Top edge of frame bending on Kramer SP-11D?
I am starting to do some captures of old VHS tapes.
since this is a hobby without a budget, I've collected most hardware from friends where it was available. so, the videosignal goes like this: Panasonic AG-7500 (or) Sony SLV-SE810K -> Kramer SP-11D -> DV Camera (or) Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB the problem I am facing is that sometimes (unpredictable) the top edge of the frame is bending to the right. if I exclude SP-11D from the scheme - there is no such a defect. here's a link to comparison frame: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/25240 here's a link to video showing how it happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK5bSHbLJPo the tested tapes were different: homemade videos, TV recordings, VHS copies. defect appears on the same tape more often on second, thierd, fourth and so on capture. swapping composite and S-Video as input does not make the difference. Kramer SP-11D itself was luckely obtained as brand new and never used before. model without the rack mounts, during the boot it displays "30" on it's screen - I suppose it is the version of firmware. playing with it's settings as well as DIP-switches on it's back did not gave any positive result. so I wonder: is there something I can do about this sort of problem? may be I have to include another pass-through device in the scheme before Kramer, like DMR-ES10? I supposed Kramer's TBC function intended to prevent the bending but not causing them, so I'm puzzled... |
Those VCRs, and that TBC, is not suggested gear. Why? Problems, including the sort of issues you're seeing. It's not intended for a wide variety of consumer sources. Those ancient editing decks were for in-studio S-VHS work, while the TBC expected clean (or pre-cleaned) input.
I'm not sure why you bought those. Suggested workflow is - late 90s / early 00s S-VHS decks with line TBC, JVCs or Panasonics, specific models - DataVideo/Cypress type TBCs, very few specific others What you have there is early 90s deck, with broadcast rackmount TBC. |
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all in all, partially I became pretty happy with V/H shifting and other editorial results from Kramer. I am also in the future will need to do SECAM transcoding, hoping Kramer to do that task as well. Quote:
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and the the price is a rocket in the sky... Quote:
I've seen you mention that model sometimes on forum as a AVT-8710 clone which you consider good. I may try to obtain one, but that's not clear and will take a long, long time... |
The avt/cypress and datavideos things don't really help all that much with this issue afaik, might be better off with a ES10 or other dvd recorder for tapes which exhibit this, or some other device with line-TBC/jitter correction.
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Judging by how well the area below head switch is converted in the image without the kramer it looks like whatever is used to capture has a solid line tbc function though, presume it's a dv device rather than the blackmagic. |
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But it is a line timing issue, first lines in frame. While frame TBC mostly cleans the signal, tearing can be prevented if the TBC quality is good, and the post-VCR output didn't have the issue. And in this case, it sounds as if the not-suggested rackmount Kramer is causing it. Every now and again, somebody argues with me about rackmount TBCs not being the proper tool for conversions tasks, and this is a perfect example of why it is (and the arguers are wrong). Quote:
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OP have you tried removing the TBC from the chain? Did the flagging disappear? You can't troubleshoot a defect with stacked components, that's not how troubleshooting works, If you want help you're going to have to go onto the process of elimination and provide samples.
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@Latreche OP have you tried removing the TBC from the chain? Did the flagging disappear?: Quote:
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I was able to locate and get hands on DMR ES-10 from a friend.
I was also able to get for testing another SP-11D, which is an old one (with firmware v.1.5) and was higly used backdays. now I've had some time for this my hobby and made a comparison video with 6 variants of gear showing the results of VHS capture via S-Video in PAL-B: 1. Panasonic AG-7500 → DV Camera → VirtualDub 2. Panasonic AG-7500 → Panasonic DMR-ES10 → DV Camera → VirtualDub 3. Panasonic AG-7500 → new Kramer SP-11D v3.0 → DV Camera → VirtualDub 4. Panasonic AG-7500 → Panasonic DMR-ES10 → new Kramer SP-11D v3.0 → DV Camera → VirtualDub 5. Panasonic AG-7500 → old Kramer SP-11D v1.5 → DV Camera → VirtualDub 6. Panasonic AG-7500 → Panasonic DMR-ES10 → old Kramer SP-11D v1.5 → DV Camera → VirtualDub https://youtu.be/xS9zy2CAXg8 the Kramers behave differently: the new one (v.3.0) is stable but has the bending appear sometime. the old one (v.1.5) has frequent frame jumps, sometimes loosing half-frames, and has framedrops. so I am wondering: is there any sort of "service manual" available for Kramer SP-11D ? there are lots of variable resistors/capacitors on it's motherboard that may be placed there for a fine tuning. Quote:
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If you are using a DV camcorder as a digital convertor shouldn't you be using WinDV or SClive instead of VDub since the signal is DV? From the samples in the link I don't see the Kramer doing you any favor, just ditch that P.O.S.
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The ES10 is pre-cleaning with line TBC and non-TBC frame sync. The sync (frame timing) can still suck, cause drops, so that mild correction is being handled by the Kramer. But you also now have the damage from ES10, especially luma hotness for PAL. There's another recent thread here when a user is trying to make a custom device to fight the luma gain. Not sure if he's successful yet. |
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I noticed that since DV-Cam provides straight (uneditable) digital stream - there is no difference in result depending on capture software. Quote:
but from the other side: there were lot's of VHS tapes backdays that were brought to TV stations/studios and played flawlessly on the air or edited into the final cuts. I was working in the videostudio in middle 90th and we've had a Panasonic TBC in a rack (don't remember the model as it's gone ~25 years ago on studio closure), and I perfectly remember that we had sometime to fine-tune it's controllers on the back in case smth goes wrong with framesync on the output. since it is professional equipment - it has to handle this sort of problems. Quote:
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I don't think vdub captures DV the same way sclive or WinDV streams it, Streaming is 1:1 digital transfer, Capturing is converting DV to whatever parameters you set and often destructive or lossy.
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The whole workflow is messy. :unsure: |
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http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ntiometer.html |
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there was Adobe Premier as well, which I dropped also. =) Quote:
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it could be right for the RAW stream which comes from BlackMagic (for the purpose of disk space saving), but in current case I see that the only stream that comes out from the source is properly packed DV. so I save it AS-IS for later long term editorial with AVS. the load of processor during capture is close to zero. It is the same as, for example, capturing IPTV/Satellite, or even "fishing" Sat-internet - the stream has to be recorded unchanged, and there is a loss and mess otherwise. |
Unfortunately that's not how Vdub works, it is not a DV stream software, its a capture software, unless you install the DV codec in vdub, it is not going to output DV, even if it has a DV codec I wouldn't trust to perform as WinDV or SClive.
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Otherwise correct. :salute: |
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