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-   -   Actual profesional capture cards? (AJA, Matrox) (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/13308-actual-profesional-capture.html)

srmusico 02-13-2023 10:23 PM

Actual profesional capture cards? (AJA, Matrox)
 
Hello!

I have been reading and learning for years about the best capture cards and which ones are crapy for analog SD signals.

I have an AJA IO LE, Matrox mxo2 le max, 4 units of Pinnacle 510, Black Magic Intensity Pro, Black Magic Decklink SDI, etc...

Do you have any tests/opinions of latest AJA, Matrox and Black Magic pro capture devices in SD analog situations?

I would love to have a modern workflow and meanwhile computer is capturing, i could do other stuff.

Have the possibility to buy really cheap a AJA Kona 3G capture card, and would love to know if it is good enough like Matrox MXO2 or AJA IO.

Thanks!!!

latreche34 02-13-2023 10:44 PM

Certainly no one has all those cards and have time to test with, Since you own them all and worth knowing to you, spend some time and do some capture tests for us.

mrmuy97 02-13-2023 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89141)
Do you have any tests/opinions of latest [...] pro capture devices in SD analog situations?

Really depends on what you want to do, what results you are expecting, what hardware/software you'll use, what amount of SD capture options and functions you want; there are lots of variables. Even if you're just doing SDI input to a newer capture card, though the hardware doesn't matter for that, the software options may not be what you want. What are the details of your project?

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89141)
I would love to have a modern workflow

My recent capture workstation was a 2019 Precision so that shouldn't be a problem for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89141)
and meanwhile computer is capturing, i could do other stuff.

Personally I wouldn't do that. Fresh Win 7 x64 install, latest (or most recent known stable) drivers, minimal additional software other than what's needed for what you plan to do e.g. capturing, processing, encoding, etc. While it is capturing, just let it capture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89141)
Have the possibility to buy really cheap a AJA Kona 3G capture card, and would love to know if it is good enough like Matrox MXO2 or AJA IO.

Grab it if it's a good card, i.e.: from original owner or other person who has taken care of it, not abused it when loose outside the computer, stored in anti-static bag, known good with zero issues, etc. That card has no value to almost anyone anymore, so its correct market value/price is very low; sounds like you're on the right track with that.

srmusico 02-14-2023 04:39 PM

Hi!
First of all, thanks for your reply.

My main stuff are comercial SP Tapes with HiFi sound and some home recorded tv shows.
Also more than 300 Betacam SP and Digital to capture (I Use directly a Sony Betacam Digital + SP thru my Black Magic SDI Card)

My VHS VCRs are really great machines. JVC SR V10E, Philips Digital VHS VR 20D, Panasonic NV - HS930, a Panasonic DMR - ES10 (just TBC use), ...

My computer have Mac Os Catalina. Is a really powerful machine. 128 GB RAM, i9 18 Cores, Radeon VII 16 GB GDDR5, ....

I want a really confortable workflow as BlackMagic have with Black Magic Media Express, but with the powerful fidelity and quality of Matrox or old AJA devices.

Problem of those old Matrox and AJa's? That i need to stay in really older systems than Catalina.

So, my actual question is if for example, the AJA Kona 3G PCie will have good service for old SD videos.

I don't have space at this moment to have other computer capturing with my old gears (AJA IO LE, Matrox MXO2,etc...)
There is not a problem for me to capture Pro Res files, and if is necessary, do a final conversion to a final possible format.

BTW, Im preparing a complete comparison of all these known capture cards and as soon as i can i'll share them :)

latreche34 02-14-2023 11:57 PM

You won't see differences in quality, In lossless all should sample at the same parameters defined by Rec.601, The differences you will be looking for are stability, OS compatibility, Capture software interface features, TBC performance, and additional features such as luma DNR, chroma DNR, and other advanced timing features, Usually stand alone boxes have more features than their PCIe counterpart cards.

srmusico 02-16-2023 10:35 AM

Thanks for your replies .
Finally Aja Kona 3G is not an option because is not compatible with OS higher than High Sierra.
But I have seen an option with Aja Kona LHi.

If all them are apparently more or less the same , why Lordsmurf use old ATI’s and not “pro capture cards” with better Os system compatibility??
My black magic intensity pro is AMAZING in compatibility and stability , but comparing colors with Matrox , ATI and others , looks worse .
Because of that I’m looking for something equivalent with actual compatibility.
Thanks !

Eric-Jan 02-23-2023 11:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Once you have a stable video signal, have a good analog to SDI/HDMI converter, and go for a SDI/HDMI recorder, or a non consumer SDI/HDMI recording card/device for your PC/Mac,
you already know the brands i see.
If you're using Mac OS be careful with Big Sur or M1 and M2 chip sets, some cards will not work with that, BMD website has lists for that, not using any computer system to capture is the safest way, these days.
(btw colors should be one of the least problems, using Davinci Resolve 18.1 on Catalina with ProRes422(LT) codec should be no problem)

mrmuy97 02-25-2023 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89162)
why Lordsmurf use old ATI’s and not “pro capture cards” with better Os system compatibility??

Well, you're asking why he favors older ATI AIW cards over newer stuff with current OS compatibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89162)
My black magic intensity pro is AMAZING in compatibility and stability , but comparing colors with Matrox , ATI and others , looks worse .

And you said you can tell that the newer stuff with current OS compatibility "looks worse" than the older ATI AIW cards.

I think you are answering your own question there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89284)
a good analog to SDI/HDMI converter, and go for a SDI/HDMI recorder

Are you referring to any specific hardware?

lordsmurf 02-25-2023 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmusico (Post 89162)
If all them are apparently more or less the same , hy Lordsmurf use old ATI’s and not “pro capture cards” with better Os system compatibility??

You're mushing some things together here.

For starters, the term "professional" is just a label. Actual professionals will adopt, or not adopt, gear based on quality, needed features, etc. We don't really care what it's called. That goes for almost anything in any field. As an example, some companies make "professional hammers", but you'll mostly see Lowe's and Home Depot specials in the field. Hobbyists are almost always the one to fall into that trap, sometimes newbies to the profession.

What exactly are you referring to with "all them are apparently more or less the same"?
- Quality items are rarely the same.
- Consumer stuff, most of it junk, does tend to perform the same (because it often is the same, aka rebadges).

Understand that "professional brands" can make junk (example = often Blackmagic), and "consumer brands" can make certain exceptional items (example = most of the ATI AIW with Theatre chips, though not all).

Quote:

My black magic intensity pro is AMAZING in compatibility and stability , but comparing colors with Matrox , ATI and others , looks worse .
It's not more stable. This is the main reason it is infamous for SD and consumer sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89284)
go for a SDI/HDMI recorder, or a non consumer SDI/HDMI recording card/device for your PC/Mac,

You must be careful with this advice. This user is PAL, so some paths exist here. Some, not all. For NTSC, this is 99%+ a no-go, do not do this whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmuy97 (Post 89290)
Well, you're asking why he favors older ATI AIW cards over newer stuff with current OS compatibility

I don't care about OS. Most professionals do not care about OS, in any industry. This is why you still find Windows XP in wide use (the best Windows OS to date), even Windows 95/98/ME. The OS just controls the system, and need only to not get in the way of the quality tool in use. We don't care about "updates", as 99% of these are offline systems.

OS are a problem, especially Windows and Mac, because those were made for consumers (yes, even the Server versions, as those are based on the consumer version). After OS updates, often a single update, we get OS locked, the quality tool doesn't function in the new OS. It doesn't make the tool "old", it makes the OS crappy. WinVista, Win8/10/11 ... all horrible. Fine for Facebook and games, but often terrible for doing actual work, like video capturing.

Quote:

And you said you can tell that the newer stuff with current OS compatibility "looks worse" than the older ATI AIW cards.
I think you are answering your own question there.
Yep. ATI AIW is extremely faithful quality to the source, referring specifically to the exposure values (and it also allows capture of illegal values). Most other cards, regardless of age (2003 to 2023) are degraded from it.

Quote:

Are you referring to any specific hardware?
He needs to. That's damaging advice (costly mistakes) without details.

Hushpower 02-25-2023 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmuy97
Are you referring to any specific hardware?

Eric-Jan gave you a picture of the converter in his post.

Eric-Jan 02-25-2023 05:08 AM

Yeah, the Blackmagic Design Mini Converter Analog to SDI, i don't understand the (ungrounded) hatred towards the BlackMagic Design products… yes, a raw VHS video signal is below the quality a BMD product is meant for, but other consumer products also need "clean-up" for good results, and the "good" ATi AiW products are very rare, and need OS degradation, which is not a "sound" advise for most people. what about the NTSC/PAL difference ? a multisystem vcr/dvd-recorder/combo (EU model) solves that problem, otherwise doo explane that for once, where lies the problem, i notice litle with an VHS NTSC tape for that matter, I think the OP is on the right track already, mindwise.
Yes, even on a new Mac OS it will be difficult to capture VHS, but also with the right old specs of hard and software,2nd hand hardware & cheap, it will be possible, just like on an old Windows setup, but today, once converted to SDI or HDMI there are good options from different brands to have a good HDMI pro recorder/recording.
…...In general i think a computer is not the best way to capture analog video….

latreche34 02-25-2023 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89293)
…...In general i think a computer is not the best way to capture analog video….

If you mean by "capture analog video" the conversion from analog to digital then I agree, You still need the computer though to ingest the raw digital signal into hard drive and edit or make a final playable format, I don't like the idea of using external recorders because you don't/can't control the workflow, If something happens it will be baked in and a re-capture is a must. Besides, good quality external SDI recorders are in the range of few thousands of dollars and geared towards HD not SD, Unless you are talking about the likes of clearclick junk and HDMI recorders, I wouldn't touch those even with a stick.

Eric-Jan 02-25-2023 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89296)
If you mean by "capture analog video" the conversion from analog to digital then I agree, You still need the computer though to ingest the raw digital signal into hard drive and edit or make a final playable format, I don't like the idea of using external recorders because you don't/can't control the workflow, If something happens it will be baked in and a re-capture is a must. Besides, good quality external SDI recorders are in the range of few thousands of dollars and geared towards HD not SD, Unless you are talking about the likes of clearclick junk and HDMI recorders, I wouldn't touch those even with a stick.

Yes, just like i said, capture, yes, post processing you do on any computer, your setup has not to be locked onto the capture device for compatebility, HDMI/SDI recorders don't have to cost thousands, there are both lines of BMD (Video Assist) and Atomos that range from $400 to under $999 these are good quality monitor/recorders, (there are also cost effective good HDMI cards for normal recent OS's)
No, 1-click etc. comes not into my mind… It's also not hard to avoid old pro stock TBC's which do costs thousands, even then these are hard to come by, and questionable of there quality also, i do not say capture is a cheap hobby if you want at least some quality, …..one should keep an eye out for new stuff, and try that, and dive into the technology, to be able to judge for yourself, if it's worth the try, there's no ready made answer for any one who tries the capture "game" of analog video.
Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89296)
I don't like the idea of using external recorders because you don't/can't control the workflow, If something happens it will be baked in and a re-capture is a must.

That's with any capture, only with well over thought pro-sumer options/settings in a good device for recording video, it's unlikely you make any mistake, capturing/transfering/recording this way, while with a computer you have to figure it out yourself, with the few (good) options, it's less complex

latreche34 02-25-2023 04:04 PM

Still, HDMI recorders are not recommended, they operate in the rec.709 range not designed for SD materials, with the exception of some legacy DVD recorders that did output legal rec.609 out of the HDMI port in 480i mode but they record only into DVD discs in MPEG-2.

Eric-Jan 02-25-2023 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89305)
Still, HDMI recorders are not recommended, they operate in the rec.709 range not designed for SD materials, with the exception of some legacy DVD recorders that did output legal rec.609 out of the HDMI port in 480i mode but they record only into DVD discs in MPEG-2.

I've never hear people complaining about rec.709 standard, how does one see when something goes wrong in this area ? reflecting this on most old recordings stored on VHS seems a bit exaggerated, quality wasn't that good in those days, certainly for the NTSC system, that has a nickname for that.
Referring to such details, i see no value in that for VHS, and is the least one should worry about.
(I guess HDMI capture cards work also in the rec.709 "range"…correcting colors in the 709 range is even wider/better)

lordsmurf 02-25-2023 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89293)
i don't understand the (ungrounded) hatred towards the BlackMagic Design products….

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89307)
I've never hear people complaining about rec.709 standard,

I realize you have good intentions here, but you're essentially a newbie trying to give advice. And sometimes that advice is odd, or just outright wrong. You don't know what you don't know. It's very obvious to several of us.

There's no "hatred" here (an adjacent feeling to love). There's no feelings at all here. Blackmagic is just a bad brand of devices for SD video, and it's been a well-known fact for years. Even BM acknowledges this. It's not about "liking" it, or being tribal in some way, but rather just acknowledging the reality of the situation. It is what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89303)
It's also not hard to avoid old pro stock TBC's which do costs thousands, even then these are hard to come by, and questionable of there quality also,

This is a loaded statement, rife with inaccuracies.
- "old pro stock TBCs", referring to rack mount units, is correct, those should be avoided
- there's nothing "old" about TBCs designed for consumer formats, when viewed from the timeline of video, not human years (nor dog years, or whatever)
- yes, there are certain issues with certain models, and that must be watched for (DataVideo caps, black AVT-8710, wrong gens, etc)
- rarity depends on model; some are rare, some really are not at all

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan (Post 89303)
…..one should keep an eye out for new stuff, and try that, and dive into the technology, to be able to judge for yourself,

I never liked this logical fallacy. So I combat it with something humorous and crass: I don't have to stick my pecker into an electrical socket to "try it" so I can "just for myself". Sometimes the wisest move is to listen to experts, not dabble like a monkey with a stick. To truly "test" hardware (and software), you need some basis for comparison, some constants -- you know, science. Not just random wild ass guessing on what "seems fine" or whatever. Sure, you can "try it" (play around aimlessly), but it may only waste your time. Video isn't a toaster.

Quote:

i do not say capture is a cheap hobby if you want at least some quality,
This is accurate, and often needs repeating. Video does not cost the price of a cheeseburger, be it McDonald's, Chili's, or somewhat gourmet place. However, compared to others hobbies (photo, car, action figures, knitting, etc), video is actually quite cheap. Best of all, quality gear holds value, so buy it, use it, resell it. It's junk that has zero resale, and is sunk costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89296)
You still need the computer though to ingest the raw digital signal into hard drive and edit or make a final playable format,

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89305)
Still, HDMI recorders are not recommended, they operate in the rec.709 range not designed for SD materials, with the exception of

^ This.

Quote:

some legacy DVD recorders that did output legal rec.609 out of the HDMI port in 480i mode but they record only into DVD discs in MPEG-2.
And those units had all sorts of issues, always resulting in massive quality loss due to internal bad processing (or lack of processing where there needed to be some).

Eric-Jan 03-04-2023 08:49 AM

Still i do not see a reason why the color space 709 should be a dis adtvantage, it's even a greater range, then 601 0r 609, so color wise more room to adjust.
Also you're going to watch it on digital equipment that uses the 709 color space.

latreche34 03-04-2023 03:32 PM

That's not how it works, it is not the bigger the number the better. But it's not just about the color, it's an entire system of settings.

Eric-Jan 03-04-2023 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 89372)
That's not how it works, it is not the bigger the number the better. But it's not just about the color, it's an entire system of settings.

How does it work ? i still see no answer, or a negative "thing" if the "digital world" needs this.
the primary colors are the same, and the "darks" you can correct.

latreche34 03-04-2023 09:08 PM

Everything can be corrected at the software level, But at a cost of quality. The only way to be able to see the difference is using a calibrated studio monitor and feed it with two files, one from a quality capture workflow that follows the standard. and another from a crappy chinese analog to HDMI adapter and a crappy chinese HDMI to USB and toggle between the two sources, then you will notice the difference.

The only part that you may not notice a huge difference and I know some have already disagreed with me is at the very end during upscaling from SD to HD and encoding when converting from 609 to 709, There is a slight color shift, But that assuming the video has been properly captured first in rec.609.


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