Setting ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 audio levels?
 

I have been digitizing some old VHS tapes and some of them have pops here and there which I fear might be audio clipping from the recording and not actually present on the tape. My workflow is JVC S-VHS -> AVT TBC -> ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 -> Windows XP machine -> VirtualDub. I have tried changing the audio level in VirtualDub but it doesn't seem to make a difference. The system setting takes me to the Windows menu for the built in soundcard but it is at zero because I'm not actually using it.

Is there a way to bring the level down on the capture device? I can't seem to find any way to adjust it.

Thanks!

I am new to this forum but my first thought is to use an external audio mixer (you can get a cheap 4 channel mixer on Amazon for like $20) and use that before the capture card to adjust your audio levels.

I had actually considered that, but bringing in another piece of hardware is not ideal. I would prefer to find a software solution before going that route, if possible. Thanks!

I’ll preface this with the fact that I am not an expert as I indicated earlier, but I believe that if your audio levels are exceeding the range of the capture card and are therefore clipping, your audio signal is already degraded before it gets to the software layer so I think you would have to either lower the audio level coming from your VCR, or use an external volume control/mixer to bring down the levels to where the A/D on the capture card can see the whole signal. You could also try bypassing the TBC for the audio which I have seen lordsmurf recommend in other threads but I don’t know if that necessarily has anything to do with the volume levels. Good luck 👍

My ATI TV Wonder 600 USB requires tweaking a registry value to adjust the volume. Is it the same for this card?

Possible, though not as likely with this card. The audio processing of the AIW USB isn't as nice as the TBSC paired to internal AIW, but it's still superior to most everything else.

Almost all USB capture cards have fixed audio values, generally at a proper 50-60% range. The cards wanted to protect users from themselves (aka, user error, input too loud).

Correct. :congrats:

I'm not sure I'd want to use a $20 mixer. I have a Tapco (essentially same as Mackie, Behringer), and it was under $75 back when I got it (20+ years ago?). Mine has multi EQs. These days, $60 gets the name brand mixer, small foorprint unit, minimal 1-2 EQs. Budget to $100 or so, and you get at least 3-6 EQs.

There isn't one. The audio must be handled externally, pre-ingest.

Correct.

Only the TBC-1000 has audio input, as part of the distribution amp VP299. It should never be used, possible degrade of audio for non-split. It should be passed, not processed or attenuated in any way. Bypass audio from VCR to capture card.

^ This isn't a concern here, as he's using a Cypress model TBC, video in/out only. :wink2:

It does not.

Not for this card.

Whatever the card is outputting, VirtualDub is recording with peaks right at 0db for the most part. I have found some evidence of overmodulation, but I can't tell if that's from the source tape or not. I think some of the pops I am hearing are from the tape, but when I run the same segment twice they don't always appear in the same place or sound exactly the same. I don't have a good way of independently monitoring the audio with my current setup.

Is there a mixer you would recommend? I was looking at this one as it is small and doesn't require power. It's passive so no EQ, but I am trying to keep things as simple as possible.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...OLL3J3K6&psc=1

Thanks!

BTW, also realize that speakers can cause pops. So what are you using? Realize that most people think they have "good speakers", but few actually are. What matters is the response curve. I use near-reference Monsoons still in top condition, never abused.

"doesn't require power" is almost never good. Ironically, the reason is various feedback. I guess it has no shielding like powered units. You can try it, but it may make issues worse. I have little to no faith in that sort of item.

I use this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GRLV7XG/

The pops are definitely present on the recording and not coming from the speakers. I can see them visibly on the spectral view of the waveform when I open it up in Adobe Audition. I can even "heal" them. They don't exclusively coincide with the the peaks at 0db either, so they could be the result of an old tape. It could just be that I'm looking for problems, and thus finding them. I'm still relatively new at this and finding my way.

That being said, it would be helpful to have some more control over the final audio levels that are being recorded in VirtualDub. This equipment is expensive and difficult to service, so when I run a tape I want to make sure it's done exactly right. Is there a mixer that you would recommend, since not the one I've been looking at? If need be, I can make space for something small in my setup if it would improve the audio quality.

Thanks!

I would rather you seek problems, then seek ways to fix, rather than be oblivious (including intentionally oblivious, aka head up ass, aka many Youtubers that give terrible "advice"). You care.

And now you're learning about possible fixes, as well as limitations (ie, cannot be fixed, either well or at all).

You're in a good place right now. :congrats:

Any Behringer or Mackie in the $60 range is small, and quality.
This is a tiny little thing, probably smaller than your TBC: https://amzn.to/3IhsUXh

I appreciate the advice and encouragement. Since I'm adding a component, I'm going to get new RCA cables as well just to make sure that cabling isn't an issue. Is there a particular brand you would suggest? I think I'm going to get everything from B&H because they're local. They seem to recommend Kopul. Thanks!

I use one of these:

https://www.ebay.com.au/p/902630581

I agree that B&H is great and have ordered from them a few times before. Personally I just bought some new cables from Amazon, from the "PigHog" brand, and am impressed with the quality of these cables: https://www.amazon.com/Pig-Hog-Cable-Black-PDRCA06/dp/B017Y499NS

Thank you for your input! I have been learning a lot reading these forums over the past week or so, especially your posts. I am setting up to digitize my parents' collection of video8 camcorder tapes (okay and somewhat of an excuse to build a home multimedia studio) and got:
- Mackie 802vlz4 audio mixer
- ATI AIW 600 USB capture card,
- ES10 DVD recorder for TBC-ish passthrough
- CCD-TRV615 and DCR-TRV530 camcorders for the actual playback.
(ebay for everything except the mixer to save $$)

I couldn't find a "reasonably priced" TBC anywhere, and finally realized it was going to cost a lot, so I bit the bullet and ordered the Singmai sm03 video processor for use as a full frame TBC. We will see how it works. No offense intended to you or anyone on the marketplace, but I figured in this price range I would try a new product vs an older used TBC. Maybe I will regret this decision. The sm03 outputs SDI and I opted for the magewell pci-e SDI capture card that Singmai sells as an optional accessory with their product. I plan to compare this vs using the ES10 for passthrough into the AIW USB. I thought I struck gold when I found the Datavideo TBC100 on Omegamultimedia.com, only to have them inform me that this product was no longer available (as I feared). I found a Cypress CTB-100 on Neobits.com for ~$550 but given your numerous posts expressing iffy quality with these which I understand to be equivalent to the black AVT8710 boxes, this also pushed me toward the newer but less well known sm03.

I also likely have some VHS tapes to digitize so I found a JVC SR-VS30U on ebay that says the MiniDV drive eats tapes but the VHS side works, and figure that should be perfect.

Still waiting for a few things to come in but I feel much more prepared to get the best video quality from these tapes vs my original plan of a $20 composite capture card before I stumbled on this forum. And good knowing that there is a healthy secondhand market for these products if I decide to sell everything when done.
Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread..

This will be very, very interesting. Make sure you tell us how it goes, perhaps in a new topic.

Will do! I saw another thread where Lordsmurf was commenting on this device where someone else was basically asking the same question I had "is this another potential TBC" and it looked like nobody had an answer. Singmai told me last week that they were going to start building another batch of the sm03 on 7/11 (yesterday) and had to order the pci-e card (I only bought it through them since it was cheaper than buying separately) and I haven't heard back since, so hopefully they ship it out soon. I'm new to all of this but have experience with VirtualDub from many years ago so I'll have to figure everything out once I get all the hardware but I'm looking forward to it.

I highly doubt that will be the outcome. So far, it seems to be just another SDI converter. TBC is also never claimed, but merely "enhancer and synchroniser." The problem here is that it can mean almost anything, especially in performance, especially for consumer analog sources. Oversampling gets lots of attention, but historically that's always a gimmick. Some of the other claims are also dubious, statements I've seen on devices for 20+ years now (and most are often nonsense). I'm not paying $1k to test another paperweight. If they want me to try it, they can send one here.

ATI 600 USB is not ATI AIW USB. Different cards.

Most sites have ghost listings, especially anything from DataVideo.

Anything sold new will be guaranteed defective.

Well, you're sort-of on the right path. I think you're making the mistake of getting lost in the tech, mostly due to budget/cost-cutting, as opposed to buying and using the tech (and reselling when done) that is known to give results. Experimenting is fun and all, but not when you have a task to complete.

That makes sense. In my email to Singmai I told them I was looking for a full frame TBC/synchronizer and they told me this is "exactly what their product is for". So of course that's from the people selling the thing, and will have to be determined in testing, to your point of "my toaster has a TBC if it says it on the box". I saw your post expressing this concern in another topic and ordered it understanding I was taking a risk into uncharted territories.
Thank you for the clarification. I realized my PC that I revived for this has a PCI (non express) slot, so that should open up my options if I have issues with the hardware I have now.

At least my instinct here was right. ;)

This is a fair point. Fortunately this is a task for my family with no rush or immediate deadline, on tapes which seem to be in good shape. I'm not going to attempt to counter this, since you're hitting the nail on the head here, given I've been lost in tech most of my life ;)

I know this wouldn't cut it for a professional/client job, but this project started when a coworker at a previous job gave me a great condition Sony video walkman GV-S50 a few years ago, which allowed me to play these family tapes for the first time since the camcorder they were recorded on broke who knows how long ago. My father who wants the video on DVD was happy with the quality of video output from the GV-S50 composite out onto his 40 or 50" (I forget) plasma TV.

So while I know this is a point you discredit in the articles on this main site talking about "what makes a professional", the bar for acceptible quality here should be easy to beat given what I have now + I see it as a learning opportunity (and expensive hobby) for myself.

I need to finish the opposite article "What makes a home/hobby workflow?" because it's not random items. In recent times, "I'm not a professional, so I don't need XYZ" has come up. But that's also not true. The article does touch on non-pro (which FYI, is how I started into video, video is merely my unintended/accidental career). There is a wider range for home use, lots of caveats need to be listed, between bottom-barrel options (cross fingers, pray), mid grade, and pro gear. But not random, not whatever Amazon has for $1 on Prime Day.

But you know this. Mostly posting for other readers that may stumble into the thread and read. :wink2:

I would be interested to read that article. I appreciate your honest take on all thing A/V since while of course myself and others will attempt to justify less than professional gear as "acceptable" mostly to ourselves as an excuse for not being able to afford or for not selecting the right gear, everyone would prefer to have the best setup possible given the opportunity.

I came across a number of threads on other websites/forums from people complaining that "I don't want to hear about needing a TBC, most people can't afford a $1500 device" and found that advice less than helpful .

Part of that is the point. Things like JVC S-VHS VCR with line TBC is not "the best", nor really "professional", though pros do use them. Consumer source gear like TBC-1000 also isn't "the best", merely costly (but also has the best resale, so buy it, use it, resell it). All of that is just at the higher end of a home/hobby type setup.

Part of said article will discuss resale, as casual consumer have this idea of buy it, put it in a drawer, and eventually trash it. A problem mentality created by our "disposable" society and economy.

As much as myself and probably others on this forum like to DIY, this is probably the best argument in favor of using a professional digitization service. I don't see prices listed for your services, but assuming something like Legacy Box is decent, it's hard to beat $20/tape unless you have hundreds of tapes to convert. But then on the other end of the debate, if you look at the reviews of one of the popular sub-$200 "one click converters" on Amazon, people seem to be happy with "average" quality, or maybe more accurately, they assume that's just the best available. Sort of like how back in the days of playstation 2 and Xbox 360, it always bothered me when friends would plug in the composite video cause it "just worked" even though the game console and TV both had the substantially better quality component video in/out!

This is really a shame with how things work today. All we ever hear about is "sustainability" yet it seems every product is designed to be disposable. I have the opposite problem of never wanting to throw anything away. "I could use that power cord or indicator lamp from x broken device some day!"
Also why I have the feeling that if I come across a recommended TBC in the sub-$1000 range that I'll buy it and not want to resell it unless I really need the cash & have moved on to a completely different project.

I know this is really going off topic but for the TBCs you have for sale in the marketplace, the Pixie and Cypress 8120 (composite only), would you recommend either of these for my video8 project, or just experiment with what I have for now until something else pops up? I assume composite only is no good since y/c has a sharper image, but not sure on the Pixie since I'm not using a VHS source.
Thanks again for your time & help.

Bad assumption. Once you get past the fake glowing reviews, it's not pretty stuff. Lost tapes/photos, damaged, etc. Pathetic, really. The quality of work is below what you could do on your own with minimal quality gear. That's why "professional" services are often anything but. It's why DIY is so often the path taken.

It's actually impossible, unless you're giving it minimal quality of care. Whatever goes in comes out, quality or not -- even when it would have been easily corrected with care, or proper hardware. That was the price of transfer 20 years ago, not now, unless you're getting crap in return.

Amazon reviews are worthless. As I've said before, there have literally been dangerous catch-on-fire items that get 4-5 stars. Amazon is where you buy stuff, not get an idea as to the quality.

That's it. And lack of research on their part (ie, not seeing sites like this one) equates to lack of knowledge as to what's possible.

Sustainability is sometimes an earnest goal, sometimes just a checkbox. I've worked at places where it was the latter, and the "sustainability" was 100% pure bullplop on paper only. Nothing is ever 100% clean, it's give and take. Batteries require excess resources to create, and are generally dangerous. Electricity burns carbon. It's really a least-worst scenario. What's amusing (in a dark way) is when items are created disposable "sustainably" (break down), but reuse would have been 100% better. For example, I reuse cardboard boxes, but cannot do so when the box is flimsy "recyclable" crap. Ironic, huh? Oh, and no recycle available here, so it's trashed 100%, landfill material.

Composite gets a bad reputation because the devices are crap, not the connection. Composite video is "composited video", meaning the Y/C is merged to a single signal. Composited. That doesn't have to be overly soft, have artifacts, luma/chroma offset, look bad, etc. But often does, probably due to limited off-the-shelf composite kits/chips. However, it can look decent, especially if latter processing to streaming. Not overly soft, not massively damaged by dot crawl, etc. Those devices generally cost more, of course, not the $100 VCR or video game system -- aka, TBCs.

The Pixie can be fine with Hi8. Only potential concern is any blue screen at footage breaks, if any. This is something I could test if anybody seriously wanted it. Or, better yet, just disable camera blue screen, and done. My focus with it has generally been VHS.
- Note: Disable blue screen does not apply to JVC S-VHS VCRs.
- Note: Unlike bad black AVT-8710, no random frame sticking. Only similar issues, not the same.
- Note: This ONLY applies to the pair of units I had available in the marketplace (1 left), and both myself an others tested others awful unusable Pixie units. Aside from this unit, I'd suggest folks stay far away from these, and I'm doing so as well.

Wouldn't you use your Singmai for this?

Correct, that's the plan. But given the fact the device hasn't been shipped or arrived yet, I was considering a secondary TBC to have 3 total options (Singmai, ES10, other TBC) to play with. I admit it's a bit ridiculous, but should be fun experimenting. :yahoo2:

Well that clears up their insanely low pricing!

This is correct in many cases, and I know that for a fact because I've gotten a number of free products in exchange for writing 5 star reviews. It was never explicitly said that it had to be a 5 star review, but I can only assume I wouldn't have been sent the free product if I gave a 1-star review. But with the particular one click device I'm talking about, it was clear that a number of the reviews were from real people (including one guy who claimed to be a tech guy and attached photos of him using the device).

No disagreement here. In terms of recycling, from what I understand, it's only practical to recycle metals since the costs involved in recycling papers and plastic cost more. But re-use is the best way to recycle. My state landfill captures the methane produced by decaying waste to generate power used to run the facility, and I think that's also smart. But it's frustrating when quality is heavily compromised in the name of "going green". My local big box store used to have super thick plastic bags which required no double bagging and which I reused as trash bags. They switched to paper which means I now double bag every bag since they rip otherwise. And they're not as good as trash bags since they can't hold liquids. Same with paper straws that aren't completely sealed so you can hardly use it, and that get soggy. And on a broader level, the current crisis in Sri Lanka where government policy banning the use of chemical fertilizer (among many many other poor decisions such as overspending) has led to food shortages amid a ton of other problems leading to the current violent protests. Same with issues in the Netherlands. There is a smart way to achieve "sustainability", and I'm all for reducing pollution, and increasing efficiencies. But forcing down decisions without accounting for the very real costs is a terrible policy, and I'll leave it at that ;)

Just to go back to mixers, I like Berringher kit for what it is, it's cheap and cheerful and it's pretty robust. Hum and mains isolation is something we've battled for years though, that's UK market models though.

Mackie (which personally I would consider a level above Berringher) is usually built from better materials. We still rent out Onyx series to some fairly prestigious customers. Whilst being basic they're usually of far better construction internally. We are still have a classic 16 channel Onyx (1800?) on the books that has been gigged non stop since 2009ish for live mixing, or VOG and beyond the odd clean and to pick the fag ash out the sliders it's been faultless.

It depends on the market but either Yamaha for near field or Tannoy Reveal. Reveal are now available in a more wallet conscious version and are astonishingly accurate.

The new Berringher digital series (model number escapes me) are wonderful, we've been blown away by them in small/medium live setups.

As a radio presenter though, a classic analogue Sonifex is still my standard; that's an apples to oranges comparison though.

These are just general notes, I'm mobile so will reply fully of this is an ongoing issue - audio is something one of my businesses know about to say the least. My business partner is a producer/engineer for one of the global 'big boys' when it comes to broadcast audio and restoration.

There is great kit out there though at modest prices, but I'd just caution the basic 8 channel Berringher for 'delicate' work.

Yes, Mackie/Tapco better than Behringer.

I got lucky back around 2006. Mackie had just bought back the Tapco name, and released several mixers with that branding. I had a reward (free money, $50) at an AV store, didn't see much of interest, or even much of anything for only $50, so I used it for the new Tapco, paying about $10 out of pocket. I figured if it sucked, I'd just resell it, I'd profit off my $10. These days, comparable Mackie/Tapco are about $100.

Tapco was supposedly the "budget" brand of Mackie, but users were confused about what exactly was budget. It performed better than Yamaha, Behringer, arguably even some older Mackies, for units of the same approx I/O and features.

Here's a good review from the time:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/thread...-mixer.210816/
https://gearspace.com/board/low-end-...-mixer-ok.html

Never heard of Tapco but usually that's not the level we work at - I'm sure they're good.

I could 'willy wave' here but that's not helpful.

Few have had an event or broadcast ruined by the model or mixer - unless it's of toe-curlingly bad quality.

We've produced content for the BBC on Zoom H1s and Berringhers.

I stand by previous remarks though, a good detailed set of headphones is still the first line of tool.

Really? :ohmy:

Mackie ... Mr. Mackie ... started with the Tapco brand in the 70s. There was no Mackie brand yet, that came in the 80s. Mackie sold the Tapco name, then bought it back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie#TAPCO

Or speakers. Not everybody can tolerate headphones. :wink2:

Well, it really depends. The SingMai is not claiming TBC, and in fact may turn out to be like every other SDI capture card/box/appliance already in existence, in that it's essentially a pricey capture card. Whatever extra stuff happens internally may be weak, inadequate, or do little to nothing. I've not been impressed by anything I've seen thus far, and it really feels like deja vu. All hat, no cattle. Specs on paper don't mean anything to me.

I like that plan. You get a TBC(ish), an actual TBC (even if not best), and an unknown.

I'm rarely impressed when somebody claims to be a "tech guy". Within minutes, it's often very obvious that they have limited knowledge, especially historical (means over 10 years old, even just 3 or 5). Most actual "tech guys" are older, have decades of knowledge, across multiple areas. Not that capture cards have much of anything to do with tech, and many "tech guys" (actual or not) have limited understandings of video. After all, modern lawnmowers are tech too, right? Demonstrating knowledge is all I care about, not claims.

We'd sometimes take a truckload of metal (literally loading up a truck), and walk away with enough money to buy lunch at Taco Bell. So a free lunch, and a green good deed?

Look at what WM is doing, impressive, interesting.

I don't understand why people insists on straws. I never use them. Is it that hard to lift the cup to your mouth? Straws strike me as the #1 dumbest waste of plastic on the planet.

This is a simple case of being ignorant about things for which you nothing about. And yet, willing to ignorantly dictate to others. This is fairly apolitical, too. Some political parties attract more stupid than others, but there's plenty of stupid to go around.

I finally received the Mackie and some new cables and plugged it all in. While I am now able to better control the audio levels, it seems like the signal coming out of the Mackie is slightly quieter on the left channel than the right. I did a test with a tape I know to have mono audio and going direct into the ATI the audio is balanced, and out of the Mackie the left channel is slightly quieter. I panned it slightly to the left with the mono tape so the levels are more or less balanced now (it doesn't seem possible to get them to line up exactly), but I worry that I am doing something wrong here. What do you suggest?

Try different (and better) RCA cables.

I'm pretty sure it isn't the cabling. I tried two different sets of brand new cables, one Monoprice:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B002JTV7...roduct_details)

and the other Pig Hog:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B017Y449...roduct_details)

I've seen both brands recommended. I am getting the same result with each (left channel a little quieter), even though they both plug in and out of separate jacks on the Mackie. Additionally, when I take the rca cable out of the Mackie and plug it directly into the ATI I get a balanced signal. What do you think?

It could be the tapes, recorded signal.
It could be the VCR.

After capture, do you normalize the stereo channels independently? https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/normalize.html