Blackmagic capture, no dropped frames?
 

Hi all,down to my last 20 tapes to transfer. workflow jvc9600u-pvw2800 - decklink 4k extreme 12g- bmd media express, windows 10, 10900k 32 gigs ram 1080ti nvme drive. resolve for deinterlace and upscale.

have seen previous posts suggesting that black magic capture cards were bad with lots of dropped frames and audio sync issues also to stay clear of windows 10. happy to report that everything worked great maybe things are getting better at bmd or with windows or computers in general.

majority of my captures were vhsc tapes with some hi 8. the hi 8 is straight out of the camcorder no tbc. captured everything no problems.before i got my jvc deck tested a 1.5 hour capture using a go-video no tbc standard vhs deck and had no issues if the source was clean (pro recorded commercial tapes) for camcorder vhsc tapes the 9600u was needed . fingers crossed i get through the last 20 hi8 tapes with no issues .

Well done. With another 20 tapes to transfer I would have the tape path of the Hi 8 player manually and thoroughly cleaned as some sort of insurance against problems including irreversible tape damage.

No issues with a non-TBC deck? Samples needed.

did a quick 5 min capture for you uploading original res and interlaced to yt now . here is a video from my ipad as i was capping to show you the workflow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjCpXqJfhPQ this is a 10$ vhs i got from goodwill yesterday playing a tape from the same good will captured off someones vhs 20 years ago heres deinterlaced version of cap https://youtu.be/chDDeLf4CTQ a cap from a betacam sp deck https://youtu.be/Xb-dFSD2kf0 a cap from hi8 on digital 8 camcorder svhs out https://youtu.be/-RE7lwtg3gs

- "bush vhs test deinterlaced" looks awful. Wiggly, wiggly, wiggly. This is lack of line TBC.
- "haouli test 1080" isn't useful. All camera shake.
- "Jay Real cheats death" not great values, but everything else seems fine. Lots of motion there, hard to tell for certain.

Erratic motion and overt line timing errors can mask dropped frames issues.

It's always possible that this specific blackmagic is set up differently to e.g the intensity shuttle ones and doesn't drop to the extent that those do.

The pvw2800 has a built in tbc (I'm not sure if it buffers full frames or not but probably more than sufficient on a betacam tapes), so one would expect that one to be stable. the signal from the sony hi8/d8 camcorders with tbc is generally stable outside of very major errors on the tapes and imperfect between recordings. The vhs one does indicate that it's not giving black frames to nearly the extent that some blackmagic cards do at least.

the bush vhs was specifically captured from a 10$ goodwill vhs with worn heads with a composite cable the worst case scenario i could come up with .if i played one of my vhsc tapes it would have been wiggle lines all over the place. the point was the card did not drop any frames and just keeps recording if there is a signal on the screen of my camcorder for example there will be an image on the computer. the rest was just better sources beta and hi 8. I would do any specific test you guys like to try to see if this card is any better then previous BMD stuff. would rewinding and ffwding during a capture be a good test to check for drops ? I agree 100 % a TBC would have helped I do most of my captures with a jvc9600 i have passed the signal through the pvw2800 but currently dont use it. jvc or camcorder straight to card.. here is an old vhs bodyboard video from jvc to decklink card upscale is with resolve to 1080 https://youtu.be/6mgW6lubGfU . I have seen the decklink clean up snow i think there is some form of tbc on it . thanks for keeping an open mind guys i needed the decklink for hdr color grading in resolve anyway so i was happy to give it a try as a capture card. the jvc was an expense but i trusted the advice you guys gave on what to get and am very happy i did .

Some of the BM analog to SDI and analog to PCI are indeed decent, You are not the first one to report them, members here and at VH have seen success using them, Jwillis just posted a thread over at VH about the analog to SDI converter. What is the exact model number to look up the user manual?

Anyway, the key to a successful capture with no dropped frames or audio sync problems is drivers and port bandwidth, BM with their MediaExpress took care of the driver issue under any OS platform and their devices work either as expansion cards or USB 3.0, So they don't have the USB 2.0 and its drivers issues.

There is two problems with your captures though, levels are all over the place and you have too much black borders around the frame, I know the decklink captures at 486 but that's more than 6 lines, So I don't know what went wrong, a lossless sample from the raw capture will help figure out what is going on.

Thanks Latreche34. this is the model i am using https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...specs/W-DLK-25 .what would be the ideal length, size of the sample ,subject matter preferred. and are the levels something i can change or is that related to the source material. Lordsmurf also mentioned the "values" not being great i am unclear as to what is being refereed to. i am guessing it is the brightness black levels etc. do we need a source thats stable like filming a test chart? should i upload as an attachment here or is there a preferred Dropbox ? can you link to the jwillis thread i am unfamiliar with "VH" so i do not know where to go to check for it . preferred file format for the sample avi or quicktime rgb 10 bit or yuv ?

Regardless the source level you can always tweak it in the proc amp, BM desktop software should have a tab where you can see all the controls such as luminance, chrominance, hue ...etc. You can also capture with vdub 1.9 it has a nice tool for levels called histograms. I hope you didn't pay $895 for it, Most of that premium price is for the 4K option which is not needed for capturing analog into SD.

Samples of 20 to 30sec, MediaExpress 8bit YUV, use vdub2 to make a quick losslessly compressed HuffYUV AVI 4:2:2 YUV2. Dropbox is fine if the sample is over 99MB, You can always post at videohelp and link it here, they have 500MB upload cap.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...uct-with-a-TBC

i uploaded to "video help" https://forum.videohelp.com/attachme...e3%20vdub2.avi this was filmed/recorded with digi8 camcorder i am using for transfers then captured in media express. the lines on the bottom are not on the border. so i will make another small sample from svhs. just wanted to make sure i got the codecs right

D8 recordings are not analog, therefore they are always better captured using a DV workflow, Digital camera, firewire, WinDV or Sclive. And they are not the right source to stress test analog workflows.

here are 2 samples off the jvcsvhs with the tbc on https://forum.videohelp.com/attachme...in%20tones.avi https://forum.videohelp.com/attachme...a%20adjust.avi i sent the signal out to my shogun external monitor that has tools and used false color to set luma off the skin tones for the first sample

The BM Desktop Video utility does allow some level settings for analog captures. For s-video inputs you can set luma and chroma gain a you can specify set-up as 7.5 or 0 IRE. (Not full proc amp adjustment capability.) The BMD devices I've seen will crush ultra blacks (below setup) and may clip ultra whites above somewhere between 100 and 110 IRE, both of which can happen with analog signals from home recordings and VCRs.

MediaExpress can be set to stop capture on detected dropped frames, which may or may not detect all dropped frames.

What capture format are you using? M-JPEG?

Yep, Perfect. That's how a pro device capture looks like, Nice and straight vertical frame edges, extra top 6 lines for caption/teletext acquisition, Bottom head switch signal band, You could still tweak luma and chroma levels scene by scene if you want to devote the time to it otherwise these would be your typical master files, All processing should be done from files like these.

those were both using avi 8 bit in media express then converted to Latreche34s instructions i have set it to stop capture if it detects dropped frames thank you

This is the main issue with Blackmagic cards. The detection is bad to not there. That's a main reason BM cards are not usable for more serious users. Newbie users just assume no drops, and ram through their VHS project without paying it any close attention. Far too many learn of the problems later, sometimes years later.

Lordsmurf is there a way to detect dropped frames . i just changed the setting so i have no idea how well it will work. did you see any dropped frames in my samples ? or is it not something you can see with your eyes. i am a newbie but i dont want to be "the newbie" who finds out years later.

Not really. There are ways to see dupes, dropout frames, but not really drops. Not until watching, or paying attention while editing -- which is when it always get noticed. Nobody sees it realtime in their tiny 4" preview screen on the computer, but they will on a large HDTV, or non-realtime editor (NLE).

Don't assume "no dropped frames".
Assume = ass-u-me

For example, VirtualDub can essentially be set to not report drops, and it has a counter that will then be static as "0 drops" (but it's BS).

Verify.
On verification, many people recant (or disappear :laugh:).

thank you, will check all my footage for drops when i am editing on 4k monitor frame by frame.

Two possible additional symptoms of drops are audio and video losing sync, and/or gaps in the audio waveform.

The main rub with BMD analog signal capture gear has long been that it expects a good, stable, legal video signal. Also, the Intensity Pro 4K is NOT suitable for component analog video capture, a known problem that BMD has decided not to fix; I suspect little market demand for it to justify the cost. On the other hand the original IP was OK, but fussier about the signal. (I have not use the card you have.)

These days I mainly used the BMD cards for HDMI and SDI capture.

The bottom line is you will have to judge for yourself whether or not what you can do now meets your needs, or if changes in workflow/gear are in order.

Same here, I just use BM for SDI digital streaming to HDD where the data is already serialized and packed just like ripping a DVD to HDD or transferring DV to HDD, Media Express doesn't know where the frames are within the data pocket to drop them.

Since the OP is capturing analog into Media Express, to find out if it is dropping frames is to set it to stop capture if dropped frames are detected and try to disconnect the analog input to the capture card and see what happens, alternatively playback a video around the end of the tape where it reaches the static area, Though if the card is built in TBC it may fight the signal drop.

I had it on and a tape i was capturing had a 2 frame drop outs on the tape that repeated at the same place at 7 mins in 17 mins in. it definitely catches dropped frames and seems pretty sensitive to it.

No such TBC exists in any capture card made to date. At most, you have some TBC(ish) type function within the closed loop SDI appliances, with varying degrees of strength.

That's what I thought, Does it stop capture though? It will be a handy feature for capturing full tapes so when the tape reaches the end, the app stops the capture. Please do try it and let us know, I can't use this feature because I'm not capturing analog into Media Express.

It stops capture. I would love to see two things in media express a simple counter or better a log file that shows the drops and when they occurred but leaves the capture running.second a way to sync the camera or deck to stop when the recording stops.

Software that doesn't show drops is inexcusably bad, not suggested whatsoever. That's been the case for decades now. When a company like BM doesn't add it, then it really shows you what a crappy afterthought feature analog/SD capturing was. It's an HD cards that "also does" SD, and quite badly. It's a very non-standard piece of gear. It's now been a few years, but if VirtualDub worked at all, it'd also drop silently in it. So zero reporting, and it may not even log in the hardware. Even the $2 Easycap shows dropped frames! Pathetic, really.

I had high hopes for the BM, some 10+ years ago, when it was not yet released, showcased at NAB.

Camera control is a wishful thinking, This is not BM fault, Analog camcorders and VCR's cannot be controlled externally by software since they don't have any digital interface like DV camcorders and decks do.

If you want to see the statistics of dropped frames just capture with vdub.

i know its wishfull thinking. lordsmurf what part of vdub is not working ? what is the card doing "quite poorly" .after capturing over 90 tapes ,10 terrabytes of files.i am not having problems with dropped frames, the card has not one time stopped capturing during rewinds changing sources etc. it reports dropped files perfectly in vdub and stops capturing in media express if you have it set to do it . i wish media express had reports of frames dropped too but that is the software not the card. with no TBC 0-2 dropped frames per 120 minute tape seems very reasonable

Re-read what I wrote. BM cards will drop frames without reporting. It's in the hardware. So a VirtualDub counter showing 0 frames dropped is still not accurate. Frames drop, without being reported. This has been known for about a decade now. And BM has never fixed it. In fact, all BM really did in that time was silently drop their marketing for the card being good for VHS/etc.

You can still get drops reported from VirtualDub, but it's after the capture card. For example, system I/O underrun causing drops, such as capturing to the OS drive.

Media Express is a proprietary software for the card. Not too different from ATI MMC. During the AGP/PCI/USB AIW era, MMC had an accurate drop counter. It was removed in PCIe, so unusable. But at least the PCIe AIW still accurately reported to VirtualDub. No so with BM cards.

Thanks Lordsmurf i have not looked at every bit of footage but i will use the footage as the final call as to if the card is doing a good job. so far what i have looked at has been ok.i am on my last tape when i get a bit of time i will retry the tape i know had 2 dropouts when i was capturing last night. i know the exact times and places it happens ill see if it goes through vdub with or without reporting it and report back.im doing the last tape in vdub now and having the decklink output to my atamos which is much more sensitive to dropped frames . for what its worth i shot a bunch of bodyboarding videos back in the 90s and my partner and i released 3 tapes to market and i contributed to a bunch more so i am archiving all the old surf footage . i need the actual shots to be as high quality as possible for archive and possibly will remaster and release some of the tapes...just wrapped up the end of my last tape as i was typing and noticed the telltale popping hit 6 times right at the end of the tape i know that media express would have stopped recording if i had it set to stop on drop frames but vdub reported it as 6 frames inserted and none dropped so i can confirm what your telling me as far as vdub and reporting . now on to fun projects like video glitch art and weird vhs finds at thrift stores for youtube :) my partner still has 120 hi 8 tapes to go through but thank god im done :)

To amplify a bit this is true for much consumer stuff and for much capture software. However, many Video8/Hi8 camcorders and Video8/Hi8 VCRs supported Sony's LANC protocol that did allow control of the camcorder/VCR by software provided the PC had the proper interface. The bad news was only a few PC software products supported it for linear editing purposes. LANC is a serial data protocol that provides device control as well as time code (if present). LANC is still found on Sony and Canon MiniDV, HDV, and HD camcorders and is used by tripod handle camcorder controllers.

Also a lot of industrial/professional analog gear supported control via RS422 protocols provided the computer had the appropriate software running.

Panasonic (Edit jack) and JVC (compulink jack) had similar edit control interfaces on gear such as the AG-19xx and HR-Sxxxx but I am not aware of corresponding PC software, only firmware is dedicated edit control devices.

the decklink actually has a connection for the rs422 .i think the betacam deck also has it. getting all to work together and stop the deck on a frame drop is probably not something that anyone will program. i run decklink out to the atamos shogun to check for clipping or crushing . i was told to make sure i check use video levels in resolve settings or the blacks will crush. and i try to monitor out to a 4k 65 inch tv while im capturing from the atamos which is nice to have.. i am on the lookout for it after you warned me :)

I was not aware that the decklink has a connection for the RS422, otherwise I would have worded my last post differently, I know pro tape decks do have such a feature to communicate with SDI cards for pure digital streaming, Didn't know an analog capture card has it, I guess you got everything you wanted so far.