VirtualDub with Windows 11?

[goofy11]

Just getting started with my new workflow from lordsmurf to digitize VHS tapes. Total newbie so trying to figure things out. Here's what I have:

JVC SR-M55
DVK-200
Pinnacle Systems GmbH 510-USB Rev:2.0

I have a few PC's I can use, but both are running Windows 11. Is there a version of VirtualDub that works with Windows 11? Should I use a different software (I don't mind paying for something that works well)? Or, do I need to go find an old computer with an older version of Windows?

My hope is that the hardware I've acquired will maximize quality playback, and the software will provide solid results without being crazy complicated. I'd consider myself to be reasonably competent with running software, but I'll admit that my first impressions of VirtualDub have seemed intimidating. Not sure how much of that is the software, and how much of that is my inexperience in this world of video capture. Any advice to help me get started would be appreciated.

[Hushpower]

Virtual Dub is over-rated, IMO.

If you cannot get it working on Win 11, try the simpler AmarecTV:

https://www.videohelp.com/software/AmaRecTV

Ignore any prompts for version 4 AmarecTV codecs; version 3.1 is fine.

Guide here:

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post86872

Let us know how you get on on Win 11.

[lordsmurf]

There's too many unknowns with AmarecTV, and it fails to work with many cards.

@goofy, did you try VirtualDub 1.9.x yet?

[lollo2]

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There's too many unknowns with AmarecTV, and it fails to work with many cards.

There are no unknowns.

Which cards?

Any evidence? (I already know there will be none, jut asking for the pleasure of doing so)

AmarecTV is the best capture software for consumer cards. By far.

[goofy11]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

@goofy, did you try VirtualDub 1.9.x yet?

Yes, I did try it, but I'm not confident I have everything configured correctly. I tried both 1.9 (downloaded from this site) and 1.10 versions. Here's what I did.

Connected VCR to DVK-200 (S-video cable), and connected DVK-200 to Pinnacle device (S-video cable). Connected audio cables directly from VCR to Pinnacle device. (I've also tried capture without the use of the DVK-200 just to simplify things for troubleshooting.) Pinnacle device is connected to computer using the supplied USB cable.

I opened VirtualDub and pressed play on the VCR. I then went to File-->Capture AVI... to start capture mode. At this point it doesn't look like anything is happening. I then tried going to Device-->0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win 32) (VFW). I then got the message below.

"VirtualDub cannot connect to the desired capture driver"

Not sure if this is because I'm on a 64 bit system.

I did download the huffyuv files to my machine, but am not sure where to put them or how to use them.

[thestarswitcher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo2

Any evidence?

I don't have a sample on me at the moment, but I do have experience with Amarec inserting frames without making any indication in doing so. I can't recall if the software was the variable, or the TBC or ES15, I should probably do an experiment one of these days.
I did three captures, one in VD, and two in Amarec, and lining them up by the frame, the Amarec ones were all in sync somehow, but varying in different lengths.

I need to redo this again of course, perhaps I might try a video with a burnt in timecode in it. Otherwise, if I remember correctly, Amarec captures just fine without a TBC ironically enough.

[lollo2]

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I don't have a sample on me at the moment, but I do have experience with Amarec inserting frames without making any indication in doing so.

Never, ever experienced on hundreds of captures. And I have digital recorded references to check versus my analog recordings and captures.

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I can't recall if the software was the variable, or the TBC or ES15, I should probably do an experiment one of these days.

Yes please, report any result. My guess, is that TBC or ES15 may change the frame architecture.

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I did three captures, one in VD, and two in Amarec, and lining them up by the frame, the Amarec ones were all in sync somehow, but varying in different lengths.

AmarecTV provides a synch capture. If the tape has problems, it will insert/drop frames to keep synch, just as VirtualDub should do. The problem is
that VirtualDub often fails with card having integrated audio/video capture.

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I need to redo this again of course, perhaps I might try a video with a burnt in timecode in it

Yes please, any result you may have will be highly appreciated to increase the database of knoledge.

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Otherwise, if I remember correctly, Amarec captures just fine without a TBC ironically enough.

Not really. AmarecTV is superior to keep synch on clean signal. But the signal must be clean. If not, a frameTBC is needed. otherwise AmarecTV
will fail as any other software.

If you want to investigate further on the dropped/inserted frame, you can run a capture building your own graph with GraphEdit This home-build
capture software is very essential and will report any dropped frames (it will not be able to insert frames) without errors, and without complex
processing which may alter the frames and the audio synch. Then you can compare with VirtualDub and AmarecTV captures, and check everything.
(I did this extensively)

Also consider that some cards have been reported to drop frames before the signal reaches the capture software and then are hidden to it. I never experienced that or saw a reported experiments, just blah-blah, so I mention just for the sake of information.

[hodgey]

The old virtualdub variants do lack some fixes that can cause issues on modern windows, might work better with Virtualdub2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

I opened VirtualDub and pressed play on the VCR. I then went to File-->Capture AVI... to start capture mode. At this point it doesn't look like anything is happening. I then tried going to Device-->0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win 32) (VFW). I then got the message below.

WDM image capture isn't normally what you want to select three. If the drivers are working it should show "Pinnacle capture" or similar in the device menu. Don't know if the Pinnacle 510 works on up to date windows though or if you need a more modern capture device if you want to use something newer than windows 7.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo2

Which cards?

Certain Pinnacle cards balk, as well as others. (Remember, I have several dozen cards for testing. I do far more than most people realize, and often for reasons that are not discussed.)

Quote:

Any evidence? (I already know there will be none, jut asking for the pleasure of doing so)

You need to realize that the research I do isn't really for "you". (The royal "you", ie various folks online, in forums, wherever). It's being done with a specific purpose in mind, goals for projects, some of which I'm not able to talk about. I share observations, outcomes, larger macro bodies of research. I'm not a keyboard warrior trying to slay misinformation with "links" and "proof".

Sometimes I take samples, sometimes not.
Sometimes I have time to post the samples I took, sometimes not. I'm busy. I used to do more, but my health/MS is a time thief. It frustrates regularly. I do well enough just to type replies to posts.

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AmarecTV is the best capture software for consumer cards. By far.

I would never say this about any software. These are just tools, all have good and bad. I'm not a "fan" of VirtualDub, it's just something I use, a tool for a task. So far, a better tool does not exist. Sadly. AmaRecTV may work fine for you, but it simply is not for many others. It's not user error, or preference, but software flaws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

I opened VirtualDub and pressed play on the VCR. I then went to File-->Capture AVI... to start capture mode. At this point it doesn't look like anything is happening. I then tried going to Device-->0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win 32) (VFW). I then got the message below.

That must be a Win11 issue.
WinXP/7 do not shows "0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win 32) (VFW)", and that would be the wrong device. What device is selected? It does not seem as if the proper device is showing in VirtualDub.

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Not sure if this is because I'm on a 64 bit system.

No.

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I did download the huffyuv files to my machine, but am not sure where to put them or how to use them.

For now, don't do anything with codecs. Just capture uncompressed while setting up capture. Only ne variable at a time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestarswitcher

I don't have a sample on me at the moment, but I do have experience with Amarec inserting frames without making any indication in doing so. I can't recall if the software was the variable, or the TBC or ES15, I should probably do an experiment one of these days.
I did three captures, one in VD, and two in Amarec, and lining them up by the frame, the Amarec ones were all in sync somehow, but varying in different lengths. .

I've been stating this for months. I have deep concerns about the seemingly magic ability to "not lose frames". More likely is audio is being attenuated, and drops hidden/duped. I saw this in a test last year, but didn't have time to take samples as I wanted. Too rushed.

Quote:

Otherwise, if I remember correctly, Amarec captures just fine without a TBC ironically enough

Based on the above, it's not "fine" without a TBC. It just hide errors to where you don't think you need a TBC. Mere capture software is not able to dictate how hardware drops, which is due to not properly understanding or interpreting the incoming signal data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo2

. My guess, is that TBC

No.

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ES15 may change the frame architecture.

Yes, it can.

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VirtualDub often fails with card having integrated audio/video capture.

This is usually a timing settings issue. Other time, the card drivers have the OS.

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Not really. AmarecTV is superior to keep synch on clean signal. But the signal must be clean. If not, a frameTBC is needed. otherwise AmarecTV
will fail as any other software.

More likely is buffer overrun. AmaRecTV can hide flaws, and then it can be overrun when issued too many to hide. That's really no different from anything else, in terms of video, including TBCs and non-TBC hardware.

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you can run a capture building your own graph with GraphEdit This home-build

I've not used GraphEdit in 20 years. But I may re-learn when I have time to re-test. I'll PM you when that day comes, so we can run some good tests.

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capture software is very essential and will report any dropped frames

Nope. It can false report.

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Also consider that some cards have been reported to drop frames before the signal reaches the capture software and then are hidden to it. I never experienced that or saw a reported experiments

It's been some years, but there were BM discussions with samples starting about 10 years ago. Others have posted ove the years, in their own threads. Usually BM cards, infamous for drops with reporting. But it happens. It happened with software, too. In fact, you can disable VirtualDu reporting merely by disabling the wrong settings. Nothing says "disable reporting", but that's the net effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The old virtualdub variants do lack some fixes that can cause issues on modern windows, might work better with Virtualdub2..

Yep.
Try VirtualDub in Win8/10 (and probably 11).
If fail, and you know it's not PEBKAC, then try VirtualDub2. But verify it's not user error, proper scientific method.

Quote:

WDM image capture isn't normally what you want to select three. If the drivers are working it should show "Pinnacle capture" or similar in the device menu. Don't know if the Pinnacle 510 works on up to date windows though or if you need a more modern capture device if you want to use something newer than windows 7

It works in Win10. A tiny % of systems balk, usually related to Nvidia cards.

[lollo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Certain Pinnacle cards balk, as well as others. (Remember, I have several dozen cards for testing. I do far more than most people realize, and often for reasons that are not discussed.)

Also remember that I also have access to several cards/workflows/captures, and I can compare on a large set of results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm busy. I used to do more, but my health/MS is a time thief. It frustrates regularly. I do well enough just to type replies to posts.

I understand and highly respect your situation. That's why sometimes I soften my replies to your statements that I consider wrong, as you probably do with me and the rest of us for other reasons.
However, I only trust scientific experiment with unique results when supporting a thesis. Internet blah-blah is not for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm not a "fan" of VirtualDub, it's just something I use, a tool for a task. So far, a better tool does not exist. Sadly. AmaRecTV may work fine for you, but it simply is not for many others.

I am not a fan of AmarecTV either (or the Hauppauge USB-Live, often present in our discussions). But I like facts.
AmarecTV is the best capture software for consumer devices, as experimented by me and reported by many. I have yet to see a bad report about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This is usually a timing settings issue. Other time, the card drivers have the OS.

No. It may happen with any setting

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I've not used GraphEdit in 20 years. But I may re-learn when I have time to re-test. I'll PM you when that day comes, so we can run some good tests.

It will be a pleasure, but let me just write a small guide at the end of this reply on how proceed, for others as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

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Nope. It can false report.

No, you'll see why later.

here how to build your own capture software (if any doubt just ask):

1- download and open GraphStudioNext (I use 32bit version)

2- Using "Graph -> Insert Filter..." add the input filter of the card; in my case is "Hauppauge Cx23100 Crossbar"

3- Using "Graph -> Insert Filter..." add the capture filter of the card; in my case is "Hauppauge Cx23100 Video Capture"

4- connect video output pin and audio output pin from input filter to video input pin and audio input pin of capture filter by click and drag with the mouse

5-Using "Graph -> Insert Filter..." add your favourite capture codec; in my case is "Huffyuv 2.1.1"

6- connect video output pin from capture filter to Input pin of video codec (Huffyuv v2.1.1) by click and drag with the mouse

7- Using "Graph -> Insert Filter..." add "AVI Mux", which will be in charge to multiplex the streams

8- connect Output pin from codec to Input 01 pin of AVI Mux and audio output from capture filter to Input 02 of AVI Mux by click and drag with the mouse

9- Using "Graph -> Insert Filter..." add "File Write", specifying the name of the output file (capture.avi in my case), which will be in charge to create the capture file

10- connect AVI Out pin of AVI Mux to in pin of File Writer

11- double click on input filter of the card and capture filter of the card to set capture parameters (Composite or SVideo, PAL/NTSC/SECAM/, Proc Amp, etc,)

12- double click on AVI Mux filter and select Interleave "None"

13- Save the Graph

In this way you have created your own "capture software". It has the main disadvantage (which is a big advantage for our purposes) to do not have any custom
procedure/routines to handle the incoming audio/video stream. It just relies on AVI Mux filter and its check for the incoming packets. Withe the above settings, if a video frame does not arrive at the expected time (the specific video frame, or better field, rate) it will be dropped. And reported as such. No inertion of frames as in AmarecTV or VirtualDub, no relative audio/video clock adjustements, etc.

For a clean tape and appropriate workflow there will be no dropped frames. Otherwise, as often happens, there will be some. The AVI mux report can be inspected for analysis (be careful that it will be erased if closing the application, so it must be saved elsewhere). The captured file can be analyved also with VirtualDub to double check the dropped frames.

The purpose of all this is to audit the capture chain in stress condition, where no counter-measures are used by a generic capture software to keep in synch the streams, and see what happens. And compare with the results of the available software (VirtualDub, AmarecTV, VirtualVCR, etc.)

The proposed "capture software" is only to capture without display (a TV or monitor connected to the VCR can be used for that). It can be easily modified to add a set of filters to display the incoming signal, but I prefer to avoid it to do not introduce additional variables.

I am writing all this in a rush so if something is not clear just ask.

cattura.jpg

[goofy11]

I've tried two different versions of VirtualDub, VirtualDub2, AmaRecTV 3.10, and, CaptureFlux. In every case, the software doesn't see the Pinnacle capture card. I think my current roadblock is that I don't have an updated driver for the Pinnacle Systems GmbH 510-USB Rev:2.0 capture device.

Is there a driver that will work with Windows 11 with this Pinnacle device?

If not, should I explore using a different capture device -- Or, do I need to start shopping the used market for an old PC running Windows XP or Windows 7? (I do see a Windows 7 machine for sale locally on Facebook marketplace.)

At this point, I'm looking for the easiest solution, if there is such a thing.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

I've tried two different versions of VirtualDub, VirtualDub2, AmaRecTV 3.10, and, CaptureFlux. In every case, the software doesn't see the Pinnacle capture card. I think my current roadblock is that I don't have an updated driver for the Pinnacle Systems GmbH 510-USB Rev:2.0 capture device.

Are you using the correct drivers?
See https://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/vid...html#post71898

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Is there a driver that will work with Windows 11 with this Pinnacle device?

The problem is likely Win11, not the capture device. Capturing analog video was a 2000s task, and its the 2020s. Trying to use 2020s OS, hardware, and software is a dead end. Lousy quality at best. Win8/10 was sometimes screwy (workaround required), Vista often fine but annoying to use, Win7/XP best (aka, the main OS of the 00s into 10s). Win11 is too new, largely untested, and most tests have not given great results.

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If not, should I explore using a different capture device
At this point, I'm looking for the easiest solution, if there is such a thing.

There is lots of easy crap out there, all Chinese junk that promises the best quality ever. All BS. Quality items take a wee bit of effort. You make your own life more miserable by trying to force a round peg (2000s task/hardware/software) into a square hole (2020s OS). There is not anything "new" for analog videotape ingest, and probably never will be.

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-- Or, do I need to start shopping the used market for an old PC running Windows XP or Windows 7? (I do see a Windows 7 machine for sale locally on Facebook marketplace.)

Specs and condition still matter. Facebook is not where I'd shop for a computer. It may cost a bit more (or maybe not; people often overvalue their garbage), but I'd rather build a quality system, instead of take somebody's garbage. Most people are disgusting, and computers are almost always gross, and never maintained. If the motherboard is covered in soda, case with cobwebs and bug husks (and goo splatter), I'd not be surprised whatsoever.

[Hushpower]

I really like Lordsmurf's idea of having a capture OS on a separate SSD and using some sort of power switcher to determine what SSD runs at start up.

Lordsmurf, I can't find that (recent) post of yours with the Amazon link. Could you post it again?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hushpower

I really like Lordsmurf's idea of having a capture OS on a separate SSD and using some sort of power switcher to determine what SSD runs at start up.

Lordsmurf, I can't find that (recent) post of yours with the Amazon link. Could you post it again?

Yep, good call.

When available, dual boot. But hardware method, not software.

Use this as the boot switch: https://amzn.to/42ApSWL

Note: BE CAREFUL!
Don't hit the switch while the system is on. I doubt it will blow the SSD (possible, however), just corrupt open files, and screw up what you were doing at the time. Sort of like NOT turning off the car while you're driving it!

[goofy11]

A friend of mine had an old Toshiba 32-bit laptop running Windows XP Media Center Edition (I'm writing this message on it now). I've attached a screenshot of the system specs. What do you guys think? Worth a try?

-- merged --

Initial test with the Windows XP machine has got me closer. I now can see the Pinnacle device in VirtualDub....progress! Now when I try to initiate a capture, it looks like it's trying, but ultimately gives the error, "Unable to start video capture." Here are my steps:

1. Launch VirtualDub
2. Press play on VCR
3. In VirtualDub, click Capture (menu)-->Test video capture

Not sure if this is still a software problem, or an issue with how I have the hardware connected. To help rule out the latter first, I've attached a picture of how I have the workflow connected. Candidly, the DVK-200 device is a mystery to me. I'm not even sure what it's supposed to do, let alone how to use it.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

3. In VirtualDub, click Capture (menu)-->Test video capture

I have never used that. Just name/set the capture file, and capture a file for the test.

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Candidly, the DVK-200 device is a mystery to me. I'm not even sure what it's supposed to do, let alone how to use it.

That's the weak frame TBC, the budget TBC(ish) here. JVC VCR > DVK > capture card. That's the workflow. Do not leave it out. It's been modded and preset, the in/out on back is obvious. Plug in power, turn on unit, nothing else for you to do. It does have an embedded proc amp, if you want to learn it, read manual.

For the process of elimination, leave it out. VCR > capture card only, for right now during testing.

[goofy11]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's been modded and preset, the in/out on back is obvious. Plug in power, turn on unit, nothing else for you to do.

That's helpful. Just to confirm, does that mean the buttons and knob don't do anything at this point? In other words, I can't accidentally mess it up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

For the process of elimination, leave it out. VCR > capture card only, for right now during testing.

I've taken the DVK-200 out of the workflow and tried doing a straight capture. I still get the same error as before. As soon as I try to initiate the capture, it looks like it's trying. The black preview box in upper left corner disappears then reappears a few times, and then I get the error that it can't start capture. Just for kicks, I tried a different tape, but same result. With VirtualDub, I hadn't messed with changing settings. All I've done is configure the output file name/location, select the Pinnacle device, and then try initiating capture. Under 'Video' menu I have it selected to "Preview".

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

That's helpful. Just to confirm, does that mean the buttons and knob don't do anything at this point? In other words, I can't accidentally mess it up?

At least one button should be orange, which means it was locked. Buttons and knobs do nothing in this mode.

Quote:

I've taken the DVK-200 out of the workflow and tried doing a straight capture. I still get the same error as before. As soon as I try to initiate the capture, it looks like it's trying. The black preview box in upper left corner disappears then reappears a few times, and then I get the error that it can't start capture. Just for kicks, I tried a different tape, but same result. With VirtualDub, I hadn't messed with changing settings. All I've done is configure the output file name/location, select the Pinnacle device, and then try initiating capture. Under 'Video' menu I have it selected to "Preview".

Screencap the timing settings, and post.
Also, what are the specs of the video card? Nvidia, ATI, onboard?

[goofy11]

Here are screenshots of timing settings and graphics card info.

[lordsmurf]

I can't get to my video capture gear today, so going from memory here. Try the attached.

Put in Preview mode.
If needed, try different Preview Accelerator modes.

Intel graphics is good news.