Singmai SM03 review? (Sing Mai SM-03)
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Has anybody tested the Singmai SM03 and can they speak to its quality? I'm curious how the TBC/frame sync feature worked on this device.
I initially tried to revive an older thread on this topic but was prompted to start a new thread. I know a few users had expressed their intent to buy and provide a review about 6 months ago. I don't know much about SDI. The SM03 outputs 10bit SDI, but the Magewell PCIe/USB capture cards that bundle with the SM03 capture YUV2 4:2:2 at 8bit (I think). Do the bundled Magewell cards hobble the SM03's output? I know 10bit is overkill for VHS anyway but I'm still curious. I have an Aja IO HD (great product) and I think I could pass the SM03 SDI output into the IO HD to capture 10bit uncompressed (and eliminate the need for a Magewell bundled card). Any info would be appreciated--I'm thinking of biting the bullet and trying it out. https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html |
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Too many people see "TBC!" and want to buy one, most of whom don't see or understand details and fine print. But I do, and what I see gives me pause, squint my eyes, tilt my head. I'm not some all-knowing sage, but over and over again, I'm proven right. (And the few times I doubted myself, did it anyway, it was a mistake, lost time/money. I was correct all along, but wrongly gave into peer pressure anyway. That feeling sucks, being pissed at yourself.) Lots of devices make promises, far fewer deliver. I'd bet money this is the latter. The status quo remains fully unchanged. If you want a good TBC, get a good TBC. Not some "also has" devices that really has nothing, or at least nothing as you think it would/should/does. Remember, the Singmai device is really just an SDI converter, and those have downsides and limitations. And if you want an SDI workflow (which isn't really suggested for consumer source like VHS, is closed-loop, etc), then there are several options already. It's not a TBC, and based on the info in the user manual, does not contain the necessary chipset needed for true TBC whatsoever. A TBC is not a single chip on a board! Sometimes "biting the bullet" is simply playing Russian roulette. Put down the weapon, think it through. |
Thanks for the reply Smurf I appreciate it. I already have a TBC-1000 and it works great. My sense/first instinct is that a new product like the SM03 would offer at least SOME kind of advantages over my current kit that predates me in some cases. I’m hoping anybody who has tested the SM03 can speak to that. I mean, even if I keep the tbc-1000 in the chain and feed its output into the SM03–it could still convert that frame synched signal to SDI and (potentially) produce an image that is higher quality than other recommended capture gear?
Two more questions for you: options for SDI—are there any you recommend for consumer VHS/Hi8? I’m more interested in removing the TBC-1000 from the workflow. Are there any SDI devices that meet that need? Chipset—most interesting to me bc I have no idea here. What is the necessary chipset for TBC? And i assume the chipset in the TBC-1000 is an ASIC? The SM03 is FPGA—so wouldn’t a TBC function be programmed on it? This is what the manual says: Quote:
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What do you imagine would be different? Quote:
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Certain features, like NR, are already on-chip, and (as far as I can tell, based on what I know about TBCs, and these chips) it's nothing Singmai created, but rather just enabled (or didn't disable). This is why I'm not giddy like some folks have been. More impressive would have been actual chroma NR (cNR), not what exists there. That brings up another point. There's nothing "modern" to be had, when the cNR attempt just mushes together, and makes "mouse trails" (blended chroma). This is a rough on-chip option going back 25+ years, and should just be avoided for actual removal methods now in software (and for at least a decade now). It's a nifty SDI converter, few extra features, but not at all what some are thinking it is. Most of this stuff was built into early BV10 units 15 years ago now. You can probably expect subpar line correction (vs. in-VCR line TBCs, or ES10/15 type), mushy NR, non-fluid proc amp, potentially weaker frame sync. Of all those, I'd expect frame to be the only coin toss, 50/50 odds of being any degree of quality, but the rest are unlikely. If you still want to get it, fine. But lower your expectations. It's not the second coming of the wheel, or of sliced bread. It's mostly just a re-engineered (or reverse engineered) product that has existed for decades. And we already know how that went in the early 2010s, giving us "black AVT-8710" type flawed units. The Youtube example videos were wholly unimpressive, uninspiring. I always shake my head when I read text like "video source such as VCR" (pages 11, 14). It makes you wonder how much they truly understand video, or formats. I could go on, but that's enough. As already stated, I see things most people would miss, and it's not good. Be wiser, more discerning, don't be easily fooled. |
I have had several e-mail exchanges with Daniel the head of SingMai and he seem to know a lot about analog signal timing and VHS, While I haven't tried the SM03 personally due to its price and I already have similar devices from the late 2000's based on the SDI architecture, I gave him a suggestion about making it affordable for the masses but he never gave me a definitive answer if that will ever happen.
As I said I used similar devices and I posted samples over at VH comparing conventional capture to the S&W TBS800 and the difference is night and day, The first thing that stands out about such devices is the stability of the frame in terms of line timing, It is the most advanced line timing I've ever seen, even my JVC VCR line TBC could not perform that well, I wouldn't doubt a device made in the last two years such as the SM03 would perform more than the TBS800 given the amount of power the current processors have compared to 15-20 years ago. I do agree with LS on the price, But if you factor in how much analog TBC's cost nowadays that should be a great deal, Even the SDI devices from 10 years ago go for over a grand. If you do wish to proceed with a purchase please keep us posted with samples. |
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Or loan it to me for a deep test, PM me. |
Daniel from SingMai just sent me an e-mail with a link to a new video capture he's done with the SM03, The VCR is probably low end and despite being B&W and heavily compressed by YouTube it looks promising, I asked him for more tests.
https://youtu.be/C7sxn0FJOwk |
Interesting. Thanks for the update!
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You would have thought that somebody who has built a brand new TBC and is trying to flog it would be putting in more effort to promote it, not just pop a B&W on YT. I'd be bombarding people here with proper samples. Perhaps they're afraid of the scrutiny...
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Reply to questions about the SM03
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More than this, the SM03 provides broadcast quality decoding of NTSC and PAL using a 3D comb filter. Even in YC mode the comb filter operates to help remove artifacts from the image. The SM03 provides luma and chroma noise reduction. This helps remove the tape noise from VHS tape sources and it does this without visible trails or contouring. Lastly it provides chroma edge enhancement so improving vertical transitions, and it does this without overshoots. All of the above design is proprietary and the design is run on a single FPGA. It does not use a chip set or any off-the-shelf decoder from ADI or Philips or whoever. All the design is unique to SingMai. The SM03 was not originally designed for tape archiving or playback of analogue laserdiscs (that product is the now the SM10). Because of this we are working with two companies who are providing us with feedback so we can optimise the performance. Anyone who has already bought an SM03 gets a programmer so any improvements can be programmed into their SM03. I have been working in video for over 40 years and our customers include companies such as Lockheed, NASA and General Dynamics. I was principal design engineer at Snell and Wilcox and also worked designing video decoders at Philips and LSI Logic. If anyone wants to suggest video clips we can run through the SM03 I would be happy to do so. Also, if anyone buys the SM03 and feels it does not perform as they think it should we offer a full refund (less postage). Also, if anyone has any questions again I am happy to answer them. |
Well there you have it, This should clear some ambiguity.
Keep us updated with more tests on youtube. |
Thanks for the info, @SingMai. If I had the dosh I'd buy one. C'Mon Lordsmurf, go for it!
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If and when the happens, SingMai is welcome to contact me, send a product sample for extensive testing and review. You must understand my perspective here. For at least 15 years now, I've been told that various random devices were "also TBCs" or "contained TBCs", or that a product "will do __ in the next revision". The first was never accurate, and the latter never happened. If all those TBC conversations to date were a baseball game, it'd be a no hitter. Hence extreme skepticism now, unwilling to waste more time and funds on promises that don't deliver. But again, if and when. :) |
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I'm afraid we can't afford to send any more free units out. Two units are with two UK companies who are giving us feedback on its performance. Both companies archive thousands of tapes a day and have a variety of tape sources (including non-VHS). |
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Longevity is measured in decades, not years. Far too much gear has already failed us. Quote:
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@SingMai
I think I see the misunderstanding here. First off, the price of the device is not really a concern compared to other similar devices of the era that were selling for over $1000 15 years ago, if you account for inflation that's almost double, So let's put price talk aside for now, Also quality is no doubt there compared to Chinese devices. What Lordsmurf and other members are skeptical about is the performance of the device with a variety of consumer tapes including, VCR recorded tapes from TV and home videos recorded with budget camcorders, When they hear companies are doing samples it jumps to mind that those are professional archiving businesses, Those deal with mould and other tape problems, They don't deal with issues due to hardware quality or tracking errors due to a miss aligned camcorder or VCR, they don't deal with improper levels due to user error, they don't deal with Funai and RCA VCR's period. While most of the hardcore hobbyists don't see 500 euros expensive, they just don't see the need for such a device because they have an arsenal of them, I personally at some point had 4 BE75, 2 S&W TBS800 and a bunch of other consumer devices, But the masses who are potential buyers for your device need to see experiments and samples from within forums like this, They simply don't trust companies doing testing for them, That's not to say that if you provide enough convincing samples online highlighting the issues that the average Joe faces with his mom and dad VCR, I'm pretty sure there is a number of them want such a device knowing that consumer TBC's are like $2000 now if you can find one. Another issue, and I've already discussed it with you in previous e-mails is that people don't know what to do with an SDI port, If you tell them you need another device to connect to the computer they will see another expense and often they get confused about which one is the capture device the one next to the VCR or the one next to the computer, If you can find a way to put a USB or thunderbolt port or a port for an external storage device like a SSD that can save the uncompressed and uncropped 10/8bit 4:2:2 AVI that would be the device of the century. I did ask you before for a free sample to test and was hoping that I can pass it along to LS, Jwillis and other senior members here and at videohelp before it finds its way back to you or one of them buys it, but for now I'm very busy with some family paperwork, After I'm done I will order one and do an extensive testing with consumer made medias such as VHS, V8, Beta, PCM VHS and PCB Beta. Meanwhile feel free to send me over the cloud short lossless samples of tests to put them on my YouTube channel, I will do the proper de-interlacing and encoding so it wouldn't lose too much quality after YouTube processing. |
I have added another video clip for the SM03: https://youtu.be/YNzOLW0kydI
Thank you for the feedback. I will add some information about SDI and capturing the video to the user manual - I will post a link when I have done that. I will also post more clips. |
Thanks for that; that You Tube bitrate is very very (too) low. The display Ratio is also 5:4; I think should be 4:3. I'd suggest uploading to YT at at least a 1440x1080 at 4:3.
Could you post up a Lagarith or HUFFYUV lossless file (max 99mb) on the forum. |
I noticed that there is more blanking space around the frame compared to other capture devices, What native resolution the ADC samples at and what is the output resolution if different than the sampling resolution? Ideally the device should not be doing any resizing at all.
In future tests try some LP home recorded tapes, SP commercial tapes are more robust than home made ones. |
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