digitalFAQ.com Forum

digitalFAQ.com Forum (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/)
-   Capture, Record, Transfer (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/)
-   -   BetaMax workflow with TBC? (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12642-betamax-workflow-tbc.html)

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 83641)
Yes the EDV-7500 (EDV-7300 Canadian clone) is the best ED Beta machine, Having owned few, The EDV-9500 is an editing model, if you leave it in processing mode it softens the picture, Ray Glasser the Betaholic owned one and mentioned that he didn't like the picture my guess is he tried it in processing mode. The 7500 doesn't have those extra useless (now) circuit boards so that's why it has a slim design, It does have digital processing for freeze frame and possible signal stabilization since it's built in digital memory though Sony never mentioned the word TBC in their manual.

Well, every day is a school day, I didn't know there was a single machine ever with S-Video, I stand corrected.

Mr Glasser is on my list of people to try and contact for an interview, I do not know if he's still around.

latreche34 03-23-2022 09:35 AM

As lingyi mentioned there was none in Europe with S-Video and most were mono machines, Beta wasn't really a hit in Europe, Video 2000 probably did better.

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 83650)
As lingyi mentioned there was none in Europe with S-Video and most were mono machines, Beta wasn't really a hit in Europe, Video 2000 probably did better.

It did 'okay', remember Europe is a host of different markets, it's not a monolith.

In some markets, Betamax did very well, in others it was almost totally ignored. V2000 was definitely the third horse in the race, beyond the Netherlands (home of Philips) and Germany (Grundig influence) V2000 was little more than a footnote. I think it squeezed about 10% of the UK market for a short period as one example.

Philips seemed to initially approach the concept a bit differently, it takes a bit of explanation but Philips saw home-video as far more of a time shift device than a pre-recorded media device and used the 8-Hour recording time (without quality loss) with V2000 as the selling point rather than available media; in the beginning at least.

I don't have the figures with me, but I recall some of the Nordic nations being a far more even Betamax/VHS split than here in Brexitstan. France is its own story and will be covered in my documentary as it's a bit crazy what went on there, it can be (albeit a bit of a sideways, tongue-in-cheek view) contemplated that the format war actually started in France. I have SECAM Betamax decks so it did make some inroads.

lingyi 03-23-2022 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 83607)
Beta didn't get a chance to improve like VHS did even their latest decks the ED Beta's look too ancient compared to say JVC VHS's from late 90's, Their VCR's always have quirks and you have to babysit them to play correctly.

Have to defend my beloved, but long gone Betamax. The SL-HF2100 looked like something out of Star Trek. The front panel folded down to show a buttonless touch panel and the remote was also buttonless, though I think there were slightly raised ridges around the "buttons". Still you couldn't operate it without looking at the screen.

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lingyi (Post 83634)

The SL-HF950 wasn't ED-Beta and probably didn't have S-Video unless it was through the Euroconnector (unlikely).

Ah, yes you're entirely right. They're SuperBeta Pro which used to the same metal formulation tape, it looks like this quazi-format only existed on two PAL market machines.

I can't find out any information about it, how closely linked to ED it is I've no idea :hmm:

Closecall 03-23-2022 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 83636)
This TBC has composite.
SHIFT to level 1, the first single dot level.
SRC = source
up/down to change
C = composite
S = s-video

It's a RTFM situation (in a nice way). :book:

Note this is a very specific version of this model of TBC. If you buy any random unit, you're going to buy waste money on a flawed paperweight. Beware!

Some TBCs let you crossver C>S or S>C, but it varies. I don't recall offhand how this model acts. It is often part of my TBC testing (per model, not unit), but most fail. I think green AVT-8710 is the only that does it decent, or at all. Be sure the comb filtering is enabled.


Thank you!

Closecall 03-23-2022 04:28 PM

Does anyone have any knowledge on if you go out composite from beta into the TBC composite, then going out S-video into the AIW? Will there be signal issues or any quality loss? Pros or Cons of trying such a method?

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closecall (Post 83662)
Does anyone have any knowledge on if you go out composite from beta into the TBC composite, then going out S-video into the AIW? Will there be signal issues or any quality loss? Pros or Cons of trying such a method?

It's probably the best way - but the best thing is to try it and make your own assessments.

I don't use those AIW cards, but I understand that the Y-C filtering isn't the best. If you're doing this as a hobby why not experiment though, experimentation is all part of it.

You can make a couple of captures and A/B them to determine what works best for you, I'd imagine it will be the Y-C output into the card though.

Closecall 03-23-2022 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83664)
It's probably the best way - but the best thing is to try it and make your own assessments.

I don't use those AIW cards, but I understand that the Y-C filtering isn't the best. If you're doing this as a hobby why not experiment though, experimentation is all part of it.

You can make a couple of captures and A/B them to determine what works best for you, I'd imagine it will be the Y-C output into the card though.

That is a very valid point haha. I just always assume someone has to know more than me and can save me the time doing all the experimenting when it's already been done.

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closecall (Post 83665)
That is a very valid point haha. I just always assume someone has to know more than me and can save me the time doing all the experimenting when it's already been done.

Nobody has your tapes, your machines though, nor your eyes.

There are guidelines certainly, but you need to please yourself ultimately, you don't answer to anybody on here.

If not, you'll get an appreciation of 'why' things are recommended and be able to appreciate the received wisdom, and you can understand what effect Y-C/Composite etc has.

Then you can have a little 20 minute project learning how to make a side-by-side video in AVISynth/VirtualDub for your AB testing. There's quite a bit you can get from that little learning exercise.

Closecall 03-23-2022 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83666)
Nobody has your tapes, your machines though, nor your eyes.

There are guidelines certainly, but you need to please yourself ultimately, you don't answer to anybody on here.

If not, you'll get an appreciation of 'why' things are recommended and be able to appreciate the received wisdom, and you can understand what effect Y-C/Composite etc has.

Then you can have a little 20 minute project learning how to make a side-by-side video in AVISynth/VirtualDub for your AB testing. There's quite a bit you can get from that little learning exercise.

I greatly appreciate this point of view as it is 100% correct and makes very good sense. However, I do want to be able to produce the best possible quality I can get and that's what I've been digging for since I started reading this forum for VHS work and now am focusing on Beta. So seeing what the absolute BEST possible options are "technically" and then working it down from there to what i can either afford, produce, or like personally.
As for the setup I have now though, This is perfect and will definitely do that!

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closecall (Post 83667)
I greatly appreciate this point of view as it is 100% correct and makes very good sense. However, I do want to be able to produce the best possible quality I can get and that's what I've been digging for since I started reading this forum for VHS work and now am focusing on Beta. So seeing what the absolute BEST possible options are "technically" and then working it down from there to what i can either afford, produce, or like personally.
As for the setup I have now though, This is perfect and will definitely do that!

That's a good way of looking at it, naturally, everybody wants the same quality.

There has to be room for a bit of experimentation though, occasionally it turns up trumps, if you're going to go through this you might as well enjoy it and learn a bit about video signals, digitisation etc. The best way to learn why some things are not recommended is to try them, then you'll appreciate why they don't come recommended. Obviously, don't do anything injurious to a machine or a tape!

...and to pinch a quote from a great marketing guru, and something I've learned (sometimes the hard way) in business.... Sometimes, the opposite of a good idea is a good idea.

There are good guidelines and a wealth of information out there but never get in the arms race of satisfying forumites and those you can't pick out from a crowd. Take the advice and do great things with it, but only you can be the judge of what works best with what you have.

lordsmurf 03-23-2022 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closecall (Post 83662)
Does anyone have any knowledge on if you go out composite from beta into the TBC composite, then going out S-video into the AIW? Will there be signal issues or any quality loss? Pros or Cons of trying such a method?

It depends on the gear.

The only question is if the frame TBC takes comp in, and allows svid out. If so, enable the comb filter (should already be on), and you're good to go. Probably. I don't have time to test this with mine right now.

Closecall 03-23-2022 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83668)
That's a good way of looking at it, naturally, everybody wants the same quality.

There has to be room for a bit of experimentation though, occasionally it turns up trumps, if you're going to go through this you might as well enjoy it and learn a bit about video signals, digitisation etc. The best way to learn why some things are not recommended is to try them, then you'll appreciate why they don't come recommended. Obviously, don't do anything injurious to a machine or a tape!

...and to pinch a quote from a great marketing guru, and something I've learned (sometimes the hard way) in business.... Sometimes, the opposite of a good idea is a good idea.

There are good guidelines and a wealth of information out there but never get in the arms race of satisfying forumites and those you can't pick out from a crowd. Take the advice and do great things with it, but only you can be the judge of what works best with what you have.

Thats a great quote! I also greatly appreciate the advice and knowledge you've shared with me here.

On a forward note, I did test the theory of going from Composite to the TBC, Out via S-Video into the AIW and it worked pretty well. The video seems a little hue'd green but that's an easy adjustment. Overall not bad at all. Now to test if some of the imperfections I see are on the tape or within the process as there are some lines and small but noticeable imperfections on the video feed.

lordsmurf 03-23-2022 05:43 PM

Check the TBC proc amp. I don't recall if the comp and svid have isolated settings. I rarely capture composite, and usually use my green AVT-8710 when I do. Most TBCs won't even allow this, there's no crossover.

RobustReviews 03-23-2022 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closecall (Post 83670)
Thats a great quote! I also greatly appreciate the advice and knowledge you've shared with me here.

On a forward note, I did test the theory of going from Composite to the TBC, Out via S-Video into the AIW and it worked pretty well. The video seems a little hue'd green but that's an easy adjustment. Overall not bad at all. Now to test if some of the imperfections I see are on the tape or within the process as there are some lines and small but noticeable imperfections on the video feed.

Rory Sutherland originated the quote, I've been a gushing fan of his work for a while, owning four businesses in various sectors I've had to learn what works and what doesn't and I've had a lot of results from counterintuitive strategy. This can often be applied in life too, if not, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, just take it as a learning exercise.

You know, energy drinks are deliberately flavoured to taste pretty vile, that taste associated with energy drinks was found to be 'just' palatable. Without the taste, energy drinks don't perform as well in either sales or perception - so yeah, sometimes doing the opposite of received wisdom yields results, sometimes. We can all be easily tricked, whether we appreciate it or not, those who claim to be immune are usually the most easily swayed.

Anyway, wandering a bit off-topic, but good luck with everything.

Closecall 03-23-2022 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83672)
Rory Sutherland originated the quote, I've been a gushing fan of his work for a while, owning four businesses in various sectors I've had to learn what works and what doesn't and I've had a lot of results from counterintuitive strategy. This can often be applied in life too, if not, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, just take it as a learning exercise.

You know, energy drinks are deliberately flavoured to taste pretty vile, that taste associated with energy drinks was found to be 'just' palatable. Without the taste, energy drinks don't perform as well in either sales or perception - so yeah, sometimes doing the opposite of received wisdom yields results, sometimes. We can all be easily tricked, whether we appreciate it or not, those who claim to be immune are usually the most easily swayed.

Anyway, wandering a bit off-topic, but good luck with everything.

Thank you very much! Also it makes perfect sense. Its about Risk. Everything great requires risks and leaps. Everyone thought facebook marketing would be a joke until billions of eyes were on it every day.
For some reason I've always loved that weird energy drink style flavor hahaha. Not all of them but some in particular and it makes sense how you put it. Thank you for the fun conversation though. Much appreciated again.

lingyi 03-23-2022 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83656)
Ah, yes you're entirely right. They're SuperBeta Pro which used to the same metal formulation tape, it looks like this quazi-format only existed on two PAL market machines.

I can't find out any information about it, how closely linked to ED it is I've no idea :hmm:

Ahhh...and I thought I knew about Beta! Never heard of SuperBeta Pro. Here's some info about it: https://www.palsite.com/950ovi.html
https://www.palsite.com/tapes.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmkKHR6YRes

Pro-X were regular oxide formulation, though high quality tapes, not metal oxide like the ED-Beta tapes. I tried used a ED-Beta tape in on of my non-ED-Beta machines and got nothing. Another interesting trait of ED-Beta tapes were they were immune to the bulk eraser I had for reel-to-reel tapes, unlike regular Beta and VHS tapes.

BetaSP tapes like the one shown in the video were available in both oxide and metal.

The first of these tapes was the Pro-X tape which worked with the Super Beta Pro mode found on the SL-HF750 and SL-HF950. After this came tapes for the ED-BETA format. Sadly there are very few PAL ED-BETA machines available, in the NTSC market lots of models were produced and some are still available. Although Pro-X tapes were intended for use in Super Betamax format, they were often found by many as a high grade tape for the standard beta. One particularly good use was for PCM audio recordings.

According to Palsite, PAL ED-BETA machines are now only to be found in the middle eastern markets in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Israel. Another fact I didn't know.

I also learned that the SL-HF950 was the PAL version of the SL-HF750. As I recall, the Sl-HF750 was the last mid/high end Betamax. I considered getting one at the time, but as I recall, I somehow, probably from Japanese magazines, knew about the upcoming 15th Anniversary Betamax and waited for that instead.

lingyi 03-23-2022 07:33 PM

@Closecall

IMO, I would get a Japanese ED-Beta machine. While not cheap, they're a relative bargain, assuming they're in good working order at <$1000. You'll pay at least twice that for a SL-HF2100. The only other Betamax with S-Video.

There's always the what else could I have done better that would nag at me! This is the main reason I gave up on capturing a long time ago and have learned to be patient as almost everything commercial worth having eventually was/is released on better quality video. I'm very patient. Only recently was a Blu-Ray version of a movie from my favorite Taiwanese actress released. Prior to that, the only copy I had was a VCD from 25+ years ago!

FYI, in my Betaphile years, I'd wait until the top models dropped below $1000 before I got them. This was the main reason I never got a SL-HF1000 or EDV-9500. They never dropped below $1000. <GRIN>

cbehr91 03-23-2022 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews (Post 83649)
Mr Glasser is on my list of people to try and contact for an interview, I do not know if he's still around.

Ray is very much still around. He's posted videos to his YouTube channels in the past week.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:03 AM

Site design, images and content © 2002-2022 The Digital FAQ, www.digitalFAQ.com
Forum Software by vBulletin · Copyright © 2022 Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.