What is a TBC, how do I get it?
So I've read one of the sticky posts in /r/Datahoarder on reddit and poked around otherwise. Some questions I'm not seeing the answers to (maybe they're too obvious):
1. Where do I get head cleaners in this day and age? Is it expected you'll open the devices and do it manually? 2. What about Beta? I have an old Beta player, but it doesn't have svideo - is that a dealbreaker? Do I need to find one with Svideo? 3. Regarding TBC, does a passthrough device cover that or does it depend on the device? How do I find out if it has it? If it does, is it automatic or does it require additional configuration? Right now, I'm only trying to digitize my minidv, 8/hi-8, Beta, and VHS tapes (home videos). Not starting a business, this will be a one and done situation. I have a mini dv camcorder, a hi-8 camcorder, an old VHS (no svideo) and an old Beta player (no svideo). I have a variety of computer, though I'm hoping to use my slightly older one for this because it has a Creative Audigy 2 card with firewire (that's good, right?). My parents used to do some video stuff and spent way more money than they should have. That means I can borrow a Sony DHR1000 from them which only plays Minidv, but might work as a passthrough? Anyway, I've got some of the picture figured out, but I'm missing a few pieces in the middle. |
For the tbc explanation : imagine a perfect vertical line recorded on vhs : without tbc it'll be more or less crooked whereas with tbc it'll be straight or almost. That would be the effect of a line-tbc. There are other types of tbc (frame tbc and i think field tbc ? ) dedicated for very bad tapes generally
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Ok, so how do I make that happen? I read that some players have it built-in so when you do passthrough it's covered... or no?
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Welcome. :)
Read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...time-base.html The Reddit thread you refer to is from nicholasserra, a member in this forum as well. Quick writeup, decent, summary crash course to open your eyes to quality video conversion. 1. Don't use head cleaner. Ever. Not now, not years/decades ago. All those do is pushed around dirt, not remove it. Actually open it up, and clean with either non-cotton (!!!) swabs, or the copy-paper method (as foam/chamois swabs are getting both more expensive, and lower in quality, can actually damage the VCR). Detailed posts on this are in the forum. 2. "Beta" isn't a format. Betamax, BetacamSP, some "Beta" others? Since no s-video, assuming Betamax. Not my format, but lingyi was who I deferred to here. He's been MIA lately (hope he's okay), but here's a thread from some years ago: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ut#post2573611 3. "TBC" is a wide term, refers to many things. Line TBC, frame TBC, frame sync TBC, field TBCs, etc. And those can vary highly based on source designed for. So you can't just randomly look for the term "TBC", and then smash a buy button on Amazon/eBay/wherever. The ES10/15, for example, is just a strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. Whereas the TBC-1000 is a frame sync TBC, along with Cypress models, few others. The whole "starting a business" (or "pro quality") is a meaningless term. Video quality is either good, or bad. It doesn't really have gradations of quality. And while businesses/pros should want the best quality, sadly that's too often not the case. LegacyBox, for example, awful reputation when you get past the BS fake "reviews" online. So do you want quality, or just cram a tape in, and whatever gets pooped out is what you'll accept? Because that's how it works. Both have learning curve, but only one is rewarding. DV cameras for DV tapes, the end there. DV cameras rarely have TBC passthrough. And the VHS "passthrough" is low=quality DV conversion using 1990s methods/tech. A random "old VHS" (old VCR) almost never works for conversion. Exact model/brand matters, and don't be surprised if it's not at all useful. You'll just make your own capture life miserable by insisting on using a crummy old random VCR. Quote:
Line is essentially Frame/framesync is interframe (frame to frame, or field to field). So timing/TBCing on different axes. Quote:
Exact models depends on PAL vs. NTSC. In general, JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCRs with line TBC. Then DataVideo/Cypress type frame TBCs. Be wary of eBay. Lots of bad stuff sold there, sellers are liars and idiots. Bad VCRs that aren't "working" or "tested" as claimed. Bad chipset TBCs. Items that don't actually have a TBC are "TBCs". Etc, etc. eBay is a video dumping ground, gambling. |
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Thank you for all of that. I understand this is the gold standard, but I'm not convinced poor record is worse than no record at all. I'm not against spending a bit to get my setup done, but besides total cost, there's a factor of number of tapes I'll be recording. It doesn't make sense to drop thousands for a handful of tapes IMO. That said, I'm all-in on doing the best I can - just not sure how to proceed. I looked for the TBCs you mentioned and can't find them anyway (except on on Ebay for about 2k). For SVHS, also not easy. I can start looking around in the Pawn shops and at least its easy to see what's SVHS by the logo. Any recommendations for finding the gear? Also, is it the TBC that makes the final connection to the computer? Is that via Firewire or would I need some kind of capture card/dongle that takes Svideo? |
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Note that you might want a proc amp between the TBC and capture device for color/brightness/contrast/tint correction to get the video in the right ballpark before digitizing. The preferred connection method for analog consumer video such as VHS, Video8, S-VHS, and Hi8 is s-video. Some capture devices such as the Canopus ADVC series use firewire (aka IEEE1394 & iLink) to connect to the PC, but they are not preferred capture devices mainly because they output a DV signal. The DV signal suffers from lossy compression and is especially vulnerable to noise in the video. However, it is generally better to ingest MiniDV and Digital8 tapes directly via firewire. Quote:
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VCR > TBC > capture card And ideally not just any random VCR or TBC, but JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC > DataVideo/Cypress type frame TBC > known-quality capture card Quote:
Some form is TBC is required. You cannot just go VCR > card, and expect it to work. Dropped frames, audio sync issues, etc. The "gold standard" is using gear where a single piece costs more than the entire workflow that you're being suggested to use. There are setups that I refer to as "TBC(ish)", TBC-like in function. Budget options, well under $1k. These items have drawbacks and caveats, vs. actual TBCs, but it will suffice for the budget constricted. Usually. Quote:
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Not eBay. It's a video dumping ground, including all the "tested" and "working" gear (not actually tested, not actually working). Pawn shops won't have anything. This wasn't the sort of gear that the pawn shop demographic ever owned. Quote:
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Beyond all this, family history gets lost this way. "See that fuzzy blob? That's our grandma!" (Not joking here. It's so sad to see, for example, 8mm film that was trashed after VHS conversion. Or VHS tapes after a blocky 6-hour mode 352x240 drop-frame deinterlace DVD conversion.) It reminds me of how gullible children are. You could literally give a kid a can of Alpo, then say something like "boy, that sure is good, isn't it!" And the kid will often say "uh-huh" in agreement -- even if it tastes awful! ... and they actually tested this. Freshpet, not Alpo. So a bit more upscale. But still. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtHa8Cf4BOI And as funny as that video was, dog food isn't fit for human consumption, even so-called "human ingredient" food. The QC is more lenient, and more forgiving to the more acidic/robust guts of animals (non-humans). Notice Youtube comments were disabled. That's really not too different from all the crappy half-baked Chinese video gear and random video doodads. Quote:
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Bad is a relative term. What qualifies as bad for most of the regulars here may well qualify as acceptable to others not into seriously video transfer/preservation. Like the difference between grade AA, A, and grade B egg, or perhaps USDA Prime, Choice, Select, Standard, Commercial, Utility, Cutter and Canner grades of beef. I still contend that content is king. Almost everyone watched the Rodney King and OJ chase videos, even it is was bad, because the content was compelling. It also becomes a trade-off; i.e., do I want to invest the time, energy, and money to learn how to do it better, or declare victory on the tape transfers at some point short of the possible and move on to something else that is now more more important in my life. But then "content" may be defined as the image, or as the underlying action depending on the viewers priorities. If the number of tapes is relatively small they might want to farm it out to a reputable transfer service rather than ramp up to DIY. I am reminded of a friend who shot his son's wedding. In the interest of getting the editing perfect he never completed the project before they were divorced. |
Thank you both! I'll check out the market place and see about getting the best equipment I can within reason. That said, I have to agree with dpalomaki and maintain that something is better than nothing. Not everyone has the time, money, and expertise to do this "right". I originally used a USB capture card and it was "fine" in the sense that it played and it didn't have any strong issues that I can recall. If this ends up costing more than a few hundred dollars in the end, I'll probably go back to that and be happy I at least have it digital (though I'll keep the tapes just in case).
I really hope that doesn't sound ungrateful - definitely not my point. I greatly appreciate both the time and obvious expertise you're offering. |
Oneanddone:
Note the "Our Services" link on the page banner. The operators of this web site may be able to do the transfer for you. Contact them if that interests you. (I do not know their details as to turn around or cost.) |
I would like to see comparison captures that demonstrate the need for a frame TBC.
I have a DVK-200 which isn't a "proper" TBC but has TBC-like effects. The problem is, I can't see the difference, and I can keep audio sync without it with no dropped frames. There are comparison videos around showing how a DVD recorder can act as a Line TBC and drastically improve video captures, but I've never seen any showing the effects of a frame TBC such as a Datavideo 1000. Given a TBC-1000 costs over a $1000, one would expect some visual improvement to be obvious. |
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In term of "quality of a video" it must fix the synch between frames, rebuild the relative timings, avoid frame drops, and provide a clean and stable signal to the capture card. So a comparison between with and without will be a sequance of a captured video where you see differences in the sequence of the images, but the intrinsic quality of the capture should not change in term of captured detail, stability of the frame (for this we need a lineTBC), color, saturation, etc. If dealing with pristine tapes you may no need a frameTBC in the same way as you may no need a DVD-R passthrough if you use a S-VHS VCR with a line TBC. Most of the time you do need a frameTBC, and sometime you need the DVD-R passthrough if the lineTBC of the VRC is not strong enough. |
Thanks Lollo, I suppose I'm relating to what I'm seeing here. Even with the most God-awful tape being run through a ES15, I'm not "seeing" any difference when I include the DVK-200 in the chain. The signal is already rock-solid (no drops, in-sync) coming out of the ES15 and, especially at the price of a TBC-1000, I really am struggling with the need for one ("required", as some say).
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- I need to eat food, so I'll take the best available. - But if I want to watch a video, I'll only watch something good (as will others). Watching a badly shot home movie of a birthday party or T-ball game from 30-40 years ago is hard enough, but if it looks/sounds like crap, we're all just going to stop watching, find something else to do. I'm sure some people are into self-punishment, suffering/slogging through a rough watch/listen (or read) experience. But those people are a tiny minority. It's the same type of person who enjoys seeing somebody else's baby pictures on Facebook (aka, a top activity that gets most people blocked from most feeds). Quote:
There are several widely accepted and acknowledged ideas of bad quality: - tracking problems, - audio desync, - fuzzy/software picture. There's also issues that a person sees (and often dislikes), but doesn't know how to describe: - chroma noise, - wiggly de-timed video. Sadly, some people are under the wrong impression that there errors are "just tapes" and inherent to the format. No, not correct. Inherent to bad methods, not the format. After those major flaws -- aka, a main reason to use TBC -- it does quickly get more nuances. I'm not at all anal like some posters, who get far into the weeds on things like halo and levels. Yes, technically those are errors, but it gets complex, trade-offs, art even. Quote:
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Yes, there are some visuals that happen, usually single-frame length movements/issues, sometimes AGC (even on non-MV/anti-copy type tapes, or even with cards that "ignore" it). If you only have SP mode 1st gen tapes, then visual changes won't really be an affect. But with degradation of any kind, frame TBC will not only show some visual improves, but also show weakness (ie, why DVK-200 is a weaker unit than something like TBC-1000 or certain Cypress). Frame TBC visuals are nowhere near as obvious as line TBC visuals, unless dealing with a really bad tape**. ** This is a statement that I almost hate to make, because it's too often used out of context. There wrong idea that "frame TBCs are only for bad tapes". False. No. BS. The affects of frame TBC can be felt strongest on bad tapes, but remember the minimum threshold for what a frame TBC does is prevent drooped frames, prevent audio skew . After this thread, and some recent others, I've drawn out some sketches, to try and visually show what a TBC does. It's not entirely technically accurate, but it helps novices understand everything going on with the signal, both visual and non-visual. To-do list, after forum/site upgrade. Nice long guide, put this topic to bed, or even out of its misery. Quote:
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Unfortunately, all TBCs add some % of processing noise. The best TBCs let you adjust it out with very nuances controls. And the type of processing varies, from mere color tint changes, to actual interference type noise (some acceptably faint, some not at all). Quote:
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You're lucky. Congrats. Many are envious. You won the video capture lottery. But realize almost nobody else is so lucky. NOTE: If you have your VirtualDub settings, where the top two boxes are NOT checked in the timing settings, then you're probably dropping frames, and don't know it. Disabling those merely disabled the counter, and the below-preview counter sticks at 0. So you're flying blind, assuming all is well when it is actually dropping. I've seen that too often in recent years. sanlyn had this in his guide, and I left it there to show that it's wrong. But I may edit it, one less wrong thing online. |
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