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-   -   PAL MESECAM capture options? (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/13192-pal-mesecam-capture.html)

Sunk 12-31-2022 11:49 AM

PAL MESECAM capture options?
 
Hi there, first time poster here, but have been lurking since about last year.

I found a box of old VHS tapes with various home videos and recordings of TV shows in 2020 while cleaning the cellar and wanted to digitize them while they're still in a playable condition. Unfortunately, I was immediately faced with certain problems.

My current VCR, LG WI42W, is quite dated now, since it's been in my family for over a decade and hadn't been in use until 2020 (before that, the last time it was in use was circa 2012). I tried playing one of the tapes, only to get a wobbly picture and noise. While it sufficed for some nostalgic binge watching, I quickly realized that transferring the tapes on that player would be a waste of time. Come 2021, I found this forum and the VCR buying guide, which, unfortunately, raised more questions for me than gave answers.

The player I have is one of those "multi-system" type of machines. It has 2 modes, from what I gathered: "PAL" and "MESECAM". After testing most, if not all, of my tapes, I came to the conclusion that the MESECAM mode would be the right one to use, as when set to PAL, picture becomes black and white.

There are a few recommended S-VHS VCRs available here which I'm considering getting sometime later this year (I've been eyeing an NV-HS1000 on a local Ebay clone), but I'd like to be assured and not waste my money. One major problem for me is that I cannot use this forum's marketplace. I'm located in Russia, which means I can only make purchases within the country. Anything that'd require a foreign transaction is out of my reach.

If there's anyone else who's in Russia or have had experience with MESECAM, I'd appreciate your advice.

latreche34 12-31-2022 05:02 PM

MESECAM in Russia sounds about right, However you will need to do more research about your tapes, I've seen this issue come up a lot lately about someone wants to digitize a bunch of tapes but has no clue what format they are, At least you have the right VCR to begin with in terms of tape identification, Just make sure the VCR is not doing any conversion. Are the tapes VHS-C or full VHS? The other issue is that not all capture devices are compatible with MESECAM so make sure your device has the capability to do so. I'm in the US and I bought a JVC HR-S7600AM from Russia, See if you can find one there. Good luck

Sunk 12-31-2022 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 88361)
MESECAM in Russia sounds about right, However you will need to do more research about your tapes, I've seen this issue come up a lot lately about someone wants to digitize a bunch of tapes but has no clue what format they are, At least you have the right VCR to begin with in terms of tape identification, Just make sure the VCR is not doing any conversion. Are the tapes VHS-C or full VHS? The other issue is that not all capture devices are compatible with MESECAM so make sure your device has the capability to do so. I'm in the US and I bought a JVC HR-S7600AM from Russia, See if you can find one there. Good luck

I actually happen to have both C and full VHS. I even have the adapter from Panasonic I've purchased in early 2022. Of course, only later I realized it's an S-VHS adapter, meaning my old LG had some serious struggles trying to play it. Oh well...

As for the full VHS tapes, from what I was able to gather watching them again earlier this week, almost all of them display color only in MESECAM, PAL usually resulting in B&W. Only about 1 or 2 tapes had color on PAL. And some of them don't have color in either mode. I'm not sure why. I asked my mom and she told me it might have been caused by the old TV she and my dad had at that time, which didn't display color.

I can see some old listings for that JVC player you mention, but at the moment all of them are inactive. I'll be monitoring Avito (think Russian Ebay) to see if one pops up.

latreche34 01-01-2023 01:14 AM

You may have some true SECAM tapes, If not they could be dubbed in the wrong color format from a smaller tape and resulted in a recording with no color, If that's the case those tapes are a lost cause. But can be digitized though in B&W if you don't mind lack of color.

Sunk 01-01-2023 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 88369)
You may have some true SECAM tapes, If not they could be dubbed in the wrong color format from a smaller tape and resulted in a recording with no color, If that's the case those tapes are a lost cause. But can be digitized though in B&W if you don't mind lack of color.

One other problem I might face is the lack of a compatible capture card. See, neither ATI AIWs, nor Tevion 600 USBs were ever officially sold here and I'm unable to import one. I was able to find products by some company called Beholder (http://www.beholdtv.com/products/) and it appears that many of them are commonly found on Avito. Would any of these work as a substitute for an AIW card? I've read that using random USB captures like EasyCap is discouraged, but here, it's either Beholder or a USB capture.

Sunk 01-01-2023 09:02 AM

2 Attachment(s)
(Sorry for double-posting, but I couldn't find the edit button anywhere)

I was able to find the manual for my LG VCR. If it doesn't lie, it supports two modes: PAL/MESECAM and NTSC (apparently it treats the former as one mode). I can't say if it's actually able to play NTSC tapes since I don't have any.

latreche34 01-01-2023 02:47 PM

Post a picture of the front of the deck, I though it says it plays back native SECAM.

Sunk 01-01-2023 02:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here you go. In case it's not clear enough, it says "PAL, SECAM - B/G, D/K | MESECAM | NTSC 3.58/4.43"

Sunk 01-02-2023 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 88361)
I'm in the US and I bought a JVC HR-S7600AM

I found a manual for HR-S7600AM online ( https://www.manualslib.com/manual/84...page=16#manual ) and, curiously, it says that neither TBC, nor DNR works when playing a MESECAM tape. Are you able to verify this? Since most of my tapes are MESECAM, I wouldn't want to get a unit with a non-functioning TBC. I understand the chances of you owning a MESECAM tape are slim since you're US-based, but it's also to do with the fact the format itself is rather obscure in not only the US, but the majority of Europe too.

lordsmurf 01-02-2023 03:24 PM

TBC isn't the only reason to own a JVC/Panasonic S-VHS deck. It's about tolerances, stability, transport, etc. That in itself causes less issues. But TBC is always best to use. If a non-TBC JVC for MESECAM is available, for less costs, use that.

Sunk 01-02-2023 03:40 PM

Alright. A tad unfortunate, of course, if I won't be able to find a good JVC/Panny player with TBC support for MESECAM, but I guess that's the cost of having to deal with obscure formats.

Might be unrelated, but I found this video showcasing a setup for transfer by one of the studios in Moscow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn5QyR99lXU

They use AG-7500 hooked into an ADVC-700. How would you rate it?

latreche34 01-02-2023 03:55 PM

That LG VCR is shady, First and foremost if it plays back NTSC3.58 it should say under the VHS logo 525/625 for native scan, but it doesn't. I don't know about TBC for MESECAM, but it makes sense since MESECAM and NTSC4.43 are not part of the VHS specification.

The link you posted is a capture to DV, not recommended in this forum.

hodgey 01-03-2023 05:12 AM

MESECAM recording is noted in the VHS specifications/standard.

I'm not sure why it lacks the 525 note under the VHS logo but otherwise vcrs in eastern block countries/se asia and Australia. were commonly PAL/MESECAM/NTSC 3.58/NTSC 4.43 capable in later years so it doesn't look unusual or anything. (really they're not that different to the "worldwide" vcrs like the samsung / panasonic ag-w2/3 / aiwa hv-mx100 just without the expensive digital conversion stuff).

As for MESECAM stuff with TBC, may have to go the dvd-recorder route for that as vcrs with TBC that was active on MESECAM playback seems to be less common. Seems on most or all JVCs TBC/DNR is not active for MESECAM, even on the french models. Some of the later Panasonics like the HS860 and SV121 don't note it's not active on MESECAM but no idea if that means it is or if it's just omitted.

Sunk 03-18-2023 06:43 AM

Hey, it's been a while. I have some updates since I've posted here last time.

First is that I was able to purchase a JVC HR-S7600AM at the start of this year. A solid unit indeed, works miles better than my old LG did. The latter I've decided to repurpose into a tape rewinder since, AFAIK, JVC's Dynamic Drum wears out pretty quickly if used too often. I've also purchased a Matrox MXO2 box since I couldn't find any AIW cards here.

Some problems still remain, however. The line TBC and DNR do a good job when I play one of my PAL tapes with home videos, but for any TV footage recordings, which were taped in MESECAM format, they refuse to work, so the manual didn't lie indeed.

Another issue I still don't know how to solve is B&W video. MXO2 is able to read PAL, but not MESECAM, so the footage results in either B&W or greenish-pinkish lines. I've recently ordered myself a DMR ES-10 to act as a passthrough stabilizer for transfers (I've read it's not a "TBC" the way it's generally known here and over on Videohelp, but there's not a whole lot that can be done when you're dealing with a quasiformat like MESECAM), so I was thinking, maybe it could also act as a signal converter? From what I understand, PAL models output PAL signal, meaning there might be a chance of MXO2 being able to read colors proper.

themaster1 03-18-2023 09:07 AM

You need a model that can transcode mesecam to pal. But in practice it don't work that well, depending on the tape condition, i did my little experiments with secam not mesecam. So the next best solution imo is to hunt a dedicated transcoder.

hodgey 03-18-2023 09:25 AM

It might be worth trying to manually select MESECAM on the VCR if you have issues, the auto-detection of that isn't 100% reliable.

The MXO2 has component input so whatever the ES10 outputs, as long as it has support for SECAM input which at least the PAL one do, you can use the component output and not have to worry about PAL/SECAM differences on the capture side. Let us know how it plays out when you get it. I've not done much with SECAM personally so I don't know whether it's works as well as it does with PAL/NTSC. Assuming themaster1 has some more insight into that. (Odd that the MXO2 would lack SECAM support though as pretty much any video decoder IC from the last 20 years should support that.)

Sunk 03-18-2023 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1 (Post 89655)
You need a model that can transcode mesecam to pal. But in practice it don't work that well, depending on the tape condition, i did my little experiments with secam not mesecam. So the next best solution imo is to hunt a dedicated transcoder.

What exactly do you mean by a transcoder? I wasn't able to find any dedicated transcoders around here. Got any example models? Many Russian VHS enthusiasts recommend using a Behold TV PCI(e) card, which is a locally-produced TV tuner card which is able to read SECAM. I've actually made a thread about it. Depending on the model, they use either a Conexant chip or an SAA chip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 89656)
It might be worth trying to manually select MESECAM on the VCR if you have issues, the auto-detection of that isn't 100% reliable.

The MXO2 has component input so whatever the ES10 outputs, as long as it has support for SECAM input which at least the PAL one do, you can use the component output and not have to worry about PAL/SECAM differences on the capture side. Let us know how it plays out when you get it. I've not done much with SECAM personally so I don't know whether it's works as well as it does with PAL/NTSC. Assuming themaster1 has some more insight into that. (Odd that the MXO2 would lack SECAM support though as pretty much any video decoder IC from the last 20 years should support that.)

I should've mentioned it before, but my MXO2 is an LE model, which has both component and S-Video I/O. No matter how much I tinkered around with it though, whenever I select S-Video, Matrox's tool always locks it on to PAL. Once my ES10 arrives, I'll try passing through it and then report the results.

latreche34 03-18-2023 06:38 PM

You just need a capture card that supports MESECAM.

Sunk 03-18-2023 06:42 PM

Well, the only option in this case might be the Beholder TV card, as I can't find anything else that'd support MESECAM.

latreche34 03-18-2023 11:27 PM

Some do but since it is not a VHS format they tend not to list it in the spec, However I read few years ago that to get those pseudo formats captured by the card is to set the resolution, frame rate and color under format (PAL/SECAM/NTSC) independently to get the card into the pseudo mode, Unfortunatly most drivers don't work under modern OS's so even if the card supports it your capture software may not give you the option to enter the mode due to lack of driver support.


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