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My blog post?
Hello, hope all is well.
I recently took on the endeavor of converting my VHS tapes to Digital and ended up writing a blog post about my experience and feelings: https://foreverliketh.is/blog/vhs-to-digital/ This forum was a priceless resource throughout and though I don't exclusively sing its praises in the post, I believe I made its worth clear. The intention of this post was one of advice to others and gratitude for this website, VHS and a couple of other things. I didn't always end up following 100% of lordsmurf 's advice, but I really appreciated its existence and that of the countless others here who contribute. I'd love to hear thoughts and comments, and if there's anything in particular you feel really needs correcting, I'd be more than happy to update it. All the best. |
I think your picture is clipping.
How did it go with no frame TBC or frame synchronizer? Did it show any dropped or inserted frames in VirtualDub? |
I hadn't seen that DigitalFaq Meme haha.
I think a fair number of people want the "best" results when capturing VHS and that's what leads to the rabbit hole - too many variables and reading opinions without seeing evidence (video samples) of their claims as to why one capture chain or device is better than another in a certain situation. I prefer to be "shown" specifically why (and how much) something is better than an alternative to keep the opinions/subjectivity to a minimum and not "told" that something is better without evidence. It very well may be the case that the "recommended" methods and hardware here truly are ideal IF hardware availability, ease of use, and cost (both money involved and time involved) are removed from the equation. Yet, I don't see a big head to head comparison that shows most popular methods of conversion and video samples of the results of each (that are all captured from the same source tape) that you should expect to get with each method. If there was one capture chain that cost $3k (that requires multiple computers and is done in several steps) versus a method that costs $200 (and is done in a single step with all items available currently on Amazon) and that user personally cannot not tell the difference or the difference observed to that user was negligible, why would they ever be encouraged to go with the $3k setup? Each method/hardware chain will have pros and cons, so you can't really say that one method is the "best" for all situations. I think if people STARTED their capture journey by looking at possible end-results-to-be-expected with each method and chain done on an identical/ideal source, there would be a lot less confusion surrounding the topic. My guess is that's why you like Video Capture Guide's YouTube channel - he provides evidence and direct comparisons when changing one variable at a time in the capture chain or process. It's not exactly broad ranging in terms of devices tested at a time, but it will give a good idea of what you should expect with the devices being compared if you had to choose between one or the other. What I am suggesting is that videos like that be considered in reverse (look at the results FIRST) and then go back to the part of the video where you see how that was achieved and if that's too complicated or cost prohibitive, go to the next best looking result and see how that was done. A good comparison would have data to go along with the videos to consider as well, such as revealing number of dropped frames, deinterlacing issues, size of the final file per hour, total time and cost involved etc. |
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Meaning to say, I believe the tapes were the largest variable in the process. Not the absence of any additional equipment. That's, ofc, just my experience / opinion. Quote:
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I recently bought a modern cassette player and everywhere I read talks about how garbage they are, particularly bringing up the sounds the player generates. But I like the hum! Take from that what you will. |
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I got ya. Well good luck with your captures. I hope it goes well.
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That "word of caution" Reddit posts irritates me, and you shouldn't link to it.
It's a reminder of a sad era for me, for our family. During the back half of the pandemic, in late 2021, several family members had sudden declines in health. We lost them in 2022. My attention was often on that, not video. I tried my best to maintain composure, to keep operations running smoothly, but I couldn't always do it. That was the only guy who did not care, even after he was told the situation. Everybody else was quite understanding, and several reached out to console me/us. I'm still trying to heal, to move forward, but that page isn't helping. Every time I see it, hear about it, it brings back feelings of sadness and loss. It was just for a single tape project. It wasn't worth all this pain. :( |
This is a frustrating thread.
I see this at the beginning. Quote:
That really isn’t good to be done with your project and not know what clipping is and not know that you can prevent dropped frames. Quote:
I don’t care what he does with his project. I just hate for the new people to be mislead. |
On the topic of clipping, heck I understand it but I don't really adjust my TBC nor capture card's proc amp to counter it and just leave it at it's default settings, why? Well I suppose I'm not comfortable with needing to tweak it and just let it's default values handle everything.
Which, in comparison to not using the CDM 640, helps with the whites. https://imgsli.com/Mjg5MzIw Personally looking at the image in the blog post, it looks like it is suffering from crushed blacks. You can't see any detail in the groom's suit. At least it isn't a stupidly bright mess that hurts my eyes.. I've seen captures like that on YouTube.. |
Maybe Im being harsh. I don’t think so though.
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That specific TBC was about $1k when new (20 years ago), mostly sold to overseas broadcast facilities that were based on budget end tapes (S-VHS, Hi8). It did rough PAL<>NTSC formats conversion ("good enough" for the small TVs used in those locales). Like other Cypress, it was ruined with bad chips in latter years, and those bad units are vastly more common to find. Quote:
This is pretty easy to recreate -- just use lower-end gear, no frame TBC. That 7500 is actually a recommended JVC, but it can have some aggression issues with NR/values, and cannot be turned off. The 9500 is similar. Note that I keep both a 7500 and 9500 in my arsenal, but it's never my first deck. It does have strengths that make it desirable. A main concern I've always had about the GV-USB2 is that it respects IRE 0, as used in Japanese NTSC (where the card is from) and PAL. Only PAL users ever praise it. Even then, even for IRE 0, it's always seemed dark by default. I bought one, I never use it beyond testing. So: - IRE 0 - dark card - no TBC - 7500 AGC After you're done some of these things for decades, it's really obvious where the issue might be. Quote:
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If someone is coming from YouTube then I can understand not knowing some of those things. I just don’t see it coming from here because they mention it a lot. Im just trying to give some honest input which OP asked for at the beginning.
Anyways if OP is still taking request for things to change then I would say mention the dropped frames. |
I wonder if this:
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It’s soo strange that someone made a page about this site and they have nothing to prevent dropped frames like that. It seems like he put more work into the page than he did researching what to do for his project. Then he was soo defensive about the gear recommendation. I’m not a gray beard either. Well a little gray. I’m 35. I was really clueless before this site myself.
There’s no real particulars either about what software he used or if he captured losslessly. It’s just a few stereotypes that repeat stuff he probably read off of Reddit. There’s no valuable information. |
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Heck, I'm in my 20s and I was just as clueless as you Gary, I was the perfect kind of person to be swept by the YouTubers recommending Elegato's.. I actually could've stuck that route as that is how I started up digitizing tapes but, shocker. The equipment I was using was not at all giving me ideal results, it "worked" but I personally felt like I was not getting the best possible quality out of those VHS/8mm tapes, I wasn't doing the precious footage of family moments any justice, which is why I invested the time and funds, reading Lordsmurf's posts, ordering a workflow from him and talking to him in PMs to overall try to figure out and understand how to handle this task properly. Now I can say that I am confident enough in capturing my own tapes, even tapes from other people so long as they don't have any mold and other physical damage, which I do inspect for whenever I get VHS tapes specifically. If the signal is completely screwed up and manually tracking doesn't help, then that is when I cut my loses, such as the 1999 Kodak branded VHS Wedding tape, in which I'm trying to determine if it 100% is a copy by figuring out what camera was used to film the footage, hoping that the original video8/vhs-c tape still exists so I can capture that instead. Handling a VCR itself is another story, for now I'm trying to avoid that by carefully inspecting tapes for any mold and wrinkles so that I don't accidentally play them. Usually when I'm done capturing a set of tapes from a family member/close friend, I pop it a known good movie tape and let it run for around 5 minutes, just to see if the VCR is still in good shape. I guess it's funny how I started out with a crappy, not ideal archiving method to capture VHS/Video8 tapes before jumping ship all the way to a high quality archival capture workflow. |
Hello again everyone.
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My post, and I think its self-evident, is not a technical one. It is my feelings and experience. The image I shared was emotionally significant, not technically so. So, yes, I apologize that I wasn't the most interested in your responses, they're not really the ones I was looking for. Regarding the clipping, I thought you were going to be way more specific with what you're referring to but it turned out to be rather general. For what it's worth I did want to mess with the video levels and histogram, but, as I said, could not. And I think it's within my right to say I feel skeptical, am I mistaken? Particularly when the dropped / inserted frames have no relevancy on the blog's screenshot in particular. --- I'm not sure why this thread was moved to Video Project Help, when I originally put in General Discussion where, given the nature of the kind of blog post it is, I think is more accurate. I'd like to appreciate more the discussion but it's hard to not feel some hostility. Unwarranted imo, given: -how it's just a small post on my personal website (very, very small audience) -the main points of the article are, I think, reasonable -and I came, immediately after posting, to transparently receive feedback. Is my post really as bad, for beginners, as recommending Elgato? |
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Now then, the intention of your post was apparently about the blog itself, how it discusses capturing, and not the actual capturing. And I'll be glad to give my non-technical thoughts to you when time permits. |
I meant what I said. This whole thread seems troll like anyways IMO. If you have a question start a new thread or use the search bar.
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But even if it were trolling -- which I don't think it is -- giving benefit of the doubt is the defense. I plan to give the feedback he wants, within the confines he has requested. In this sort of situation, if it really were an attempt to troll, all you'd do is make the troll look like an ass. But again, I don't see that here. I have a busy night ahead of me, but I'll look at the blog more closely in a few days. :) |
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You have described that you are not at all interested in the technical discussion, but rather an evaluation/review of your actual blog post about it. Having read the posts here as thoroughly as you mention, did it really not cross your mind that the first question would probably not be about your prose, but about your workflow? Especially considering that in what seems like a weird attempt at being 'fair', you include a link to a discussion that basically describes a Reddit poster's rather negative view of this forum's host? I'm not trying to be a jerk or combative, but - how did you think this was going to go? As for the blog post itself, the very first image is frustrating. Snow? Mushy snow? Mushy upscaled snow? Is this an advertisement for how capture can go badly? Then your very first paragraph is also frustrating. It sounds like you are blaming VHS itself for mold problems. VHS tapes don't grow mold all by themselves, storage conditions are incredibly important - which is why they put those cute little pictures on the VHS label sheets back in the day showing the various conditions that are bad for your tapes. Not the tape's fault, just as is not Super8 film's fault if the reels were stored in a humid environment and grew cooties. After that, it's a typical traditional blog post, itemizing places you've visited and your thoughts on them. Useful, but the overall message here seems to be "do your own research" - not what worked for you, or didn't work for you, or why - except some probably needless nose-thumbing at 'perfectionists'. There's another image that you want no comments on, which is great, because it is cropped and upscaled and indicative of not much at all, really. Therefore to me the post amounts to "I did this thing!" and not much more, which I guess brings me right back to: you brought this to a very technical forum asking for input, but you don't want to hear about the technical parts - yeah, that might not have been the best strategy. |
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Your feelings regarding my opening paragraph also potentially paint an uncompassionate picture. My father made a mistake, everyone does. But, yes, I also DO question the viability of a medium where certain climates make it very difficult to ideally store it. Whether I blame that on VHS itself, the history leading up to it, the creators, it makes no difference, it's just a shame. But your inconsiderate, potentially callous, lack of sympathy for my father's loss says plenty on its own, I think. |
Thank you for the laugh.
I think Gary was actually right about this one. Have a terrific day. |
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I think you’re talking about me. If you think I was a jerk then that’s me. Not the whole group. There really not unwelcoming to beginners. The people that I know know more than me are the ones that help. I thought about sending you some links to answer your question about clipping. Then I thought he doesn’t really want the answers to any of that. He could look at post #11 and see what I’m talking about or he could look it up with the search bar but he said he’s not really interested in discussing anything about capture. Any information about his workflow is off limits and he’s fine with his video dropping or inserting frames and that’s not something he’s looking for advice on. Then I thought well I don’t really have anything to talk to him about. There’s elephants in the room you don’t want addressed and they aren’t perfectionist stuff. It’s basic things. Anyways it’s good that you found advice here that helped you even though idk what advise you followed. A lot of people wouldn’t be happy with the drops and inserts especially if they see what it looks like once you get a good capture and edit in hybrid. It’s good to tell the whole story and tell about your dropped and inserted frames. Here’s another video on clipping. You have to go to 5:30 https://youtu.be/KiLOTF9dN9Y?si=wX8Ga6-5khfHj4Sa. Not meaning to be hostile it’s just a very narrow thing you wanna talk about. If you’re wondering about any questions to do with capture feel free to ask someone. Good luck with your captures. |
I'll still be getting back to the OP in coming days, when time permits. And apparently reading posts here, as I can only skim right now.
Some quick points: - There should be no hostility at this site. It's not Reddit or Twitter. - Sometimes bluntness is misread as hostility. Bluntness is often given to not allow any misunderstanding, and is without malice. So "it sucks" rather than "it's not the best quality". But it's not some sort of personal attack, but rather discussing in no uncertain terms. In general, if bluntness is marked as "I'm intentionally being blunt here" or some such, then we know the intent is helpful and good-hearted, even if rough/blunt/honest, and such comments may be allowed. (Note that "blunt" posters need to be that way in moderation. We don't need members with bad attitudes crapping on the forum.) - To a degree, proper care of VHS tapes had a luck factor. - Having a conversation (a review, feedback, whatever) -- free of the technicals -- will be an interesting conversation, and one I'll be happy to have with you. Perhaps this site needs more "success stories" like this. More about content, less about tech. Obviously we will point out the technical flaws, discuss how it could have been done better. And yet, a good conversation can be had by all. Back soon. :) |
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Sadly it's probably a bit late now but here is the name of a well respected US business specialising in tape remediation and disaster recovery, with an impressive track record and clientele: http://www.specsbros.com/ Some people can be just mean. Instead of admitting to a customer that something like tape mould remediation is beyond their skills and equipment and refer the customer on to someone else who can deal with the mould problem that they themselves cannot, they can bluff their way through, claiming or implying that nobody can fix the problem. And so tragically the customer ditches their valuable recordings believing all is lost. Some businesses advertise the boast that they never farm out work to another company or specialist, implying that they can do it all inhouse and at a very high level, which often is not true. A company of integrity would place in a prominent place on their website the names of other vendors and agencies who can do the specialist work that they cannot do themselves. In the end that is a win for everyone IMO. |
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What I'll do here is quote your piece, and reply in-line as I read it (again). Quote:
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Furthermore, "Technology Connections" on Youtube is a complete numbnuts when it comes to video. He's proclaimed himself an expert at everything technology, but anybody that knows anything about what he covers knows that he's a fraud. He makes clickbait ********* nothing more. Quote:
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The only real complex aspect is/was the "capitalistic greed", due to devices not performing as claimed. To some degree, you have to already know about video and the devices to know when those companies were full of BS. But with VHS ingest/capture, it's almost entirely in the rearview. Many of the companies don't even exist anymore. At this late date, the 2020s, many of us (the video community) know which companies were lying, or which made great hardware/software (including freeware, not just payware). But, of course, to know the score, you'll have to read up, find those communities, connect with those people. But then the next problem is (1) people not verifying sources, then reading/comprehending those sources (2) other people who say stuff, but in actuality know nothing, and should keep their yap shut, in order to not confuse the newbies --- aka all the "content creators" on Youtube. I'm not as concerned about "convenience" (nice way of saying "lazy"), the older tech, or the importance of the memories. All of that stuff just is what it is. Quote:
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A true perfectionist sits in Avisynth, DaVinci, Premiere, and others, in order to tweak every pixel. That's insane -- unless I'm getting paid $$$,$$$ by a movie studio, in order to show it on a 100' movie screen. No, what I advocate is simply clean video, as it exists on the tape. Not butchered due to cheap/garbage equipment, lazy methods, etc. Don't show me some wiggly video, distorted aspect ratio, the image overexposed, and out of sync. Too often, over the decades, people use the total BS term "VHS quality" in reference to their own poor work. That's not VHS, that's them sucking at capturing VHS. To acquire the clean video, you need basic video tools. Not "basic" to the understanding of somebody that knows nothing about video. But rather "basic" in the video world. That means - TBCs in use, - a capture card that doesn't crush/compress the signal, - and a VCR that faithfully(ish) plays the audio/video. That's NOT a big ask. It's not perfection in any way. Perfection is - the nuance between JVC and Panasonic brand S-VHS VCRs - the nuance between DataVideo, Cypress, and other known-good TBCs - the nuance between lossless capturing codecs, or even MPEG capturing at post-DVD bitrates I gladly discuss nuance, but even some of the "perfectionist" topics bores me. For example, Avisynth'ing everything pixel on every frame, tweaking sharpening, upscaling, etc. It's great to have a place for those discussions, but it's not the bread-and-butter of the capture task at hand (or even the post-processing). Quote:
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- XP box was probably fine. - GV-USB2 not the best, but you can easily do worse, and maybe a half-dozen better choices What you lack is frame TBC, and that can present in ugly ways, especially for audio sync. To use a crass analogy, not having TBCs is like barebacking with a hooker. You risk STDs, or even crotch goblins. TBCs are protection from bad things that can happen when working with videotapes. The 7500U should have a line TBC, so you did have some protection, but it wasn't 99-100%, more like 50%. You took risks, not sure if it worked (having not seen the end results). Overall, I think you blog entry was quite good. I laughed, I nodded, I cocked my head. I appreciated the quality of the writing -- the use of bold, punctuation, metaphor, the thesaurus. :) Kudos. :tiphat: That was worth my time. :congrats: Quote:
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People that whine about it are the same people who wall-mount without a stud finder (tool), then get all mad that their TV fell on the floor and smashed to pieces. They tend to be lazy, uneducated, and proud of it. They'd rather watch TikTok, or play a video game, instead of learning stuff. Quote:
Again, good blog, I approve. :) |
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