Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
09-05-2021, 08:24 PM
TwistedSystem TwistedSystem is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: London
Posts: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi all, I'm looking to convert some family videos on Hi8 tapes to digital format in the best possible lossless quality. I should point out that I'm in the UK, so we're talking about PAL here. I currently have the original camcorder they were filmed on, which is a Canon UC30HiE. This supports S-Video output, so I'm planning to use that, but after much reading here, there and everywhere, I'm a bit confused about what I actually need and what the workflow is. Here's my understanding so far:

Firstly, I'll need a capture card. The recommendations seem to be:
  • Diamond VC500
  • Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2
  • ATI 600 USB (Seems difficult to get in the UK and not sure if this even works with PAL)
Is there anything else I should consider (doesn't have to be USB)?

Secondly, it seems like I need a TBC. I can't find anything to imply the camcorder I have has a TBC, so I'm assuming this is a necessity rather than a nice-to-have (please correct me if I'm wrong). For this I'd be looking to get a DataVideo TBC-3000 (I don't mind spending the money to get it, as I can always sell it afterwards).

Finally it seems like using Windows 10 for this is a bad idea, so I should using Windows XP or Windows 7. Is that right? I would have it writing to a separate hard drive from the one the OS is on. I don't mind if it creates large files, as the aim is here is to create master copies in the highest possible quality.

So now some more general questions:
  1. Is this camcorder I have good enough for this task?
  2. This camcorder records in stereo sound. Although I've heard this is mostly pointless, do I need to do anything specific to capture both audio channels (assuming it was enabled)?
  3. Is there anything I should do/check before I try to capture from these tapes? I'm slightly concerned I'm going to put them in the camcorder and it'll just chew them up like my old VCRs used to...
Please let me know if I'm on the right track or if there's anything else to consider. One final thing that might be worth mentioning, is that they also have some VHS tapes I might want capture as well if this works out (just in-case this influences any hardware decisions).

I would be very grateful for any help with this!

Last edited by TwistedSystem; 09-05-2021 at 08:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
09-05-2021, 10:12 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,786
Thanked 2,496 Times in 2,122 Posts
You're on the right path. Will make longer reply tomorrow, more details.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #3  
09-06-2021, 04:31 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: London - UK
Posts: 568
Thanked 88 Times in 76 Posts
Hi TwistedSystem,

Firstly whereabouts are you in the UK? I run a conversion studio so it might work out more cost-effective for you to get somebody else to do them (appreciate you might want the challenge, I'm only throwing it out there).

I'll go against the grain a touch here, we have both lossless and DV methods for PAL videotape captures and it's not a night-and-day difference like it is with NTSC, sure the lossless captures are technically better but it's not the clear and obvious difference it is with NTSC. We've switched to almost exclusively DV/SDI capture now as for the vast majority of customers they can't tell the difference.

That's a different statement to DV is identical to lossless in preparation for my admonishment but I wouldn't get too hung up on it if you're reading NTSC biased forums but only work with PAL and can only find quality DV gear. There are the Canopus boxes quite easily available in PAL-land (the humble 110 works pretty well) but you will need a PC with FireWire which adds another layer of complexity. You've picked up the right items if you want to press on with lossless though.

I can't speak as to TBCs as we use broadcast rack-mount units, but these are probably outside of your price-point and require careful setting up and they do have their own curiosities, but someone will come along and answer that for you.

Hi8 camcorder stereo is fine, it can be very 'separated due to wide-field capture and often a straight-ahead dead-spot but it's worth capturing, you can always convert it to mono or narrow the field in post-production if it's too irritating.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
09-06-2021, 05:51 AM
servese43 servese43 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 68
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Re TBCs, if you're going down the DVD recorder pseudo-TBC route, DVD recorders such as the ES10, RDR-HXD870 and their variants are quite cheap (often around £30) in the UK based on a quick cursory glance at ebay.co.uk and gumtree.co.uk. I think it's worth getting both an ES10 (strong TBC but agressive NR and clipping of whites) and an RDR-HXD870 (weaker TBC but does not have ES10's aforementioned issues), that way you can switch between them depending on the condition of the particular tape you're transferring. If you just want to get one recorder I'd say get an RDR-HXD870 since you are transferring Hi8 which should work fine with its slightly weaker TBC considering Hi8 is a fair bit more stable than VHS.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
09-06-2021, 06:11 AM
timtape timtape is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 569
Thanked 108 Times in 97 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistedSystem View Post
[*]Is there anything I should do/check before I try to capture from these tapes? I'm slightly concerned I'm going to put them in the camcorder and it'll just chew them up like my old VCRs used to...
This has to be one of the most basic and difficult aspects these days: avoiding permanently damaging irreplaceable recordings just by playing them. Playing an otherwise well preserved tape is usually the most dangerous moment in the tape's life. All the fancy processing equipment in the world is useless if we destroy the fragile tape's contents trying to play it back.

If there is no other avenue I would first thoroughly test the playback unit with unimportant tapes I can afford to be damaged. There are still a few technicians around who may be able to service/repair an 8mm player but they are disappearing. It seems an increasing problem worldwide especially for videotape digitising.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
09-06-2021, 06:21 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: London - UK
Posts: 568
Thanked 88 Times in 76 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
Hi8 which should work fine with its slightly weaker TBC considering Hi8 is a fair bit more stable than VHS.
I find Video8/Hi8 the most stable of the domestic formats. If we paint in the broadest of brush-strokes and make two families of domestic helically-scanned video Hi8 sits on the Video2000/Video8/Hi8 branch of dynamically tracked formats (inherently very stable video) being based on a system more akin to professional C-format in this regard than the statically tracked branch with VHS & Betamax.

I know this will turn into everybody piling to say "You still need a TBC" which is true, but inherently V2000, V8, Hi8 have a great deal more of 'baked-in' signal stability.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
09-06-2021, 07:23 AM
servese43 servese43 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 68
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Exactly. And considering the HXD-870 works well on most decent 1st Gen VHS tapes, you'll definitely be fine. Probably worthwhile to get an ES10 at a later point if you want to transfer VHS as well, as you said you might in the first post.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
09-06-2021, 11:45 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,786
Thanked 2,496 Times in 2,122 Posts
<sigh> another long reply. Here we go... down the rabbit hole...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistedSystem View Post
Hi all, I'm looking to convert some family videos on Hi8 tapes to digital format in the best possible lossless quality. I should point out that I'm in the UK, so we're talking about PAL here. I currently have the original camcorder they were filmed on, which is a Canon UC30HiE. This supports S-Video output, so I'm planning to use that,
Typical project. Assuming tapes are fine (no mold, not oxide shedding, never stored in attic/garage/etc) then a basic conversion to lossless.

Original cameras usually mean nothing, and in fact are often worse. What you really want is a Hi8 camera with line TBC. But Video8/Hi8 doesn't have tracking, alignment data is recorded into the signal tracks, so having the original camera for this format can sometimes be important (difference between good conversion, bad conversion, or even no conversion).

Quote:
I'm a bit confused about what I actually need and what the workflow is. Here's my understanding so far:
A basic workflow is VCR/camera > TBC > capture card
TBC is required, not optional. Again, difference between quality and non-quality (or even not possible to transfer at all).

You can
- try to cheap out (and have nothing but problems),
- or cut corners (have some problems),
- or just get a workflow that will work without bothers AND with quality.

Quote:
Firstly, I'll need a capture card. The recommendations seem to be:
Diamond VC500
Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2
ATI 600 USB (Seems difficult to get in the UK and not sure if this even works with PAL)
VC500, no, too variable, lots of problems. Only get these cards is your enjoy screwing around with capturing (or trying to), rather than actually capturing video. The worst is VC500 AGC issues. Will not work reliably with Win10, or at all.

Live2, no, too variable. Not as bad as VC500, but again you'll have to test and play around, and can't just start capturing. Will not work reliably with Win10, or at all.

ATI 600 USB, yes, works great with PAL, only the useless tuner is NTSC (nobody uses these as tuners in the 2020s). Will not work reliably with Win10, or at all.

If you need a card for Win10, then I'd direct you to certain Pinnacles, at least for now. With Win10 also nuking older hardware, who knows if/when even the Pinnacles may cease functioning. We're already using like the 3rd set of workarounds with the most recent Win10 update version. So do your project quickly, don't upgrade the OS until done, if using Win10.

Quote:
Is there anything else I should consider (doesn't have to be USB)?
It depends on OS.

Quote:
Secondly, it seems like I need a TBC. I can't find anything to imply the camcorder I have has a TBC, so I'm assuming this is a necessity rather than a nice-to-have (please correct me if I'm wrong). For this I'd be looking to get a DataVideo TBC-3000 (I don't mind spending the money to get it, as I can always sell it afterwards).
Correct, TBC required.
But also don't confuse line TBC with frame TBC. Line is in-frame, frame is inter-frame. You need both. The line TBC mostly corrects the image (some frame correction), while the frame corrects the signal (with some visual improvements).

DataVideo makes good TBCs (and bad), but it's merely one option. The TBC-3000 is only good if a 3rd gen unit. The 1st/2nd have issues, especially in the 2020s, and almost always need refurb work. The 1st/2nd can do PAL, but are somewhat bad at it. The TBC-3000 is scarce anyway.

Yes, very wise -- buy it, use it, resell it. It holds value.

Quote:
Finally it seems like using Windows 10 for this is a bad idea, so I should using Windows XP or Windows 7. Is that right? I would have it writing to a separate hard drive from the one the OS is on. I don't mind if it creates large files, as the aim is here is to create master copies in the highest possible quality.
XP/7 best, 7 allows many good USB cards to work well, and XP allows ATI AIW. The ATI AIW require older hardware, including too-old hardware, so you need to choose boards to build such systems wisely. Otherwise it'll be slow, resources issues, and you'll hate capturing.

Quote:
So now some more general questions:
Is this camcorder I have good enough for this task?
This camcorder records in stereo sound. Although I've heard this is mostly pointless, do I need to do anything specific to capture both audio channels (assuming it was enabled)?
Good camera? Not really. You'd have to pair it with ES10/15 (few other options in PAL) to add line TBC, but that will also add issues. DVD recorders are not magic items, not flawless quality, not actual TBCs. You will make it better AND degrade it some (or even a lot).

Stereo on a consumer camcorder is always amusing to me. A low-end mic, in a single location, is considered stereo? Pfft. No. Stereo recordings need some distance between the poles, and you want clean directionality. Consumer camcorders didn't have that. You're really just getting slightly our-of-phase mono with a cheap mic. So don't overly focus on stereo camcorders, if it requires substantial differences in conditions, costs, etc.

Quote:
Is there anything I should do/check before I try to capture from these tapes? I'm slightly concerned I'm going to put them in the camcorder and it'll just chew them up like my old VCRs used to...Please let me know if I'm on the right track or if there's anything else to consider. One final thing that might be worth mentioning, is that they also have some VHS tapes I might want capture as well if this works out (just in-case this influences any hardware decisions).
This is why gear condition matters. Yes, a bad camera can eat tapes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
it might work out more cost-effective for you to get somebody else to do them
Sure, sometimes.
@OP: When considering a service, remember to vet the hardware/gear and software being used. Too many "professional" services are using the low-end stuff that gives bad quality (Easycaps, HDMI cards for SD, OBS, etc), do not use TBCs, etc. So it's actually better to DIY the project, so you know it's done right. Buy the gear, use it, resell it.

Quote:
(appreciate you might want the challenge
The biggest issue is hardware. When quality hardware is being used, then the only real challenge is taking the time to do the project (learn gear, run the tapes).

Quote:
I'll go against the grain a touch here, we have both lossless and DV methods for PAL videotape captures and it's not a night-and-day difference like it is with NTSC, sure the lossless captures are technically better but it's not the clear and obvious difference it is with NTSC. We've switched to almost exclusively DV/SDI capture now as for the vast majority of customers they can't tell the difference.
That's a different statement to DV is identical to lossless in preparation for my admonishment but I wouldn't get too hung up on it if
For PAL, I agree. Always have. 4:2:0 PAL DV compression is a lot like DVD-Video MPEG specs, and for pure conversions it will appease most. Just note than larger viewing will show color and detail loss, like DVD does, with modern HDTVs of now-average 50"+ size screens. And any sort of restoration and editing, now or later, must be lossless. The latter videos made from DV sources will degrade further.

Quote:
you're reading NTSC biased forums
Do those even exist? Maybe Original Trilogy? The main sites are a good 50/50 type mix of PAL and NTSC, with SECAM being the step-child format (along with PAL-M, PAL-N, etc, aka the hybrids).

Quote:
but you will need a PC with FireWire which adds another layer of complexity.
And the irony here is that certain capture cards have the FW>USB bridge, but the capture is better than the DV anyway. There's a lot of bad FW cards on Amazon/eBay, don't work reliably, or at all, and do not provide the sustained speeds properly. The tech has aged badly, taken over by cheap Chinese junk makers that cut too many corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
Re TBCs, if you're going down the DVD recorder pseudo-TBC route, DVD recorders such as the ES10, RDR-HXD870 and their variants are quite cheap (often around £30) in the UK based on a quick cursory glance at ebay.co.uk and gumtree.co.uk. I think it's worth getting both an ES10 (strong TBC but agressive NR and clipping of whites) and an RDR-HXD870 (weaker TBC but does not have ES10's aforementioned issues),
The problem with DVD recorders it they're not TBCs. It's a mere line TBC, non-frame, and can still allow dropped frames, and often does. And then it has other issues like luma (washed out colors, too-bright image), adding artifacts (posterization, aggressive NR, etc), false anti-copy detections, and did I mentioned dropped frames still possible? These have non-TBC frame syncs.

Hi8/Video8 is a drop-happy format (much worse than VHS is), and one of the few cases where I can reliably confuse ES10/15 units.

DVD recorders are sorta-kinda options, extreme cost cutting. It has a fail rate, tapes that will transfer badly, or not at all. Yes, it will work fine for some % of tapes. The way to fortify the line TBC of a a strong DVD recorder is to use a frame TBC (and the weaker DVK is fine, when these are paired into a TBC'ish setup).

This is not much different than variable capture cards. You'll have to test, play/screw around with settings, cross your fingers it works well enough. It's not a simple matter of buying the gear, using it. Such things are for techie video gear hobbyists, and I almost detest doing that stuff at times (really wanting to just use the gear, not play with it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtape View Post
This has to be one of the most basic and difficult aspects these days: avoiding permanently damaging irreplaceable recordings just by playing them. Playing an otherwise well preserved tape is usually the most dangerous moment in the tape's life. All the fancy processing equipment in the world is useless if we destroy the fragile tape's contents trying to play it back.
To add: DO NOT FF/REW FOR NO REASON!

That is usually a stupid myth, to magically "re-pack" a tape, as if it does something special to a tape. What actually happens, unfortunately, is that more tapes get ruined that way. Sometimes tapes are one-and-done, the oxide is marginal quality. You just ruined the best play of that tape by whipping it back and forth in the VCR or camera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
I find Video8/Hi8 the most stable of the domestic formats.
I completely disagree, but it's not what you think. Two part explanation:

(1) Visually speaking, Hi8, but not Video8 (not at all), was probably the best consumer camcorder format. The visual quality still holds up, almost like MiniDV. We shot our family home movies on VHS, VHS-C, and S-VHS-C, and I regret it.

(2) The signal quality of Hi8/Video8 is crap, worse than VHS. It's erratic, temperamental, due to the alignment data being recorded into the signal. Well, guess what? Hi8/Video8 tape grade (like VHS-C) really sucks. With VHS-C, you inferior image AND inferior signal, I hate those tapes. With VHS-C, at least, you can usually "break" (misalign) a VCR to comply. But with Hi8/Video8, you're usually screwed. The tape physically degrades far worse than VHS (NJRoadfan has many great posts here on this), and the signal suffers as a result. Per capita, more Hi8/Video8 fail than any VHS format. So it's really imperative to transfer those while BOTH the original camera is available (in case needed for misalignment*), and due to Sony tape grades sucking. *Note that misalignments are a drift process, so it may have drifted beyond being useful, and nothing will play a tape without serious efforts (and even then, it can be impossible).

Not to scare the OP, but it needs to be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
Exactly. And considering the HXD-870 works well on most decent 1st Gen VHS tapes, you'll definitely be fine. Probably worthwhile to get an ES10 at a later point if you want to transfer VHS as well, as you said you might in the first post.
BTW, 1st gen implies 1st copy, not the master. Even 1 gen down from master confuses weak TBCs. When it comes to DVD recorders, it really needs to be SP mode camera-shot tapes.

The exception here is the ES10 (not really even the ES15), for certain nth gen errors like tearing and in-frame tearing (unstable timebase). Even then, it's a trade-off scenario, net result is better, it's not all better in all regards (some aspects get worse, to make overall better). ES10/15 was originally suggested for its anti-tearing properties, the "poor man's TBC (attempt)" usage didn't really start with almost another decade, after TBCs ceased production (harder to find, price inflation).

DVD recorders as "TBCs" is about price, not quality. Always was. In some scenarios, you can get away with it. In others, not.

Remember that video is overall a cheap hobby (be it continual hobby, or a one-time temp hobby), a few grand gets amazing gear that can later be resold. By comparison, other hobbies are money pits, resale can be iffy. Even a modestly decent dSLR camera costs more (and devalues like a car), a shelf of action figures costs more, even stamp and coin collecting tends to cost more. Perspective. Do the video right, this one time, and then done. Otherwise you'll regret it later, and have it re-done -- and that's very common.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #9  
09-06-2021, 12:58 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: London - UK
Posts: 568
Thanked 88 Times in 76 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

I completely disagree, but it's not what you think. Two part explanation:

(1) Visually speaking, Hi8, but not Video8 (not at all), was probably the best consumer camcorder format. The visual quality still holds up, almost like MiniDV. We shot our family home movies on VHS, VHS-C, and S-VHS-C, and I regret it.

(2) The signal quality of Hi8/Video8 is crap, worse than VHS. It's erratic, temperamental, due to the alignment data being recorded into the signal. Well, guess what? Hi8/Video8 tape grade (like VHS-C) really sucks. With VHS-C, you inferior image AND inferior signal, I hate those tapes. With VHS-C, at least, you can usually "break" (misalign) a VCR to comply. But with Hi8/Video8, you're usually screwed. The tape physically degrades far worse than VHS (NJRoadfan has many great posts here on this), and the signal suffers as a result. Per capita, more Hi8/Video8 fail than any VHS format. So it's really imperative to transfer those while BOTH the original camera is available (in case needed for misalignment*), and due to Sony tape grades sucking. *Note that misalignments are a drift process, so it may have drifted beyond being useful, and nothing will play a tape without serious efforts (and even then, it can be impossible).

Not to scare the OP, but it needs to be said.
Interesting, that's not my experience, but it's interesting to read.

I personally quite like Video8, we've never had any non-trivial issues with it providing the tapes haven't been majorly abused and in PAL at least it's (and this is nothing but personal opinion) more aesthetically pleasing compared to VHS-C. You're right on alignment though, we don't use camcorders but we have an A300 set-aside for tinkering, it's around 1000x easier to adjust P-guides on something you can just take the lid off of and adjust.

I've just checked in the tape-log, out of the 400+ 8mm/Hi8 tapes we've transferred in the last 90 days the most common cassette type was "Sony MP (Metal Particle)" (sorry, we don't record any more detail) and checking the defects nothing especially stands out. If you want a redacted copy of our tape-log please do ask, we record defects in transfer (and the resolution) might be interesting reading as we record the tape type where it is obvious (all formats). I am keenly aware though is one market, one sample source, one climate. I'm too much of an (audio) cassette tape nerd to know that there can be massive differences in tape stock between markets and climates. The 'ME' tapes are quite common over here too, I don't know how many you see stateside?

You're not wrong, it made interesting reading, but it's not what I've personally experienced.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
09-06-2021, 01:51 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 676
Thanked 193 Times in 165 Posts
Code:
Live2, no, too variable. Not as bad as VC500, but again you'll have to test and play around, and can't just start capturing. Will not work reliably with Win10, or at all.
Actually with Windows 10, Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is one of the few cards that works without any problem!

Some captures with Windows 10 here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMs...7I8nu4g/videos
Reply With Quote
  #11  
09-06-2021, 05:38 PM
TwistedSystem TwistedSystem is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: London
Posts: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you to everybody who has replied. There is a lot of information to digest here and I'm glad I asked, because it would have taken me a long time to figure some of this stuff out without your help!

Quote:
Firstly whereabouts are you in the UK? I run a conversion studio so it might work out more cost-effective for you to get somebody else to do them
I'm in London. I certainly have considered using a service, but if I can get the right equipment, I'd really like to have a go at doing this stuff myself (especially if using a service involved me having to send them through the post).

Quote:
Original cameras usually mean nothing, and in fact are often worse. What you really want is a Hi8 camera with line TBC. But Video8/Hi8 doesn't have tracking, alignment data is recorded into the signal tracks, so having the original camera for this format can sometimes be important (difference between good conversion, bad conversion, or even no conversion).
So if I understand correctly, I can either get a Hi8 camera with line TBC or I can pass it through a DVD recorder like the ES10/15? I guess the only way to tell which of these options is better is to actually try both, since it seems like it's largely dependent of the quality (or lack there of) of the tapes.

Quote:
ATI 600 USB, yes, works great with PAL, only the useless tuner is NTSC (nobody uses these as tuners in the 2020s). Will not work reliably with Win10, or at all.
Thank you for the recommendation. I have an older PC (circa 2010) which I can put Windows XP or Windows 7 on, so I'm not restricted to Windows 10. Does capturing require a lot of RAM, as it only has about 4GB?

Quote:
Correct, TBC required.
But also don't confuse line TBC with frame TBC. Line is in-frame, frame is inter-frame. You need both. The line TBC mostly corrects the image (some frame correction), while the frame corrects the signal (with some visual improvements).
Thanks for picking up on this, that was definitely a point of confusion for me which makes much more sense now.

Quote:
DataVideo makes good TBCs (and bad), but it's merely one option. The TBC-3000 is only good if a 3rd gen unit. The 1st/2nd have issues, especially in the 2020s, and almost always need refurb work. The 1st/2nd can do PAL, but are somewhat bad at it. The TBC-3000 is scarce anyway.
I mentioned that one specifically, as it was the only one I could find on ebay. I have no idea if it's a 3rd gen unit or not though, so it's a good thing you mentioned that!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by timtape View Post
This has to be one of the most basic and difficult aspects these days: avoiding permanently damaging irreplaceable recordings just by playing them. Playing an otherwise well preserved tape is usually the most dangerous moment in the tape's life. All the fancy processing equipment in the world is useless if we destroy the fragile tape's contents trying to play it back.
To add: DO NOT FF/REW FOR NO REASON!
Duly noted!

Just for my own understanding, these Hi8 tapes were originally copied to VHS tapes for home viewing (probably via composite output from the camera directly into a VHS recorder). I assume this was also the intended way for people to do this, so how did that work without the need for a line or frame TBC?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
09-06-2021, 05:48 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,786
Thanked 2,496 Times in 2,122 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
Actually with Windows 10, Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is one of the few cards that works without any problem!
There are reported issues with it. But glad to read that it works for you ... so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistedSystem View Post
So if I understand correctly, I can either get a Hi8 camera with line TBC or I can pass it through a DVD recorder like the ES10/15?
Better camera = best option.

Quote:
Just for my own understanding, these Hi8 tapes were originally copied to VHS tapes for home viewing (probably via composite output from the camera directly into a VHS recorder). I assume this was also the intended way for people to do this, so how did that work without the need for a line or frame TBC?
Analog copying baked in errors. TBC was still needed back then. Lack of TBC just lost (usually excessive) quality. Also, unlike digital, analog didn't really have dropped frames, so that's a new dimension to recording.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #13  
09-06-2021, 06:14 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 676
Thanked 193 Times in 165 Posts
Quote:
There are reported issues with it.
It is a bit off topic, but just for clarity there is not a single reported issue in any place that I know. Maybe you are confusing with some other card ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
09-06-2021, 06:31 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,786
Thanked 2,496 Times in 2,122 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
It is a bit off topic, but just for clarity there is not a single reported issue in any place that I know. Maybe you are confusing with some other card ;-)
I'm not confused at all. Emails and PMs, not public forum conversations. But I am sure some of the folks have posted about it here, I just don't remember where. It wasn't a thread dedicated to the card not working in Win10, but just comments in threads. I encourage discussion of such things, and try to not hide advice in private. Unfortunately, some people are just shy about public participation.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #15  
09-06-2021, 07:53 PM
servese43 servese43 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 68
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The problem with DVD recorders it they're not TBCs. It's a mere line TBC, non-frame, and can still allow dropped frames, and often does. And then it has other issues like luma (washed out colors, too-bright image), adding artifacts (posterization, aggressive NR, etc), false anti-copy detections, and did I mentioned dropped frames still possible? These have non-TBC frame syncs.

Hi8/Video8 is a drop-happy format (much worse than VHS is), and one of the few cases where I can reliably confuse ES10/15 units.

DVD recorders are sorta-kinda options, extreme cost cutting. It has a fail rate, tapes that will transfer badly, or not at all. Yes, it will work fine for some % of tapes. The way to fortify the line TBC of a a strong DVD recorder is to use a frame TBC (and the weaker DVK is fine, when these are paired into a TBC'ish setup).
Fair enough. Don't really know heaps about Hi8 as a format but I'd read that it was stable before (now I know it's visually stable but not that stable in terms of signal.) By 1st gen I meant commercial video tapes and off-air recordings made with a VCR, but not dubs of another VHS tape. Those are the only kind of tapes I have and the RDR-HXD870 has worked beautifully on them (and it doesn't produce any of the artefacts the Panasonic recorders make). Anyway I just made that post for IF the OP wanted to take the budget route. Definitely get an actual TBC or a DVK to pair with the recorders for better results.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know why there are fewer DVD recorders available in the US market, and why they're so much more expensive than in Europe/Australia, and probably a few other commonwealth countries?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
09-06-2021, 08:13 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,786
Thanked 2,496 Times in 2,122 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
On an unrelated note, does anyone know why there are fewer DVD recorders available in the US market, and why they're so much more expensive than in Europe/Australia, and probably a few other commonwealth countries?
Good question.

To some degree, I think it (and VCRs) are a supply-and-demand issue. The USA, more than Europe or elsewhere, is a disposable economy. So much e-waste comes from USA (and Canada), including items that still had usefulness, whereas EU is more about recycle and reuse(+resell). That loss of used goods strains the supply-side half of the supply-and-demand secondary market economy. Less goods, higher costs.

It's a good hypothesis, at least.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #17  
09-07-2021, 12:13 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,367
Thanked 552 Times in 510 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
On an unrelated note, does anyone know why there are fewer DVD recorders available in the US market, and why they're so much more expensive than in Europe/Australia, and probably a few other commonwealth countries?
Here in the US DVD recorders didn't last long enough like DVD players to be available everywhere, The first generation was buggy and expensive and blank media was expensive for the masses, more expensive than blank VHS tapes obviously, Not long after that DVR's where becoming main stream in cable and satellite boxes as well as third party boxes like Tivo. DVD players in the other hand are everywhere, thrift stores, recycling facilities, flea markets, they lasted pretty much from the creation of DVD to today, yes DVD players are still being made.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
09-07-2021, 04:35 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: London - UK
Posts: 568
Thanked 88 Times in 76 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Here in the US DVD recorders didn't last long enough like DVD players to be available everywhere, The first generation was buggy and expensive and blank media was expensive for the masses, more expensive than blank VHS tapes obviously, Not long after that DVR's where becoming main stream in cable and satellite boxes as well as third party boxes like Tivo. DVD players in the other hand are everywhere, thrift stores, recycling facilities, flea markets, they lasted pretty much from the creation of DVD to today, yes DVD players are still being made.
Heavens, you make it sound like we still use them!?

No, they were very shortlived in the UK at least, I never owned one but I know the people who did had a load of issues with them, timeshifting here got a lot easier around 2000ish as Sky+ (Sky is/was our Rupert Murdoch owed television system) was launched which was a PVR based system and caught on very quickly - I'm sure similar things happened around Europe too. TiVO was a thing here, but it was supplanted by the Murdoch supplied Sky+ boxes, and our cable operator is entirely monopolised in the UK too (Virgin - Richard Branson) and they did a similar thing rather early in the technologies life.

LordSmurf has an interesting hypothesis, I wonder if it's because many European countries are compatively small and wealthy compared to the larger North American markets meaning it's a lot easier to change technologies in the marketplace. By around 2005 here having a video machine would have been seen as quite passe, I don't know if it was the same in North America?

The other issue we have (and it's a well-noted issue in the audiotape community) is that our houses are tiny compared to North American homes, there's no great desire to keep things here - space is a premium in the UK at least, there's 70 million of us living in an area approximately the size of Florida. There's very much a culture of 'one in-one out' with our technology as many Brits simply don't have the space to keep things, hence they're often just sold on or donated. We don't have your huge garages, sheds, extra rooms etc, space is generally at a premium. From our perspective it looks like you all live in huge mansions where we see US television and films! Coronation Street is not like Dynasty!

That's why our washing machines are in the kitchen too, which I know causes confusion to Americans, having a seperate area for a washing machine is seen as a symbol of wealth here!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
09-07-2021, 06:55 AM
traal traal is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 404
Thanked 79 Times in 72 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
By around 2005 here having a video machine would have been seen as quite passe, I don't know if it was the same in North America?
I was an early TiVo adopter, and movies on DVD were cheap and becoming widely available, and cable TV provided so much content to watch that there was no time to rewatch old episodes. So starting around 1999, I no longer felt the need to own a VCR anymore, or in fact anything that could record shows onto removable media.

So yes, owning a VCR was a little passe in 2005.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
09-07-2021, 07:11 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 676
Thanked 193 Times in 165 Posts
Off Topic
Quote:
But I am sure some of the folks have posted about it here, I just don't remember where.
It wasn't a thread dedicated to the card not working in Win10, but just comments in threads.
I have never seen one.

Quote:
Emails and PMs, not public forum conversations. Unfortunately, some people are just shy about public participation.
As many others, I'm using Hauppauge USB-Live 2 since long time and across many Windows 10 update. Never ever had a problem.
Tell your "shy" pen pals to just use the latest drivers and do proper installation.

-- merged --

Most of what RobustReviews said also applies in Italy, my born country and in France, where I lived longtime!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Tags
hi8, lossless

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Moving between Windows and Mac: capture-edit-convert workflow? cdisimone Project Planning, Workflows 4 10-19-2020 05:38 AM
New Article: What's in a Pro Video Workflow to Convert Videotapes? lordsmurf General Discussion 9 01-15-2020 02:57 AM
Advice needed: finalizing brand-new capture workflow? bentley Project Planning, Workflows 9 05-12-2019 09:47 AM
SuperBeta workflow needed. Judd_the_budd Capture, Record, Transfer 4 06-25-2018 04:30 PM
When to convert PAL to NTSC in a workflow? Mejnour Project Planning, Workflows 3 01-16-2012 03:29 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55 AM