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foreverlikethis 08-18-2024 11:15 AM

My blog post?
 
Hello, hope all is well.

I recently took on the endeavor of converting my VHS tapes to Digital and ended up writing a blog post about my experience and feelings:

https://foreverliketh.is/blog/vhs-to-digital/

This forum was a priceless resource throughout and though I don't exclusively sing its praises in the post, I believe I made its worth clear. The intention of this post was one of advice to others and gratitude for this website, VHS and a couple of other things. I didn't always end up following 100% of lordsmurf 's advice, but I really appreciated its existence and that of the countless others here who contribute.

I'd love to hear thoughts and comments, and if there's anything in particular you feel really needs correcting, I'd be more than happy to update it.

All the best.

Gary34 08-18-2024 12:39 PM

I think your picture is clipping.

How did it go with no frame TBC or frame synchronizer? Did it show any dropped or inserted frames in VirtualDub?

aramkolt 08-18-2024 12:55 PM

I hadn't seen that DigitalFaq Meme haha.

I think a fair number of people want the "best" results when capturing VHS and that's what leads to the rabbit hole - too many variables and reading opinions without seeing evidence (video samples) of their claims as to why one capture chain or device is better than another in a certain situation. I prefer to be "shown" specifically why (and how much) something is better than an alternative to keep the opinions/subjectivity to a minimum and not "told" that something is better without evidence.

It very well may be the case that the "recommended" methods and hardware here truly are ideal IF hardware availability, ease of use, and cost (both money involved and time involved) are removed from the equation. Yet, I don't see a big head to head comparison that shows most popular methods of conversion and video samples of the results of each (that are all captured from the same source tape) that you should expect to get with each method.

If there was one capture chain that cost $3k (that requires multiple computers and is done in several steps) versus a method that costs $200 (and is done in a single step with all items available currently on Amazon) and that user personally cannot not tell the difference or the difference observed to that user was negligible, why would they ever be encouraged to go with the $3k setup?

Each method/hardware chain will have pros and cons, so you can't really say that one method is the "best" for all situations. I think if people STARTED their capture journey by looking at possible end-results-to-be-expected with each method and chain done on an identical/ideal source, there would be a lot less confusion surrounding the topic.

My guess is that's why you like Video Capture Guide's YouTube channel - he provides evidence and direct comparisons when changing one variable at a time in the capture chain or process. It's not exactly broad ranging in terms of devices tested at a time, but it will give a good idea of what you should expect with the devices being compared if you had to choose between one or the other. What I am suggesting is that videos like that be considered in reverse (look at the results FIRST) and then go back to the part of the video where you see how that was achieved and if that's too complicated or cost prohibitive, go to the next best looking result and see how that was done. A good comparison would have data to go along with the videos to consider as well, such as revealing number of dropped frames, deinterlacing issues, size of the final file per hour, total time and cost involved etc.

foreverlikethis 08-18-2024 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98348)
I think your picture is clipping.

You'll have to be more specific with what you're referring to with the clipping; sorry, I'm not sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98348)
How did it go with no frame TBC or frame synchronizer? Did it show any dropped or inserted frames in VirtualDub?

I think it varied wildly by tape. The conditions of each tape varied significantly. I had one tape that was so bad, it shedded. And there were moments were only parts of a tape, in passing, were bad and resulted in dropped / inserted frames. But there were cases like the wedding video that I was blessed to have none. Additionally, no cases were so bad that they resulted in audio syncing issues, fortunately.

Meaning to say, I believe the tapes were the largest variable in the process. Not the absence of any additional equipment. That's, ofc, just my experience / opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt (Post 98349)
I hadn't seen that DigitalFaq Meme haha.

Heh, perhaps you'll enjoy this one as well: The VHS Tape Digitization Iceberg

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt (Post 98349)
I think a fair number of people want the "best" results when capturing VHS and that's what leads to the rabbit hole - too many variables and reading opinions without seeing evidence (video samples) of their claims as to why one capture chain or device is better than another in a certain situation. I prefer to be "shown" specifically why (and how much) something is better than an alternative to keep the opinions/subjectivity to a minimum and not "told" that something is better without evidence.

It very well may be the case that the "recommended" methods and hardware here truly are ideal IF hardware availability, ease of use, and cost (both money involved and time involved) are removed from the equation. Yet, I don't see a big head to head comparison that shows most popular methods of conversion and video samples of the results of each (that are all captured from the same source tape) that you should expect to get with each method.

If there was one capture chain that cost $3k (that requires multiple computers and is done in several steps) versus a method that costs $200 (and is done in a single step with all items available currently on Amazon) and that user personally cannot not tell the difference or the difference observed to that user was negligible, why would they ever be encouraged to go with the $3k setup?

Each method/hardware chain will have pros and cons, so you can't really say that one method is the "best" for all situations. I think if people STARTED their capture journey by looking at possible end-results-to-be-expected with each method and chain done on an identical/ideal source, there would be a lot less confusion surrounding the topic.

My guess is that's why you like Video Capture Guide's YouTube channel - he provides evidence and direct comparisons when changing one variable at a time in the capture chain or process. It's not exactly broad ranging in terms of devices tested at a time, but it will give a good idea of what you should expect with the devices being compared if you had to choose between one or the other. What I am suggesting is that videos like that be considered in reverse (look at the results FIRST) and then go back to the part of the video where you see how that was achieved and if that's too complicated or cost prohibitive, go to the next best looking result and see how that was done. A good comparison would have data to go along with the videos to consider as well, such as revealing number of dropped frames, deinterlacing issues, size of the final file per hour, total time and cost involved etc.

I agree, that certainly sounds like it'd make for a more straightforward approach to the endeavor. As I was working on the project some friends were asking: "is this some audiophile-tier stuff?" I'd reply that I didn't think so, a lot of it seemed practical and reasonable and understandable, to a point, I think. Though I can't really say, I've never been audiophile either. But that's why I also felt it was important to find charm in the imperfections, though that too only to a certain degree.

I recently bought a modern cassette player and everywhere I read talks about how garbage they are, particularly bringing up the sounds the player generates. But I like the hum! Take from that what you will.

Gary34 08-19-2024 12:58 PM

Quote:

You'll have to be more specific with what you're referring to with the clipping; sorry, I'm not sure.
This is clipping https://youtu.be/htqrTTSZp-M?si=EgG3eLJlzYSmWobi. You can use your histogram in Vdub to help you stay within the legal levels than you can check them in hybrid with a waveform monitor.

Quote:

I think it varied wildly by tape. The conditions of each tape varied significantly. I had one tape that was so bad, it shedded. And there were moments were only parts of a tape, in passing, were bad and resulted in dropped / inserted frames. But there were cases like the wedding video that I was blessed to have none. Additionally, no cases were so bad that they resulted in audio syncing issues, fortunately.

Meaning to say, I believe the tapes were the largest variable in the process. Not the absence of any additional equipment. That's, ofc, just my experience / opinion.
That’s fine for you to share your opinions/experience. I’m just sharing my own experience /opinion also. The tapes are the issue but there are tools that help with that issue. If you have something there it will help a lot compared to nothing to prevent dropped frames. A Pannasonic es-15 or es-10 would of helped. You would of wanted to turn off the TBC in your VCR if you were using that though. From what I’ve heard there’s downsides. You can look through the forum for that. I don’t own one so Idk from personal experience on that. I know about an actual frame TBC but i don’t really wanna go into that because I don’t think you wanna go that route. Something would help out a lot. The shedding tape is a different story.

foreverlikethis 08-19-2024 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98373)
This is clipping https://youtu.be/htqrTTSZp-M?si=EgG3eLJlzYSmWobi. You can use your histogram in Vdub to help you stay within the legal levels than you can check them in hybrid with a waveform monitor.

Ah, yes. VirtualDub complained about the GV-USB2 capture card I used. Didn't allow me to play with the video levels (nor the histogram if I'm recalling correctly).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98373)
That’s fine for you to share your opinions/experience. I’m just sharing my own experience /opinion also. The tapes are the issue but there are tools that help with that issue. If you have something there it will help a lot compared to nothing to prevent dropped frames. A Pannasonic es-15 or es-10 would of helped. You would of wanted to turn off the TBC in your VCR if you were using that though. From what I’ve heard there’s downsides. You can look through the forum for that. I don’t own one so Idk from personal experience on that. I know about an actual frame TBC but i don’t really wanna go into that because I don’t think you wanna go that route. Something would help out a lot. The shedding tape is a different story.

I'm afraid I don't have enough experience or knowledge to agree or disagree on this front. I'm a tad skeptical though.

Gary34 08-19-2024 07:01 PM

I got ya. Well good luck with your captures. I hope it goes well.

timtape 08-19-2024 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt (Post 98349)

I think a fair number of people want the "best" results when capturing VHS and that's what leads to the rabbit hole - too many variables and reading opinions without seeing evidence (video samples) of their claims as to why one capture chain or device is better than another in a certain situation. I prefer to be "shown" specifically why (and how much) something is better than an alternative to keep the opinions/subjectivity to a minimum and not "told" that something is better without evidence...

Yes, evidence. It's so simple. You'd think that the stronger someone recommends this way or that, this piece of gear or that, this signal chain or that, the more keen they'd be to put up the visual evidence to prove their visual claims. Let the pictures do the talking.

lordsmurf 08-19-2024 10:24 PM

That "word of caution" Reddit posts irritates me, and you shouldn't link to it.

It's a reminder of a sad era for me, for our family. During the back half of the pandemic, in late 2021, several family members had sudden declines in health. We lost them in 2022. My attention was often on that, not video. I tried my best to maintain composure, to keep operations running smoothly, but I couldn't always do it.

That was the only guy who did not care, even after he was told the situation. Everybody else was quite understanding, and several reached out to console me/us.

I'm still trying to heal, to move forward, but that page isn't helping. Every time I see it, hear about it, it brings back feelings of sadness and loss.

It was just for a single tape project. It wasn't worth all this pain. :(

Gary34 08-20-2024 12:57 AM

This is a frustrating thread.

I see this at the beginning.

Quote:

I'd love to hear thoughts and comments, and if there's anything in particular you feel really needs correcting, I'd be more than happy to update it.
Then I notice bad clipping and a workflow that is asking for dropped frames so I have comments but I see the quote below and I can see his attitude about gear recommendations. So I make it really minimalistic recommendation and then I get into a situation where someone doesn’t believe me that there are ways to prevent dropped frames and it’s someone that just wrote an article that mentions the importance of not rushing things and doing your homework.

That really isn’t good to be done with your project and not know what clipping is and not know that you can prevent dropped frames.

Quote:

Heh, and it ain’t just the charlatans who’ll be a pain in your neck. On the other end of this spectrum are the ‘perfectionists’. Those who will always be lingering about to ensure your efforts feel… “inadequate”. To satiate them comes at a price I do not suggest you pay, for a reward I do not suggest you seek. Not that these greybeards shouldn’t be cherished, mind you; particularly in contrast to their antithesis. I’d just advise that you frame them as a sort-of “aim for the moon, land among the stars” situation. And, maybe also, consider finding humor at your own inability to please either side; that’s what I did at least.
It just sucks because he publishes something saying yeah I did it with this gear then someone else thinks that’s all they need and that they can’t prevent dropped frames. It takes information from this site and passes it down like some game of telephone but the cord is real long and information is leaking out of the cord for like 100 feet so when it gets to the other person there’s nothing left hardly.

I don’t care what he does with his project. I just hate for the new people to be mislead.

Aya_Rei 08-20-2024 01:12 AM

On the topic of clipping, heck I understand it but I don't really adjust my TBC nor capture card's proc amp to counter it and just leave it at it's default settings, why? Well I suppose I'm not comfortable with needing to tweak it and just let it's default values handle everything.

Which, in comparison to not using the CDM 640, helps with the whites.

https://imgsli.com/Mjg5MzIw

Personally looking at the image in the blog post, it looks like it is suffering from crushed blacks. You can't see any detail in the groom's suit. At least it isn't a stupidly bright mess that hurts my eyes.. I've seen captures like that on YouTube..

Gary34 08-20-2024 01:34 AM

Maybe Im being harsh. I don’t think so though.

Quote:

On the topic of clipping, heck I understand it but I don't really adjust my TBC nor capture card's proc amp to counter it and just leave it at it's default settings, why? Well I suppose I'm not comfortable with needing to tweak it and just let it's default values handle everything.
I have to adjust mine but I think my sources are pretty bad.

Quote:

Personally looking at the image in the blog post, it looks like it is suffering from crushed blacks. You can't see any detail in the groom's suit. At least it isn't a stupidly bright mess that hurts my eyes.. I've seen captures like that on YouTube..
https://youtu.be/XCSQ8CDSxTE?si=8MD3ovBoJXcCYZyZ Im not trying to hate on the decode project or anything. I actually think it’s an interesting project but they always have the worst example videos.

lordsmurf 08-20-2024 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei (Post 98387)
On the topic of clipping, heck I understand it but I don't really adjust my TBC nor capture card's proc amp to counter it and just leave it at it's default settings, why? Well I suppose I'm not comfortable with needing to tweak it and just let it's default values handle everything.
Which, in comparison to not using the CDM 640, helps with the whites.
https://imgsli.com/Mjg5MzIw

Certain gear "just works". That CDM is legalizing values, and has properly pillarbared.

That specific TBC was about $1k when new (20 years ago), mostly sold to overseas broadcast facilities that were based on budget end tapes (S-VHS, Hi8). It did rough PAL<>NTSC formats conversion ("good enough" for the small TVs used in those locales). Like other Cypress, it was ruined with bad chips in latter years, and those bad units are vastly more common to find.

Quote:

Personally looking at the image in the blog post, it looks like it is suffering from crushed blacks. You can't see any detail in the groom's suit.
I'd actually bet it's double-crushed, due to combo of gear and AGC.

This is pretty easy to recreate -- just use lower-end gear, no frame TBC.

That 7500 is actually a recommended JVC, but it can have some aggression issues with NR/values, and cannot be turned off. The 9500 is similar. Note that I keep both a 7500 and 9500 in my arsenal, but it's never my first deck. It does have strengths that make it desirable.

A main concern I've always had about the GV-USB2 is that it respects IRE 0, as used in Japanese NTSC (where the card is from) and PAL. Only PAL users ever praise it. Even then, even for IRE 0, it's always seemed dark by default. I bought one, I never use it beyond testing.

So:
- IRE 0
- dark card
- no TBC
- 7500 AGC

After you're done some of these things for decades, it's really obvious where the issue might be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98388)
https://youtu.be/XCSQ8CDSxTE?si=8MD3ovBoJXcCYZyZ Im not trying to hate on the decode project or anything. I actually think it’s an interesting project but they always have the worst example videos.

The VC500 has known AGC issues. It's not a comparison sample at all.

Gary34 08-20-2024 02:08 AM

If someone is coming from YouTube then I can understand not knowing some of those things. I just don’t see it coming from here because they mention it a lot. Im just trying to give some honest input which OP asked for at the beginning.

Anyways if OP is still taking request for things to change then I would say mention the dropped frames.

7jlong 08-20-2024 12:13 PM

I wonder if this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98352)
I recently bought a modern cassette player and everywhere I read talks about how garbage they are, particularly bringing up the sounds the player generates. But I like the hum! Take from that what you will.

... should perhaps go at the top of your blog post. It gives an instant and relatable benchmark for your own personal expectations, which - no offense - seem to be on the lower side? Unless you bought the cassette player to make noise art or glitch tunes or something?

Gary34 08-20-2024 01:15 PM

It’s soo strange that someone made a page about this site and they have nothing to prevent dropped frames like that. It seems like he put more work into the page than he did researching what to do for his project. Then he was soo defensive about the gear recommendation. I’m not a gray beard either. Well a little gray. I’m 35. I was really clueless before this site myself.

There’s no real particulars either about what software he used or if he captured losslessly. It’s just a few stereotypes that repeat stuff he probably read off of Reddit. There’s no valuable information.

Aya_Rei 08-20-2024 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98393)
It’s soo strange that someone made a page about this site and they have nothing to prevent dropped frames like that. It seems like he put more work into the page than he did researching what to do for his project. Then he was soo defensive about the gear recommendation. I’m not a gray beard either. Well a little gray. I’m 35. I was really clueless before this site myself.

There’s no real particulars either about what software he used or if he captured losslessly. It’s just a few stereotypes that repeat stuff he probably read off of Reddit. There’s no valuable information.


Heck, I'm in my 20s and I was just as clueless as you Gary, I was the perfect kind of person to be swept by the YouTubers recommending Elegato's.. I actually could've stuck that route as that is how I started up digitizing tapes but, shocker. The equipment I was using was not at all giving me ideal results, it "worked" but I personally felt like I was not getting the best possible quality out of those VHS/8mm tapes, I wasn't doing the precious footage of family moments any justice, which is why I invested the time and funds, reading Lordsmurf's posts, ordering a workflow from him and talking to him in PMs to overall try to figure out and understand how to handle this task properly.

Now I can say that I am confident enough in capturing my own tapes, even tapes from other people so long as they don't have any mold and other physical damage, which I do inspect for whenever I get VHS tapes specifically. If the signal is completely screwed up and manually tracking doesn't help, then that is when I cut my loses, such as the 1999 Kodak branded VHS Wedding tape, in which I'm trying to determine if it 100% is a copy by figuring out what camera was used to film the footage, hoping that the original video8/vhs-c tape still exists so I can capture that instead.

Handling a VCR itself is another story, for now I'm trying to avoid that by carefully inspecting tapes for any mold and wrinkles so that I don't accidentally play them. Usually when I'm done capturing a set of tapes from a family member/close friend, I pop it a known good movie tape and let it run for around 5 minutes, just to see if the VCR is still in good shape.

I guess it's funny how I started out with a crappy, not ideal archiving method to capture VHS/Video8 tapes before jumping ship all the way to a high quality archival capture workflow.

foreverlikethis 08-20-2024 09:17 PM

Hello again everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 98381)
That "word of caution" Reddit posts irritates me, and you shouldn't link to it.

It's a reminder of a sad era for me, for our family. During the back half of the pandemic, in late 2021, several family members had sudden declines in health. We lost them in 2022. My attention was often on that, not video. I tried my best to maintain composure, to keep operations running smoothly, but I couldn't always do it.

That was the only guy who did not care, even after he was told the situation. Everybody else was quite understanding, and several reached out to console me/us.

I'm still trying to heal, to move forward, but that page isn't helping. Every time I see it, hear about it, it brings back feelings of sadness and loss.

It was just for a single tape project. It wasn't worth all this pain. :(

I wasn't aware of the context in its entirety. First off, my condolences for what you went through. The intention of that section, the links to discussions outside of this website, was to encourage the reader to not solely limit their reading / perspective to any single source / authority. I believe it worthwhile to always consider (reasonable? kind?) criticism, to have an open mind. I can achieve the intention without including that link in particular. I think you have a strong case for your request and I apologize for including it. I will swap it out shortly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98386)
This is a frustrating thread.

I notice bad clipping and a workflow that is asking for dropped frames so I have comments but I see the quote below and I can see his attitude about gear recommendations. So I make it really minimalistic recommendation and then I get into a situation where someone doesn’t believe me that there are ways to prevent dropped frames and it’s someone that just wrote an article that mentions the importance of not rushing things and doing your homework.

That really isn’t good to be done with your project and not know what clipping is and not know that you can prevent dropped frames.

It just sucks because he publishes something saying yeah I did it with this gear then someone else thinks that’s all they need and that they can’t prevent dropped frames. It takes information from this site and passes it down like some game of telephone but the cord is real long and information is leaking out of the cord for like 100 feet so when it gets to the other person there’s nothing left hardly.

I don’t care what he does with his project. I just hate for the new people to be mislead.

This one's a bit of a knot... Maybe the mistake was mine in even sharing with this strongly technical website, but I really was just asking about my blog post. Not my results, nor my workflow, nor my equipment. You'll notice that including the cost and hardware was an afterthought, it's on the "Cutting Room Floor". Perhaps that was another of my mistakes, I gave the technical side an inch and a mountain was made of a molehill.

My post, and I think its self-evident, is not a technical one. It is my feelings and experience. The image I shared was emotionally significant, not technically so. So, yes, I apologize that I wasn't the most interested in your responses, they're not really the ones I was looking for.

Regarding the clipping, I thought you were going to be way more specific with what you're referring to but it turned out to be rather general. For what it's worth I did want to mess with the video levels and histogram, but, as I said, could not.

And I think it's within my right to say I feel skeptical, am I mistaken? Particularly when the dropped / inserted frames have no relevancy on the blog's screenshot in particular.

---

I'm not sure why this thread was moved to Video Project Help, when I originally put in General Discussion where, given the nature of the kind of blog post it is, I think is more accurate.

I'd like to appreciate more the discussion but it's hard to not feel some hostility. Unwarranted imo, given:
-how it's just a small post on my personal website (very, very small audience)
-the main points of the article are, I think, reasonable
-and I came, immediately after posting, to transparently receive feedback.

Is my post really as bad, for beginners, as recommending Elgato?

lordsmurf 08-20-2024 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98399)
I'm not sure why this thread was moved to Video Project Help, when I originally put in General Discussion where, given the nature of the kind of blog post it is, I think is more accurate.

The General Discussion forum will be eliminated in the near future, in line with a general overhaul of this forum, of the entire site, to reflect a new direction. Still heavily about digital video, but it will better reflect what members here need and want. So I'm trying to move all new topics, in addition to move old topic. Your blog post is about digital video capture, so that's where it was moved.

Now then, the intention of your post was apparently about the blog itself, how it discusses capturing, and not the actual capturing. And I'll be glad to give my non-technical thoughts to you when time permits.

Gary34 08-21-2024 01:25 AM

I meant what I said. This whole thread seems troll like anyways IMO. If you have a question start a new thread or use the search bar.

lordsmurf 08-21-2024 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98402)
This whole thread seems troll like anyways IMO.

I don't think that's the case here. At most, misguided.

But even if it were trolling -- which I don't think it is -- giving benefit of the doubt is the defense. I plan to give the feedback he wants, within the confines he has requested. In this sort of situation, if it really were an attempt to troll, all you'd do is make the troll look like an ass. But again, I don't see that here.

I have a busy night ahead of me, but I'll look at the blog more closely in a few days. :)

Gary34 08-21-2024 01:55 AM

Quote:

I don't think that's the case here. At most, misguided.

But even if it were trolling -- which I don't think it is -- giving benefit of the doubt is the defense.
You’re right. I’ll chill. :cool:

7jlong 08-21-2024 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98399)
Maybe the mistake was mine in even sharing with this strongly technical website, but I really was just asking about my blog post. Not my results, nor my workflow, nor my equipment.

I'll go with: Yes. This might have been a mistake.

You have described that you are not at all interested in the technical discussion, but rather an evaluation/review of your actual blog post about it. Having read the posts here as thoroughly as you mention, did it really not cross your mind that the first question would probably not be about your prose, but about your workflow? Especially considering that in what seems like a weird attempt at being 'fair', you include a link to a discussion that basically describes a Reddit poster's rather negative view of this forum's host?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or combative, but - how did you think this was going to go?

As for the blog post itself, the very first image is frustrating. Snow? Mushy snow? Mushy upscaled snow? Is this an advertisement for how capture can go badly?

Then your very first paragraph is also frustrating. It sounds like you are blaming VHS itself for mold problems. VHS tapes don't grow mold all by themselves, storage conditions are incredibly important - which is why they put those cute little pictures on the VHS label sheets back in the day showing the various conditions that are bad for your tapes. Not the tape's fault, just as is not Super8 film's fault if the reels were stored in a humid environment and grew cooties.

After that, it's a typical traditional blog post, itemizing places you've visited and your thoughts on them. Useful, but the overall message here seems to be "do your own research" - not what worked for you, or didn't work for you, or why - except some probably needless nose-thumbing at 'perfectionists'. There's another image that you want no comments on, which is great, because it is cropped and upscaled and indicative of not much at all, really.

Therefore to me the post amounts to "I did this thing!" and not much more, which I guess brings me right back to: you brought this to a very technical forum asking for input, but you don't want to hear about the technical parts - yeah, that might not have been the best strategy.

foreverlikethis 08-21-2024 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong (Post 98405)
I'll go with: Yes. This might have been a mistake.

You have described that you are not at all interested in the technical discussion, but rather an evaluation/review of your actual blog post about it. Having read the posts here as thoroughly as you mention, did it really not cross your mind that the first question would probably not be about your prose, but about your workflow? Especially considering that in what seems like a weird attempt at being 'fair', you include a link to a discussion that basically describes a Reddit poster's rather negative view of this forum's host?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or combative, but - how did you think this was going to go?

As for the blog post itself, the very first image is frustrating. Snow? Mushy snow? Mushy upscaled snow? Is this an advertisement for how capture can go badly?

Then your very first paragraph is also frustrating. It sounds like you are blaming VHS itself for mold problems. VHS tapes don't grow mold all by themselves, storage conditions are incredibly important - which is why they put those cute little pictures on the VHS label sheets back in the day showing the various conditions that are bad for your tapes. Not the tape's fault, just as is not Super8 film's fault if the reels were stored in a humid environment and grew cooties.

After that, it's a typical traditional blog post, itemizing places you've visited and your thoughts on them. Useful, but the overall message here seems to be "do your own research" - not what worked for you, or didn't work for you, or why - except some probably needless nose-thumbing at 'perfectionists'. There's another image that you want no comments on, which is great, because it is cropped and upscaled and indicative of not much at all, really.

Therefore to me the post amounts to "I did this thing!" and not much more, which I guess brings me right back to: you brought this to a very technical forum asking for input, but you don't want to hear about the technical parts - yeah, that might not have been the best strategy.

Again, I'm not appreciative of the hostility. It mainly makes me want to go back and warn future readers of my post that despite the informative value of this site, it is potentially a homogeneous, fragile, "large-ego'd", close-minded echo chamber. Seemingly unwelcoming to beginners. Is it illegal to have negative perception here? I obliged in the swapping of the link, even apologized, but I am not seeing much grace in turn. Makes me question how rare such aggressive culture is here... I'm sorry I wasn't explicitly clear I wasn't asking for technical feedback, but I also did not explicitly ask for it either before it was thrust upon me. And, like I said, I also attempted to place this thread in the least-technical section of the forum.

Your feelings regarding my opening paragraph also potentially paint an uncompassionate picture. My father made a mistake, everyone does. But, yes, I also DO question the viability of a medium where certain climates make it very difficult to ideally store it. Whether I blame that on VHS itself, the history leading up to it, the creators, it makes no difference, it's just a shame. But your inconsiderate, potentially callous, lack of sympathy for my father's loss says plenty on its own, I think.

7jlong 08-21-2024 02:36 PM

Thank you for the laugh.
I think Gary was actually right about this one.
Have a terrific day.

Gary34 08-21-2024 04:46 PM

Quote:

Again, I'm not appreciative of the hostility. It mainly makes me want to go back and warn future readers of my post that despite the informative value of this site, it is potentially a homogeneous, fragile, "large-ego'd", close-minded echo chamber. Seemingly unwelcoming to beginners. Is it illegal to have negative perception here? I obliged in the swapping of the link, even apologized, but I am not seeing much grace in turn. Makes me question how rare such aggressive culture is here.
I like people being more blunt with me. The close minded comment is a little strange since your not wanting any input about anything to do with capture.

I think you’re talking about me. If you think I was a jerk then that’s me. Not the whole group. There really not unwelcoming to beginners. The people that I know know more than me are the ones that help. I thought about sending you some links to answer your question about clipping. Then I thought he doesn’t really want the answers to any of that. He could look at post #11 and see what I’m talking about or he could look it up with the search bar but he said he’s not really interested in discussing anything about capture. Any information about his workflow is off limits and he’s fine with his video dropping or inserting frames and that’s not something he’s looking for advice on. Then I thought well I don’t really have anything to talk to him about. There’s elephants in the room you don’t want addressed and they aren’t perfectionist stuff. It’s basic things.

Anyways it’s good that you found advice here that helped you even though idk what advise you followed. A lot of people wouldn’t be happy with the drops and inserts especially if they see what it looks like once you get a good capture and edit in hybrid. It’s good to tell the whole story and tell about your dropped and inserted frames.

Here’s another video on clipping. You have to go to 5:30 https://youtu.be/KiLOTF9dN9Y?si=wX8Ga6-5khfHj4Sa. Not meaning to be hostile it’s just a very narrow thing you wanna talk about. If you’re wondering about any questions to do with capture feel free to ask someone. Good luck with your captures.

lordsmurf 08-21-2024 05:39 PM

I'll still be getting back to the OP in coming days, when time permits. And apparently reading posts here, as I can only skim right now.

Some quick points:

- There should be no hostility at this site. It's not Reddit or Twitter.

- Sometimes bluntness is misread as hostility. Bluntness is often given to not allow any misunderstanding, and is without malice. So "it sucks" rather than "it's not the best quality". But it's not some sort of personal attack, but rather discussing in no uncertain terms. In general, if bluntness is marked as "I'm intentionally being blunt here" or some such, then we know the intent is helpful and good-hearted, even if rough/blunt/honest, and such comments may be allowed. (Note that "blunt" posters need to be that way in moderation. We don't need members with bad attitudes crapping on the forum.)

- To a degree, proper care of VHS tapes had a luck factor.

- Having a conversation (a review, feedback, whatever) -- free of the technicals -- will be an interesting conversation, and one I'll be happy to have with you. Perhaps this site needs more "success stories" like this. More about content, less about tech. Obviously we will point out the technical flaws, discuss how it could have been done better. And yet, a good conversation can be had by all.

Back soon. :)

timtape 08-22-2024 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98406)
... My father made a mistake, everyone does.

I think the regrettable fact is that the vendor, who, working in the business should have known better, gave your father poor advice re his mould affected tapes. Audio and video tapes can often be expertly treated for mould contamination even after flooding, and partially or fully transferred.

Sadly it's probably a bit late now but here is the name of a well respected US business specialising in tape remediation and disaster recovery, with an impressive track record and clientele: http://www.specsbros.com/

Some people can be just mean. Instead of admitting to a customer that something like tape mould remediation is beyond their skills and equipment and refer the customer on to someone else who can deal with the mould problem that they themselves cannot, they can bluff their way through, claiming or implying that nobody can fix the problem. And so tragically the customer ditches their valuable recordings believing all is lost.

Some businesses advertise the boast that they never farm out work to another company or specialist, implying that they can do it all inhouse and at a very high level, which often is not true. A company of integrity would place in a prominent place on their website the names of other vendors and agencies who can do the specialist work that they cannot do themselves. In the end that is a win for everyone IMO.

lordsmurf 01-11-2025 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98346)
I'd love to hear thoughts and comments, and if there's anything in particular you feel really needs correcting, I'd be more than happy to update it.

I get busy, I get sidetracked -- mostly with family, my health, and family health. But I do always try to circle back to conversations where my input is sought. You took time to write that, then ask for feedback here. So I'll take the time to read it, and give the feedback requested. But this wasn't an urgent matter, so it's been in an open tab for these past few months, hence the delay.

What I'll do here is quote your piece, and reply in-line as I read it (again).

Quote:

Do you know what VHS really stands for, traveler? It’s: “Various Hurdles and Suffering”.
I don't know about suffereing. More like "VHS is Hardly Simple". It's just a task that takes time, reading, patience, and tools. In other words, not much different from anything else worth doing. The problem is that everything thinks they know everything about videotapes (or cars, or cooking, or whatever), and botch it all in the process. So you get the attitude of "Ugh, I gotta read? I gotta buy stuff? The horrors!"

Quote:

To his surprise, they’d been covered in mold and when he took the matter to a repair shop they told him he’d lost everything, including the player, and that he should throw it all away;
That person was an idiot. No need to dress that in soft language. Moron, dumbass, clueless, a sorry excuse for a "repair shop" if ever there was one.

Quote:

Where a person is more likely to watch (and accept!) the first video YouTube excretes from its algorithmic anus, than to do any of there own godforsaken research on a topic.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Yes, yes, yes. Love it. I need to put that on a T-shirt.

Quote:

They want to produce over-rushed CON-tent, with minimal effort, for their profit, at your irrelevant expense.
Yep. "Blah blah, videotapes ... and now a word from our sponsor!!!" :screwy:

Furthermore, "Technology Connections" on Youtube is a complete numbnuts when it comes to video. He's proclaimed himself an expert at everything technology, but anybody that knows anything about what he covers knows that he's a fraud. He makes clickbait ********* nothing more.

Quote:

by Video Capture Guide.
He's good --- but that's because he clearly learned video from this site.

Quote:

In other words, I strongly advise A LOT of reading. To start: The Digital FAQ.com is an invaluable repository of information. Lead by the most fearsome entity in this community: lordsmurf.֎ This person, for various reasons, is worthy of your attention; even if solely for their sheer commitment to the cause.
I'm humbled, thank you. :salute:

Quote:

But as much as we seek authority, I believe it worthwhile to acknowledge criticism in hopes of realizing more tempered perceptions:
Meme - Average DigitalFAQ Forum Thread
VHS - S-Video Capture Or VHS_Decode?
I don't really see that as necessary. For example, I never say "__ is my favorite MLB team ... but other people hate them for this reason" (with links to people saying my team sucks). That seems odd to me. Reddit especially tends to get as toxic as Twitter at times, and I generally don't link to either one of them for that reason.

Quote:

It’s Complicated
We’re talking about an issue that involves:
Priceless memories, along with the heated emotions they invoke
Capitalistic greed
A convenience worshipping public
Technology long past its prime
And plenty of opinions
Nah, that's not really complicated.

The only real complex aspect is/was the "capitalistic greed", due to devices not performing as claimed. To some degree, you have to already know about video and the devices to know when those companies were full of BS. But with VHS ingest/capture, it's almost entirely in the rearview. Many of the companies don't even exist anymore. At this late date, the 2020s, many of us (the video community) know which companies were lying, or which made great hardware/software (including freeware, not just payware). But, of course, to know the score, you'll have to read up, find those communities, connect with those people.

But then the next problem is
(1) people not verifying sources, then reading/comprehending those sources
(2) other people who say stuff, but in actuality know nothing, and should keep their yap shut, in order to not confuse the newbies --- aka all the "content creators" on Youtube.

I'm not as concerned about "convenience" (nice way of saying "lazy"), the older tech, or the importance of the memories. All of that stuff just is what it is.

Quote:

Especially when it can feel like a race against the clock.
There are certainly no shortage of vultures (scammers) whose marketing preys on such fears: Legacybox, among others. They undoubtedly benefit from inciting your rush
That's it. Those hucksters pre-date digital.

Quote:

To speak plainly: be patiently studious. Yes, you probably should’ve done this ~10 (~20?) years ago, but panicking now ain’t gonna solve nothin’. Especially if your tackling this as I did, with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject. Taking the time to get the lay of the land will pay off in spades. Even if you ultimately decide not to do this yourself, you will assuredly have developed some discernment / assessment ability. Which you’ll need… lotta shifty folk in these waters, sadly.
This is excellent advice, and what I've said for many years now. -- although I do somewhat instill some sense of urgency when it comes to late 70s and early 80s tapes, because those are legit failing now en masse. Not mold, which is correctable(ish), but outright oxide shedding (total loss).

Quote:

On the other end of this spectrum are the ‘perfectionists’. Those who will always be lingering about to ensure your efforts feel… “inadequate”. To satiate them comes at a price
The problem here is that some people refer to basic quality as "perfection". It's too often used as an excuse to accept crap conversion work.

A true perfectionist sits in Avisynth, DaVinci, Premiere, and others, in order to tweak every pixel. That's insane -- unless I'm getting paid $$$,$$$ by a movie studio, in order to show it on a 100' movie screen.

No, what I advocate is simply clean video, as it exists on the tape. Not butchered due to cheap/garbage equipment, lazy methods, etc. Don't show me some wiggly video, distorted aspect ratio, the image overexposed, and out of sync. Too often, over the decades, people use the total BS term "VHS quality" in reference to their own poor work. That's not VHS, that's them sucking at capturing VHS.

To acquire the clean video, you need basic video tools. Not "basic" to the understanding of somebody that knows nothing about video. But rather "basic" in the video world.
That means
- TBCs in use,
- a capture card that doesn't crush/compress the signal,
- and a VCR that faithfully(ish) plays the audio/video.

That's NOT a big ask. It's not perfection in any way.

Perfection is
- the nuance between JVC and Panasonic brand S-VHS VCRs
- the nuance between DataVideo, Cypress, and other known-good TBCs
- the nuance between lossless capturing codecs, or even MPEG capturing at post-DVD bitrates

I gladly discuss nuance, but even some of the "perfectionist" topics bores me. For example, Avisynth'ing everything pixel on every frame, tweaking sharpening, upscaling, etc. It's great to have a place for those discussions, but it's not the bread-and-butter of the capture task at hand (or even the post-processing).

Quote:

Capturing Essence
Perspective can make all the difference, reader. Instead of thinking “I should’ve done this a long time ago.”, consider “In doing this now, I am blessed that an abundance of knowledge and advice has been explored, amassed and curated.” Likewise, instead of nitpicking at the imperfections of the medium or your transfers, consider that those very flaws imbue your work with soul; with something that, in our modern culture, is seemingly being sought after.
Yep. :congrats:

Quote:

I dove headfirst into this nonsense with the express purpose of finally being free of this archaic burden… But I came out with a deep respect, understanding and reverence for something I myself had been culturally psy-oped to look down on. If you let it, this is a journey that can go far beyond its initial premise, to provide value independent of the fruits of your labour…
Yep, and still a lot of tape collectors out there, for this reason! Nostalgia is eternal, but "our" nostalgia will die when we do. Just imagine the younger generations that will cherish pre-AI internet searching, or perhaps even the quaintness of holding a phone to talk to somebody elsewhere in the world.

Quote:

Cutting Room Floor
Without mistakes (and better circumstances), this project could’ve cost me less than $1k USD. But I rushed at the start, and it cost me another $1k USD. Don’t be like me: DON’T RUSH.
Nah, $1k is a good budget. When you're done, just resell it. That $1k investment could turn into only a few hundred lost, or break-even, or even a profit (that you can use to take your parents out for a nice steak dinner!)

Quote:

Hardware I Used:
JVC HR-S7500U
Old (i.e. runs Windows XP natively) Dell Desktop
I-O Data GV-USB2
- VCR is good
- XP box was probably fine.
- GV-USB2 not the best, but you can easily do worse, and maybe a half-dozen better choices

What you lack is frame TBC, and that can present in ugly ways, especially for audio sync. To use a crass analogy, not having TBCs is like barebacking with a hooker. You risk STDs, or even crotch goblins. TBCs are protection from bad things that can happen when working with videotapes. The 7500U should have a line TBC, so you did have some protection, but it wasn't 99-100%, more like 50%. You took risks, not sure if it worked (having not seen the end results).

Overall, I think you blog entry was quite good.
I laughed, I nodded, I cocked my head.
I appreciated the quality of the writing -- the use of bold, punctuation, metaphor, the thesaurus. :)

Kudos. :tiphat:

That was worth my time. :congrats:

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98352)
As I was working on the project some friends were asking: "is this some audiophile-tier stuff?" I'd reply that I didn't think so, a lot of it seemed practical and reasonable and understandable, to a point, I think. Though I can't really say, I've never been audiophile either. But that's why I also felt it was important to find charm in the imperfections, though that too only to a certain degree.

Audiophiles are nuts, and believe in the craziest stuff. I put audiophiles in the same box with anti-vaxxers and anarchists. Hmmm.... funny how those all start with "A". :hmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34 (Post 98373)
there are tools

That really distills video capture to a phrase. It's just a task, and you need proper tools.

People that whine about it are the same people who wall-mount without a stud finder (tool), then get all mad that their TV fell on the floor and smashed to pieces. They tend to be lazy, uneducated, and proud of it. They'd rather watch TikTok, or play a video game, instead of learning stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverlikethis (Post 98375)
I'm afraid I don't have enough experience or knowledge to agree or disagree on this front. I'm a tad skeptical though.

Skepticism is a fine line between wisdom and stupidity. Proceed with caution.

Again, good blog, I approve. :)


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