Panasonic AG-1980P, Kona LHi, best practices?
Hello! I have a Panasonic AG 1980p that I'm going to capture via S Video into a Kona LHi.
1. Is AJA Control Room a suitable capture software? I plan to capture 10-bit ProRes 422 at source resolution/interlaced/framerate (525i 29.97 is what AJA Control Panel shows when I select "follow input"). Thoughts? 2. Still wrapping my head around the different audio settings outputs on the AG 1980p (Linear vs RCA vs HiFi etc). Any recommendations on what outputs or settings to use? 3. Kona LHi has XLR inputs, should I just a RCA to XLR cable or do I need something else (converter box etc). Thanks! |
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#1 the ART CleanBox Pro [https://artproaudio.com/product/clea...el-converter/] He highly suggested this and that's what I got and the thing is awesome. Build quality, sound quality, all the little details, just excellent. I'm a stickler for QA and this is a purchase I've been extremely happy with. #2 If I couldn't get that, he said to grab a Rolls unit instead and that would be fine. Can't remember model info for that but if you end up needing it I can ask him again. |
I'm not sure if all balanced audio connectors behave the same way or not but on the BE75 I was able to just short the ground and cold leads together (according to the user manual) and raise the gain in the audio menu and got away with using a balanced to unbalanced converter box. I would say give it a try if the Aja Machina has an audio gain feature.
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Okay cool, I'll check it out. Thanks
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Wow, really appreciate all of the insight @Murmoy97. Thank you.
The deck does have a TBC built in so I was just going to use that...how important is an external TBC? |
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And on that note, your question "how important is an external TBC?" is going to depend on what you're doing. I spent some time in the beginning trying to find alternatives for everything just because that's what I like to do, research, try to find things that may have been overlooked and can be useful tools. I spend lots of time solving problems for work so it's just my nature to be curious about what's possible. At this point I've pretty much spent my max amount of free time for experimenting, and I'm trying to just stick with what I've got and leave it. From the beginning I decided that if I'm spending this amount of time doing captures of things that are important to others like their home videos, then (to me) that entails being serious about the highest possible quality within reason. So based on that (i.e. my perfectionist tendencies), I decided to only accept VHS tapes from family, friends, and anyone else who used at least a decent camcorder, only normal speed recordings, and a new tape recorded on once and then put back in its sleeve and stored in decent conditions. Again, lots of nuance going on. I have at least one family member who used a cheap VCR and an easycrap USB and was very excited to show us some absolutely horrific quality videos that they thought were incredible. And that's completely fine, I'm happy their project was a success and got results that pleased them, because that's what matters. In the end, if you're serious about getting the best possible quality then I think the ancient wisdom handed down by on this site by LS still holds true: [1] use a recommended deck with line TBC [2] use a recommended external frame TBC [3a] use a recommended analog capture method (hardware+software) [3b] if using SDI out from the frame TBC instead of analog, then it's different because that digital signal is set by the frame TBC and is not affected by the capture hardware+software other than what capture file setting you choose, e.g. NTSC 8-bit YUV 4:2:2 525i 720x486 @29.97i uncompressed AVI But that's definitely not the most popular route that people choose. There are lots of other methods and reasons for people choosing one method over another. If a high-quality external frame TBC is an option for you -- Known good TBCs for sale: [https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mar...c-1000-a.html] I'd PM him and get his direct recommendations per exactly what you're wanting to achieve, what gear you're using, etc. Personally I wanted s-video input and SDI output, so he discussed a few options, and I chose the best one for me. I say any of those, and having at least something for frame TBC, is better than not having one at all. I also understand that it's not financially feasible for everyone. Again, the many nuances of all this. Quote:
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Incredible. Thank you for sharing.
Curious how you were able to capture AVI in AJA Control Room...I don't see that as a format option? |
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*** I just looked over my earlier replies to you. I apologize as I can see where I sort of merged my use of Machina and Control Room/Panel into a single generalization which is incorrect -- and in fact it's possible that I had only captured to AVI with Machina and had to use a different file type/codec/etc with Control Room. I also assumed your mention of ProRes 4:2:2 was due to your planning to capture in OS X/macOS, which may be wrong. I've only run Control Room in Win 7, so I may also have been making a bad assumption on exactly what capture file types and formats are even available since those can differ between OS versions with the AJA software. Essentially I made an info dump that I tried to keep relevant to your original post, but I did so without additional important details of your individual capture plan and setup. Quote:
Right now all my VHS equipment is packed up and stored and the workstation I dedicated for capturing and encoding is apart being cleaned at the moment. I can check once I have that reassembled. IIRC the software won't give access to all the settings unless I unpack one of the cards and put that back in as well. May also have to check the manual again and see what it says based on your specific setup. Quote:
Sometimes I just can't help myself from going overboard :laugh: |
@Townly, I'm on a very similar journey to yours right now: just got an AG-1980P trying to figure out best practices with a Kona card on a Mac. I have a Sonnet Tech Echo Express SE I (https://www.sonnettech.com/product/e.../overview.html) headed to me today, which will act as a PCIe breakout box for the Kona LHe Plus.
I'm just curious about your experience in terms of setting up and cabling and all that, and would greatly value your insight before I dig into setting up this workflow in earnest this weekend. Thanks! |
I ended up using one of my old 5,1 Mac Pro with PCI slots so I can't speak to the external sonnet box config.
I bought this Extron s-video Y/C BNC split cable to go S-Video from AG1980 into the Y/C analog inputs of the LHi card's breakout cable (or breakout box) —*https://www.ebay.com/itm/333961398545 I bought a custom-made Dual male RCA to dual male XLR cable (1FT length). To avoid interference, keep it short as RCA is unbalanced (my understanding at least). I ordered it from https://www.performanceaudio.com/. Service and cable were great. After a test capture, I noticed the image was desaturated a bit so sending out the AG1980 for repair here soon (capacitor replacement most likely, etc). As for TBC I might just roll with the built TBC or try out an ES10 and ES15... can't shell out 1-2k for a true frame TBC at this point. One step closer! |
It's a relief to see this list you have and that I have basically the same thing going on. I bought an AJA Y/C BNC split cable, and got a Rolls MB15b Promatch 2-Way Stereo Converter (https://www.rolls.com/product/MB15b) for the RCA to XLR balanced vs. unbalanced audio end of things for use with the breakout cable you have listed above. My workflow is maybe a bit more, I dunno, strange in that I want a signal path that not only goes one way for digital capture, but from the Mac back to the VCR in order to record dubs, original video mixtapes edited in NLE, that sort of thing. So I'm trying to get as close as I can to a true I/O workflow.
Additionally, I think I'll have to run a parallel signal path running to a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt model) that is strictly for streaming. The Kona doesn't play with OBS, and I figure if there are any picture deficits from the BM Intensity Shuttle, it won't really matter anyway since it's getting squeezed by Twitch's compression algorithm, and it's not being stored for posterity. I've used the Intensity Shuttle throughout the pandemic for capturing and streaming analog sources, and I've been reasonably pleased with the results, but I'm leveling up my workflow across the board, and its lack of dev support with new Mac architecture is going to be a major hindrance in the very near future, I surmise. I'm prowling for a solid frame TBC and proc amp, but that's all a matter of when finances meets opportunity. For the time being, I'm going to employ my ES15 I've used since the beginning of 2020. I want to retire it eventually for something designed to do the job the ES10/15 seems to do kind of accidentally, but it's been a solid workaround absent any of those pricier options. I'm glad to report that my AG1980 appears to be in good working condition, at least *fingers crossed* so far. Also curious to hear about how your repair experience goes. Might bump this thread this weekend if I run into issues, or maybe just to humblebrag if this all goes well! Thanks @Townly, and to all the posters in this thread and this forum, what an invaluable resource! |
Nice. Yea I went back and forth on the Rolls convertor but after a deep dive on Gearspace, it didn't seem necessary and could just be another piece of hardware/conversion in the signal chain.
I'm planning to capture in AJA Control Room. Seems to work well on my Mac. I thought my AG1980 was fine too until I compared it to another cheap VCR then I realized how washed out the colors were on the AG1980. I bought it used online so figured I should send it out for a tune up anyhow. Curious where did you find an AJA s-video to dual female BNC? I only saw male BNCs when looking a while back. The Extron seems to be solid though. |
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Depending on your output chain and settings from the Kona it can do a hardware downconversion to SD for you to input to the VCR's s-video input. Quote:
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Extron s-video male to BNC female Y/C split cable part # for 8"/20cm is 26-353-01 Revision G (exactly as you got) and 3' is 26-353-03 |
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Do you have any video capture clips you can post with the setup? I'm doing some SDI capture exploring and am curious what I should expect as far as results.
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I would only go by "what to expect" as far as purchasing known-good hardware from a proper source; installing and configuring known-good drivers and software according to a proper guide; etc. Those are variables that you can control and change as it suits your project specifications based on the information available. You can get a pretty good idea of what level of result to expect based on those decisions. Once you move into DIY and undocumented territory, there's no more reasonable guarantees unless you've got some sound hypotheses backing them up. I will say that my interest in SDI began when a professional explained to me how he used a workflow similar to mine. Then I consulted with lordsmurf and he suggested one specific high-end frame TBC he had for sale which would let me experiment with SDI and Y/C output from the frame TBC. At that point, if I've optimized every single part of the workflow to the best of my ability, then that's just about the end of the line for my individual "highest possible quality" obsession. Then, after all that, maybe you see a difference between the two, or maybe you don't. So it's impossible to say what to expect to see as a difference between those results. Sadly, it seems almost every case of SDI being involved in any type of analog capture on the internet has nothing to do with quality, definitely not competency, and is simply another "mOdErN" device (so it must be better!) being misguidedly slammed into an already terrible capture chain (not worthy of being referenced as a workflow). And I say that to encourage you to do it correctly. |
SDI is not modern, it was born with the standard that governs analog to digital video conversion, Rec.601. It was used on the first digital deck in history, the D1 format. Then when studios begun archiving analog tapes into D1 and later digital formats such as digibeta, SDI was the port of choice. Even though it supports up to 8k nowadays, it is still backward compatible with digital SD standard SMPTE 259M-C 270 Mbps.
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But by creating that argument you did bring up an interesting semantic point in what you said. adjective: modern "relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past." Quote:
:hmm: Anyhow, Quote:
Blackmagic Analog-to-SDI converter = device Serial Digital Interface = interface Quote:
Perfect for digitizing VHS (when done correctly). Quote:
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SDI was the port that defined the analog to digital conversion under the rec.601 standard back in the mid 80's that all modern consumer capture cards work according to, except the chinese fake devices and HDMI devices. |
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As the costs of traditional known-quality s-video based workflow gear has increased, the cheaper elements of society have sought out alternatives. Most of them are harebrained stupidity (example = cheap Chinese HDMI converters made for DVD players and video game consoles), but some are sound under the right conditions, such as SDI I/O broadcast/studio gear. Keyword, key phrase = "the right conditions", I highly doubt anybody here knows what NAB is/was (the Comicon of broadcasters, sort of like CES or defunct E3), or has attended it, but I remember when Blackmagic came to the broadcast scene 15+ years ago at NAB. It was interesting, and I was highly looking forward to adopting some of their higher end gear for both my work and hobby. I was so disappointed and disallusioned a few years later. BM gear, overall, truly sucks, for what we do (converting consumer analog SD to digital lossless). Nice on paper, PITA in practice. Now, 10+ years later, non-pro users are "discovering" these SDI (and HDMI, and BNC) items, often to their own detriment. Same for the "cheap" (relatively speaking) eBay-found used boxes from Snell & Willcox, Aja, or others. Trying to force analog consumer formats (home footage) into pro devices rarely works well. Now you know that, I know that .... but others don't know that. They see a few "new" (not really that new, just updated old gear) items on Amazon and B&H, and think everything about it is "new" or (even dumber) "the future". So the cockamamie idea of "SDI = new" hails from there. But as mrmuy97 pointed out, it's the device that is new, and seemingly never in a good way. It can use HDMI, SDI, or something that fell off a UFO, and it doesn't matter. The I/O wiring doesn't fix the crap device. People sort of back into SDI this way, then "discover" all the dreadful pizza box rack items from the 1980s, which is precisely where some threads get derailed or sidetracked. That's the real rabbit hole of video, but not the fun Bugs Bunny kind. |
People who bash SDI and compare it to HDMI just don't understand how it works, let's agree to disagree and move on.
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The benefit of 10 bit for VHS is something I have yet to do any testing on. However, the more bits you have makes "banding" issues less likely. I believe the technical term is "quantization artifact" where a variety of analog sample points will end up "rounding" to the same digital output which creates bands of the same color when it should have actually been more of a gradient. This is mainly evident in areas that are mostly the same color such as sky.
This does a better job of describing it but should also apply to capture bit depth: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/determining-display-panel-bit-depth.2424330/page-5 You should be able to tell if you feed the right gradient test pattern image into your capture process to see if it causes banding in areas with gradual color change. How much you'd notice a difference on most tapes is another question. There should be some scenes where a true 10 bit conversion would result in a visibly better result. This is limited to the lowest bit conversion in your chain though, and I don't think it's really documented at what bit rate that internal line TBCs actually convert at. |
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I'll toss my hat in the ring here to keep on topic. I've been using the Kona LHi for 2 years now and have been very satisfied with the results with Hi8 capture. Even more satisfying is that you can pick them up on eBay for less than $80 and the software: AJA Control Room is free. I'm now moving on to VHS capture and still evolving my workflow. Feel free to break down my setup and offer suggestions.
Video JVC-MV45 (TBC: ON NR: NORM) ->S-Video-> DMR-ES10 (Black Level Input: Brighter, Black Level Output: Darker NR: OFF) ->Component-> Kona LHi Audio JVC-MV45 ->RCA-> DMR-ES10 ->RCA/XLR unbalanced cable-> Kona LHi After reading this thread I just ordered the Rolls MB15b Promatch, mostly because I do find the low input gain an annoyance, not because I believe it will add any additional quality. My main complaints with this setup have been discussed here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/new...-dmr-es10.html Having to weigh the benefits of the frame sync with the luminance crunching is a necessary evil. The Kona LHi isn't particularly happy when capturing S-Video directly from the JVC-MV45, preview lag, frame doubling. The Kona LHi seems far more stable and happy when it receives video from the ES10 in either S-Video or Component. I'd like to get your take on the Control Panel settings. What color space and Analog Black levels are you all using? Attachment 17314 |
Returning the Promatch after this scathing review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...nverter.19865/
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Be careful when applying 7.5 IRE, For VCRs usually it is not needed, The VCR applies it to the output. That setting is put there for pro camcorders, as there are analog camcorders that apply 7.5IRE on their own, some don't and rely on the recording software. There is no need to capture in 10bit unless you're anal about restoration, I personally capture at 8bit, also because script software work on 8bit only.
This card is not built in any signal timing, that's why it relies heavily on your DVD recorder. For audio, It's a wise thing you used a balanced to unbalanced converter, it helps boosting the gain for low gain tapes. Personally I've managed to control the gain from the MediaExpress app with BE75 and shorting the left and right's ground to cold. |
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- You've seen a discernible difference comparing the same video capture in 8-bit versus 10-bit (many people would be eager to see such evidence) - You've heard a discernible difference comparing the same audio capture in 16-bit versus 24-bit (many people would be eager to see such evidence) I'm just being blunt about it, not attacking you. Capturing at higher quality than the original format could store is just wasting lots of space -- again, unless there's evidence to the contrary, which would be very interesting to see. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Quote:
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You invented 2 imaginary arguments for yourself. I never said "SDI is modern." I never made any comments about SDI versus HDMI. |
Fair enough, Though that last post was a general statement, I was not addressing anyone in particular.
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Should be pretty easy to actually test though, just needs something like a grey sweep pattern recorded onto a VHS tape vs sent directly by the pattern generator. If banding is seen with line TBC on, but not when it is off or when sent by the pattern generator, that would the internal line TBC having less bits of color depth than your capture card. I think 10 bit captures would bee more commonly part of ProRes capture chain, so I'll try doing a capture with that, 8 bit AVI, and DV (which is also 8 bit, though is also 4:1:1) so if anything I'd expect the most banding to occur with DV which may be why it gets a bad rap for being blocky under certain conditions. I haven't tried to see if QTGMC will deinterlace 10 bit ProRes, but I'll do that as well as part of the test. Agree doesn't make sense if your editing process requires a 8 bit for things like Avisynth. I've seen mixed postings about ways to get 10 bit to work and apparently it is possible with a lot of things. I think SD interlaced NTSC ProRes 422 with 10 bit depth takes up something like 15GB an hour from what I've read. By the nature of the test, should be pretty obvious if the ProRes 10 bit of a grey sweep patter is having bit depth reduced during the QTGMC deinterlace as banding would show up after the deinterlace. |
I'll pick up the CleanBox Pro and report back.
Great input all around. And great catch on the 7.5 IRE. Those are the settings I was hoping people would look over and steer me in the right direction. I went the overkill route on the Hi8 tapes because they were quite literally disintegrating after 1 play. So I did full bore on bit rate. I could probably roll both video and audio back now that I'm working with more reliable source material. As for QTGMC goes, I've been using it regularly via Hybrid with these ProRes 422 HQ 10 Bit captures and results are excellent for typical broadcast media. I haven't done a gray sweep pattern or any sort of scientific assessment. But it passes the No crash, No glitch and looks good criteria. I am a bit concerned now that further filtering in Vapoursynth is being hindered by the 10 bit source? Again, I'm happy with the results I'm getting so I won't be losing sleep over it. |
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