it, and I enjoy spending time with him). Those people often own barns full of tractors, on a large piece of property, and it's unfathomable how much money some people must have.

Anyway, I just do not think what you're saying is accurate, at least for the primary demographic that is willing to DIY video.

Not at this time, no.

Can you post a short sample or at least a frame showing the weird lines?

I have a screenshot here and a video example here.

So much to answer here. I will have to split this post up as there is a lot to cover.

Have you personally tried a BM card? The ES10's frame sync is absolutely stable enough for it. Using the analog inputs on BM is not ideal however, the optimal way to capture with BM is via the HDMI method. ES10 > 2nd Gen Panasonic DVR with HDMI out. The BM s/w must also be used as capturing through eg. Virtualdub causes issues.

So about the AVT-8710. Yes I did buy Cypress with the knowledge of it being a rebadged AVT, I wanted to test if they were indeed the same under the hood. The green model is almost unobtainable and as with Datavideo units, the price has also significantly increased. Even the green + black model is selling for at least 1K lately. I have also read reports of issues even with the coveted green model but as I've never owned one, I can't confirm them myself. In any case, I don't trust this TBC in general and certainly not at the new going rate.

Re: the proc amp, I agree that it may not the be the thing at fault here but the point remains - levels and colour are completely mishandled by the units that I've tried. Irrespective of tapes, the adjustments made by the TBC are always definitively wrong. I am not merely judging by eye, the waveforms speak for themselves. Even if freezing / ghosting is not a factor on your AVT, I would be equally concerned about its handling of levels too.

Back to the ES10 -
Yes it does adhere to copy protection but with the HDMI method it is simply bypassed - unless there are MV-based issues / luma errors in the video as you describe. I've personally not dealt with them, I've only captured a small number of retail tapes and my personal ones have never triggered any false MV errors either. I think context is important here too. Most are simply just looking to archive their own footage rather than a library of retail tapes, and I would honestly be surprised if every 2nd home video was triggering such errors. The AIW cards that you typically recommend are also known for their vulnerability to this specific issue, so that may be a factor if you encounter it on a regular basis.

End of the day, it is a difference of spending hundreds vs thousands of dollars for a "what if" scenario. If some tapes are truly so worn out that they make any consumer A/D converter go haywire then they can simply be set aside and left to a professional service to digitize. Much more sensible option than spending an exorbitant amount of money "just in case" on external TBCs that are sold at 5x the price (at least) of what they were brand new.

Side note: Whenever I refer to the ES10 I also refer to the entire line of 1st gen Panasonic DVRs. The TBC is not unique to simply this model, but also belongs to DMR-HS2, DMR-Exx, DMR-EH52 / EH50 / EH60. 1st gen has the strongest performance but 2nd gen is also adequate for decent condition tapes with the benefit of only one A/D conversion in the HDMI workflow.

Are you absolutely certain you have actually turned off the AV-In NR? It is located in Display options, a different menu to the Setup options. If that is indeed the case then please upload a sample of these "ugly side effects" if you can.

No. But that DVR may be doing something as well, similar to a DVK setup. Interesting.

The AVT-8710 isn't perfect. It has a plastic case, no heat sinks on the chips, and no power switch. Yanking power is bad, so use a power strip as the on/off (aka "surge protector", though it's misnomer, it protects nothing). Add heatsinks, if you want, but that usually means you have to alter the case. And the plastic case reflects heat back at the board, and doesn't escape.

I've said this for at least 15 years now. The AVT-8710 can overheat is used too long. Never use it for more than 6 hours, and let it cool down for at least 30 minutes between uses.

AVT-8710 problems are cumulative. Many units now exhibit what I refer to as "attitude problems". The output can be garbled. In the worst cases, then unit refuses to even power on. It takes patience to retry unit startup, with breaks between startups. Then use it for 6 hours. And then I suggest you call it quits for the day, not push it. The mild currently-typical issues just take a few attempts.

I've lost AVT-8710s myself from this. I'd baby the units for years, and then accidentally leave it on overnight. One mistake is all it took.

The DataVideo units behave far worse, far more often. So I have to wonder if you're basing this on a comparative analysis.

That's a worry for anything that processes the signal. TBCs, DVD recorders -- even proc amps. The ES10/15 is no darling, and Panasonic is infamous for screwing with luma and IRE values. Too green, too dark, too wash out, etc.

HDMI does nothing here, and errors will still be created and passed. It's just baked in by the HDMI stage. False positive anti-copy (aka natural error), or actual anti-copy (be it Macrovision or others). The AGC issues are the most common issue, and the hardware in a workflow determines exactly how it presents (often violent, or just obnoxious).

Not all retail tapes have MV specifically.

It's present on all cards. Some cards that "ignore" anti-copy (example, Tevion "clone" ATI 600 USB) still have to content with video errors that actually interfere with the transfer. Other cards (example, AD based Pinnacles) have almost no false positive anti-copy, even ignore some legit anti-copy, and are even resilient to some issues (as the chips were apparently instructed to expect such sources issues) -- but it's still far from infallible, which issues when attempting to go sans-TBC, or even just with a minimalist ES10/15.

I think part of your issue is just not having enough experience with a wide array of tapes. How many tapes have you converted to date?

It has nothing to do with "worn out". That's a newbie misconception. Yes, nth gen does obviously have more issues. But the root cause is signal quality, tape quality, workflow hardware quality (and lack of conflicts). I could dunk a tape in a vat of chicken noodle soup, have it professionally cleaned, and it may look fine. I could also have a physically/exterior perfect-looking tape, and it just refuses to transfer well, because the signal is shit (and yet may "look fine" on a CRT).

It's not "just in case".

And you're still not understanding valuations (coupled with inflation). I can no longer buy a cheeseburger for 49 cents ($0.49), but you don't see me opting to starve rather than pay $1.99 in today's prices. It's not "old tech" (worthless tech), but legacy (still needed, no longer made). Legacy has value. This was true long before TBCs, and f/2.8 (or lower) lenses is a good example of it. There are lens made in decades past that cost way more than MSRP, and nothing comparable new exists. It's not just pros buying those, but hobbyists, and even photo students.

No. The ES10/15 is the only ES that works. The ES20/25 have a so-called "line TBC" that is as weak and pathetic as the Canopus ADVC-300, almost non-existent. ES10, ES15, or bust.

This has been extensively tested on Gleitz forum. All 1st Gen Panasonic DVRs contain the same ADC. ES15 is part of the 2nd gen which has weaker (but still effective) TBC. The ADC has also been tested at the signal level to ensure it adheres to strict specifications, in comparison to most other consumer-grade capture devices which do not.

Jarvis is talking about the PAL models and Lordsmurf is talking about the NTSC models, so there may be some differences.

Lordsmurf skipped answering the question. ;)

In my testing, NTSC Panasonic DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES25 both completely eliminate all Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K black flashes and frame drops/inserts, even with my worst Nth-gen tape or other garbage like tuner static, unrecorded tape, etc.

I never ended up posting my results because all evidence is dismissed/ignored, but since I have nothing better to do at the moment, here's a screenshot. Sound card used as poor man's 2-channel oscilloscope; sufficient for my purpose.

Left channel = direct signal (blank portion of tape)
Right channel = same signal passed through DMR; consistent VSync is added (frame sync)

Attachment 13952

Just a couple previous examples, again, demonstrating that my DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25, and DMR-E20 all function for me as line TBC. (I've never tried the DMR-ES20, but all evidence and experience I've seen does indicate that it's internally different and has nothing we'd call line TBC.)

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e7#post2341969
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-I-hate-DNR%29
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...deo-samples%29

All I can say to that is either:

(a) that you must not have had very varied testing criteria. I found the ES20 and ES25 were both very weak, and often did little to nothing on very basic line timing (wiggle) issues, worse than any JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR, which is the standard. It was a far cry from ES10 or ES15, which is itself stronger than the JVC/Panasonic decks (which is both good and bad).

(b) that there are at least two versions of the ES25. That's also plausible, it happens.

Understand I wish this were not the case. But it is what it is.

Some topics have been discussed already, I don't feel the need to address it again.

Neat! Details? :)

Again, I still don't see what is the issue, That's normal VHS artifacts, it is part of the tape. Different analog workflows never produce identical results pixel by pixel, Only digital sources can achieve that level of consistency.

I know a few models including the ES20 used a LSI DoMiNo system/mpeg chip rather than a panasonic one, see e.g this doc, I don't know if that has something to do with that specific model having been observed to behave differently? They all seem to be using panasonic chips otherwise, including for A/D. There is scant with detail about those ICs though, and the service manuals don't even include the schematics for the digital boards. I've only seen a datasheet for one panasonic video IC, which does note line-TBC stuff, but it has a different name to any of the ones I've seen actually used. The pre-2005/06 models like the E50 seem to be constructed quite differently and has a different menu setup but idk if they used similar chips.

Also not all models were released everywhere, like there is an ES16 that seems to be a Canada-only model that's almost the same as the ES15. I think the ES25 is similar to the ES15, but with HDMI, and may be North-America only. I don't know for certain if they had models that used significantly different hardware with the same name. ES referred to HDD-less models EH to ones with HDDs as far as I know, later they used EZ and EX for models with digital tuners. The second number seems to generally indicate what generation they are from.

As Ive noted before, I've also never seen the ones I've used output anything that wasn't a stable signal, though they do turn off the analog outputs after a few seconds if they think there is nothing being input. This does NOT happen on unrecorded sections of a tape, but it can happen if a tape has been "erased" by recording to it with no signal input (provided the VCR doesn't blue screen on it, and may possibly not happen if the VCR has a TBC active) which isn't very common but I've seen it a few times. Never seen models from other brands that do this so I don't know why Panasonic decided to set them up like this. This isn't an issue if using the HDMI out on a newer model though.

On the PAL Lion king tapes I have the EH57 at least gives constantly fluctuating brightness levels even if connected over HDMI (I think the ES10 does similar but not sure.) Macrovision isn't as common on PAL tapes as NTSC ones though, haven't done a lot of testing on other devices with it though.

Main issue with the PAL ones as noted before and on the German forums is that they tend to clip whites, which can be worked around.

EDIT: ANyway I think it would be better to have this discussion in another thread.

Compare EDIT to NORM. NORM has the artifacts. EDIT doesn't. This doesn't happen when I have the TBC on, only when its off (which I need for some tapes). I've had the same results on every tape with NORM. EDIT is perfectly fine.

Ok then use EDIT, that's what you suppose to use for capturing anyway.

If I knew nothing about the AVT-8710, reading this alone would be enough to discourage me from buying one. And this is supposed to be the good model? Randomly providing garbled output and even refusing to power on? Clearly not a well-engineered piece of hardware. If it was readily available and sold cheap then maybe it would be acceptable to deal with such issues, but as neither is the case then I cannot imagine why anyone continues recommending it.

In comparison, the Datavideo TBC I own provides consistent performance and the unit has never exhibited the kind of behaviour you describe with the AVTs. It does a good job of handling levels and is fairly transparent to the signal. While I can provide comparison samples, I can't prove how stable the unit has been over the years so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes that is unfortunately the case if luma errors / fluctuating brightness are embedded in the signal from the ES10. For the average person looking to digitize their home videos, it might be wiser to check if any of them even exhibit such issues before pre-emptively forking out 1-2K on an external TBC option. Wiser still to simply send those particular tapes to a reputable service to digitize as I mentioned. But I admit, it is a problem and high time to investigate more reasonably priced and more available alternatives.

Sure. Some tapes may just be inherently bad, but more often they have simply been neglected / mishandled. For example, I am certain that some of the more problematic footage I've dealt with is due to my father leaving boxes of VHS-C tapes in the garage for over a decade of hot summers

This has nothing to do with you advising total beginners to needlessly spend thousands of dollars on h/w. There is no guarantee of getting money back on resale either. I have spent more than I'm willing to admit on high end VCRs that I can now only sell "for parts" because nobody local can fix them. Alternatively, I can pay high shipping fees for someone that can and I would still probably sell them at a loss regardless.

End of the day, you just make it seem like your workflow is the only option, even when other viable methods are provided yet you choose not to even acknowledge them. To see that reputable members like msgohan consider themselves dismissed on here is also concerning. You found your ideal setup and that's totally fine, the problem only arises when you act like all other methods are strictly inferior - even when you have never tried them yourself.

There are certainly ways around it. For some tapes, I pass video through a volume controller which is repurposed as a voltage regulator to bring levels back in range. This is due to them being recorded on a tube camera where the levels far exceed spec. The downside is that this method is composite-only but aside from that it works very well, negating the need for a dedicated proc amp. The volume controller is a passive device and thus adds no extra noise to the signal.

This will be my last post in the thread as I agree the discussion is better continued elsewhere.

There's no "clearly" here. TBCs were never intended to last multiple decades, and same goes for VCRs.

For example, the TBC-1000 is no darling, and has had excessive caps issues since 2019. We're all now learning that some units have begun to age as badly as AG-1980P decks. You also need to understand that there is no single TBC-1000, but at least 6 different revisions sharing that model number, which comparable (but not identical) parts.

... for now. While I don't like your false assertions, I do hope that you never see those problems. I just wish you'd understand that not every TBC-1000 is acting the same, and that no amount of babying will spare it from bad caps, because those age regardless of usage, storage, etc. Obviously storing it outside with a lawnmower would hasten issues, but storing it in an office cupboard isn't bulletproof to ensuring longevity.

This can be a problem. Lots of "professional" services are using the same low-end gear that you would, or worse. This is also a main reason people want to DIY, and willing to invest in the good gear (so the project is one-and-done), then resell when done.

Eh. Maybe, maybe not. The typical bad storage more often affects physical condition, not signal condition. Heat can harm tape, and cause timing issues. But more often, that is a source of dirt, dust, mold, which ruins VCRs if not cleaned before running the tapes. I've had to turn down lots of projects where the tapes was too unclean to process, even in our "dirty deck" (VCR used ONLY for processing marginally clean tapes).

There's also no guarantee that a frozen poop bomb from an airplane won't fall on your house, and squash both you and the TBC. Nothing is guaranteed, aside from death and taxes. But there are odds, and odds are good resale value from quality gear is very high. Also, part of the onus is on you. If you drag your feet, and don't complete the project for 5-10 years, well then you'll accept whatever the market valuation is at that time (higher or lower). If you complete it in months or even a year, odds are good that you'll capture that 75% to 126% resale value (slight loss, maybe even slight gain). I've never seen anything entirely bottom out as worthless, when it comes to this specific gear.

That has nothing to do with resale. That's repair.

The basic workflow is required (VCR > TBC > capture device).
- Invest in a good VCR, that's where quality starts (or stops).
- Some form of TBC is required, and the ES10/15 is a line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, not really a TBC at all, very minimally meets the definition of "TBC" in the context, and with multiple issues (not just artifacts, but reliability).
- Obviously a capture card, DVD recorder, capture box, etc. Again, don't go cheap, or you'll get 1990s junk (Canopus ADVC boxes), or cheap Chinese USB or HDMI junk, all of which will butcher the video quality.

I always find it amusing that people think that I suggest my workflow. :D

That entails about 4x decks (at least 1 AG-1980P and 2x JVCs, a DVD recorder, multiple capture cards, multiple TBCs (at least 1 DataVideo and 1 Cypress), audio mixers, two different types of proc amp (1 RGB, 1 YUV), a detailer -- and yes, ES10 or ES15.

No, I'm merely suggesting a basic good workflow. Nothing "fancy" or "pro" by any means. Basic.

Now if you want to cut corners, I'll talk about ES10/15 or better yet ES10/15 paired with DVK/5000. We can discuss other non-suggested capture cards. Same for non-TBC VCRs, and JVC still suggested.

Some "viable" methods are not really viable at all.

Dismissed? No.
Disagree with? Yes, sometimes. But usually not.

Logical fallacy.

I don't need to try every method myself. Just as I also don't need to stick my dick in an electric socket ("try it myself!") to know it won't have a good outcome. There is plenty of extant data that shows what will happen.

Now then, that said, I have tried (or reviewed) about 100 capture cards, maybe 60 DVDs, at least 100 VCRs, almost every single TBC (or TBC-like device) known to exist, in the past 2 decades. So spare me the "you never try it yourself" bit. But I just cannot spend the time to "try" everything due to online trolling daring me to "try it myself" (which, FYI, almost never deviates from the expected outcome, and the problem vectors are easy to recreate).

Our conversation here was slightly off-topic, but then again the post has meandered some from the original post, and everything we've discussed did have topical overlap.

The bottom line is this...

Your main disagreement is simply about price. You want to find cheaper alternatives, and those do exist. That's fine, I make those suggestions as well.

However, you have to understand that cutting corners always reduces overall compatibility, often quality.

Not everybody pinches pennies. Some folks want to invest in a foolproof solution, something that "just works". They don't want to experiment, learn lots about video, and screw around with trial-and-error, in order to see if the cheaper solution will work for them. Their time is more valuable than that. They spend what's needed for the better/best gear, do the transfer work, the resell the gear. Most get back a decent resale % (sometimes even profit), but understand that even at a 50% loss, their DIY is less costly than giving it to a pro service (or a "pro" service that may have given crappy quality). They're able to get an overall excellent return on investment, and have quality converted video they're happy with. I see this all the time.

Overall, video is a cheap hobby, a few grand gets you everything you'll need. For most hobbies, that's just intro costs. So, perspective needed.

In that case, if it doesn't bother you then I am happy to continue the discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean by false assertions. My opinion on the TBC-1000 is based on my own unit's performance, and additionally based on the many examples / testing done by others. This TBC was widely discussed over on VH and from memory the main issue was the VP-299 distribution amp causing a softening of the picture (and perhaps other issues I've forgotten). I am not stating it as a fact that this TBC is perfect no matter the unit, it very well could have some problems across the 6 revisions as you say. But in my experience I am satisfied with it.

Well I did say reputable, though granted the selection can be difficult for someone with little idea on the topic. Research is paramount of course, but this is another discussion.

The main thing I want to talk about - regarding my "low-end gear". If you asked me for a list of it you would find we share much in common. I paid a great deal of attention to your posts when I was starting out circa-2011 and onwards, and many of my purchases were largely based on your recommendation. My current setup therefore is not determined by choice, but by necessity.

I'll just focus on the essentials - line TBC and frame sync. The TBCs found in recommended JVCs and Panasonics consistently choked on my tapes and also had inherent downsides regardless of performance. Namely the JVC's forced DNR and the Panasonic's hard clipping of any levels above spec. I was unsatisfied until I acquired the ES10 which ironed out anything I threw at it without complaint. From that point it became a permanent part of the chain.

In regards to full frame TBC, you already know my thoughts on AVT-8710 and though I never owned the coveted green model, the ones I did own simply butchered the signal. TBC-1000 was indeed a good purchase in my personal experience, however - given that I was not dealing with either MV or false triggers and already having a rock solid frame sync from the ES10 (as proven in this very thread) it became unnecessary. It is always there as a backup however, should any problems arise with false detection.

Not simply price. If we take that out of the discussion altogether, the problem of availability still remains. Whether it is about acquring this special green AVT model, or the ideal revision of the 6 that TBC-1000 has as you say. Anything this rare is problematic as a recommendation as it may simply prove too difficult to find. Aside from the VCRs, everything in my personal capture chain can be found and purchased on the very same day if the current unit broke down.

Even outside of TBCs, good proc amps are also equally hard to acquire. I tried for years to purchase a Signvideo PA-100 with absolutely no luck. People must be holding onto them for dear life because they have largely disappeared. The best I managed was the previous iteration under Vidicraft label, the PRC-100 which is composite-only with no separate toggles for white and black point (but a useful luma meter which I still use occasionally). As mentioned before, I am now simply repurposing a volume controller to lower abnormally high levels - also composite-only but at least it is passive and adds zero noise. Only used for special tapes.

In terms of the ES10 / Panasonic DVRS in general, your main disagreement seems to be about MV-based issues. Posterization being a secondary factor which I still haven't personally seen, and if we really want to test this then it is certainly possible. But soley on the topic of false MV triggers, are they truly so common to immediately warrant the purchase of a full TBC? Many users (including professionals that have frequented this forum) also use the Canopus NX card (not DV) with no other h/w in the chain, as it has comparable (slightly better) line TBC and frame sync to the ones in 2nd Gen Pana DVRs, along with a true proc amp. As I assume this card would also obey copy-protection, then I am simply doubtful about these false triggers being such a recurring issue.

As I’ve said before, context is very important - not everyone is intending to start a capture service transferring all manner of wildly varying tapes from around the world. Most likely they have only a small collection of their own and a minimal, readily available capture chain may be entirely sufficient without hunting down rare and costly hardware.

Over half a year later, VCR still works well. I just got a Cyberpower UPS and it looks like it cleaned a bit of noise up if there was any. however, I am still having issues with picture control NORM with the TBC off. I'm still getting this nasty noise that happens every few seconds. Whenever I have to use my ES15 I have to use EDIT mode but it looks SO bad compared to NORM. Is there a solution?

Screenshot here, video example here.

The ES15 is not causing the issue. I see it on my CRT as well even if it's the only thing hooked up to the output.