SVHS to VHS DVD recorder for passthrough?
 

Ran across a $20 Pioneer VHS DVD Recorder.

Since I have SVHS tapes, I haven't paid much attention to these machines because I got the impression you used them also for playing the VHS tapes to be captured.

But now faced with a $20 dea, can it be used for passthru from a SVHS deck?

For $20 I'll gamble it's a good machine.

Sure, you can, assuming your Pioneer supports pass-through mode.

It's a Pioneer DVR-RT500 and judging from the prices on eBay, it's nothing special. $20 w/o remote.

But I did score an Epson Moviemate 30s for another $20. Never knew they made a unit that did all that

Only few DVD recorders known to have line TBC during passthrough such as the Pana's ES10 and ES15, doesn't hurt to try though.

I have two Pioneer HDD recorders, DVR 520H and DVR 530H. I didnt buy them for their passthrough effect but I discovered by using them that both straighten flagging. I mentioned this in an older previous thread. I suspect other major competing brands and models do the same. Just because one make or model is known by some to perform this function doesnt mean other makes and models dont.

That's also PAL, which is known to have a few brands beyond NTSC's ES10/15 limitation.

- For "best quality for VHS" LSI-based JVC, LiteOn, etc -- does not.
- In NTSC, Pioneer, Philips, Magnavox, RCA, etc --- does not.
- Certain Toshiba do, but not anywhere as strong as Panasonic ES10/15 -- so do, but not equal.

PAL got lucky here.
PAL also is lucky with quality S-VHS VCRs for about half the price still, all things being equal. (NTSC has some cheap junk, but that's not I refer to.)

The problem here is most people don't know what they're looking at. So it can "hurt to try", in terms of the wallet, or in terms of the tape transfer quality.

It's just a pissed away $20 bill. NTSC Pioneers lacking quality TBC (or any TBC) is a known known. I hate to see people waste money.

That specific unit is ancient, and pre-dates anything known to have a line TBC. 99% odds is has nothing, like other Pioneer of the era.

Know that I heavily reviewed NTSC DVD recorders from 2003-2009.

lordsmurf, it looks like you somehow not aware that all European (NOT UK) models of VCRs/DVDs, etc. have full support of NTSC as well. And it is not the "PAL60", like in UK models.

That's not accurate.

Well, may be not all "all", but most of the brands I'm aware of, like JVC, Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer.
Do you have a specific brand in mind? I mean useful for the purpose of capturing.

Again, not accurate. It's not true NTSC, just quasi support.

- For VCRs, it's outright false.
- For DVD players/recorders, it really depends. Digital data is not the problem, output analog D>A is the issue, and few have more than PAL-only or NTSC-only output.

"quasi support"? What does it even mean? And where this is coming from? How do you tell "true" support from "quasi" support?
I have European JVCs. They play NTSC tapes nicely. And I have European Sony DVD player - it has no problem pass through NTSC.
All I have to do is to switch my capture card to NTSC.

"quasi" means it's not a full NTSC 29.97 interlaced output. It's merely "good enough to view", not to capture, as it's a not a true format.

I have PAL VCRs and DVD recorders. The only item that has true NTSC output is the ES10, buried in the menus (and somewhat obtuse at that). So, for example, I am 100% certain no PAL JVC VCR has NTSC output.

Your capture card will not understand the NTSC output of a PAL VCR/DVD, because it's not NTSC.

This is 20-25 year old common knowledge in the capturing world.

Perhaps, you're confusing with UK models, which support PAL60 output, where NTSC color is being converted to PAL, while original NTSC FPS and number of lines are being kept.
As previously mentioned, all I have to do is to switch my capture card to NTSC to start capture.
And yes, I was capturing NTSC from JVC VCR and from Sony camcorder through Sony DVD player. All were European models.
Let me assure you, the European models do support true NTSC playback in both VCRs and DVD Players.

P.S. I just attached a screenshot with signal parameters. Do you see anything there which indicates the signal is not true NTSC?

There are two types of NTSC compatibility in the EU market, PAL60 and NTSC 4.43, One requires a TV to be multi standard, the other works with a native PAL TV, I don't remember which one is which but you can look it up, Aside from that I'm not personally aware of DVD recorders sold for the EU market that passed NTSC signal without alteration, it's good to know.

Among all models I had PAL60 was in UK models only and you would need just regular PAL TV to watch it. All EU models had NTSC 4.43 and it would require multi-system TV.

Read this 2022 thread: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...back-ntsc.html

That explains it in more detail for you.

NTSC 4.43 = not NTSC
PAL-60 (PAL60) = not NTSC

^ Arguably, neither of those are even formats.

For once, even Wikipedia is accurate: "NTSC 4.43 is a pseudo-system that transmits a NTSC color subcarrier of 4.43 MHz instead of 3.58 MHz[49] The resulting output is only viewable by TVs that support the resulting pseudo-system (such as most PAL TVs)"

Also, UK and EU models of VCRs or DVD player/recorder have no major differences.

So, again,
- for VCRs, not true
- for DVD players/recorders, it completely depends on the D>A abilities, but with most following the cheap/easy pseudo/quasi output.

I can't be any clear here.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.

And now you know. :)

Well, nobody mentioned NTSC 4.43 until latreche34 brought it up and I repeated it. And that was my mistake, because my capture card specifically said NTSC_M, which corresponded to 3.58 MHz. So, your counterarguments are irrelevant here. And even if it would be 4.43, how does it matter as long as all your devices support it?

Nobody claims PAL60 is NTSC. Not sure why even to bring it up and argue.

Then why bother 2 separate lines?
Just FYI, besides having different power plugs, EU models support true NTSC playback as well as record and playback SECAM (in MESECAM format).

lordsmurf, let me assure you, the facts are really stubborn things. No matter how much you discuss and argue - they always will be there and they won't change.

That makes no sense. :huh1:

It's because PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 are essentially the same, two ways to "hack" an analog NTSC video signal to play on PAL systems. Either way, the output is lousy.

Regulations, marketing.

MESECAM is essentially PAL already. Vastly different from NTSC.

I agree. But you don't have the facts here. What you're asserting is untrue.

There difference in PAL and NTSC is color storage, frame rate, and interlacing. It's easy to badly convert, using PAL60 (or NTSC 4.43), and that's how it was done 99% of the time. Proper conversion is much harder, more processing, more steps.

I've been working with PAL and NTSC video for decades now, since the 90s. :wink2:

Well, that's the fact on the ground.
And it is not a one off, it's a pattern. My first multi-system VCR was PANASONIC NV-HD680AM. It even had switch for NTSC playback - 3.58 or 4.43.


Why? I mean if you have to convert colors from NTSC to PAL, then yes, losses are expected, but it is just different sub-carrier frequency, then I don't see any reason for quality loss.

Well, the main difference is chroma handling, so is NTSC. FPS and number of lines are just small technical difference. It is easy to handle.

Actually, I do. You just refuse to accept them.

You keep mentioning interlacing here like it a major factor. I'm not sure why.
Also, there is no conversion. PAL VCR just plays NTSC as a regular NTSC VCR. All you have to have is another circuit to handle NTSC format.
It's not a major problem for manufacturers like JVC.

Any analog processing incur a loss, even for only chroma, Some DVD recorders do have digital format conversion processing if captured from their HDMI output, the losses tend to be minimal but be carful about HDMI, only very few from back in the DVD era that produced true rec.601 480i/576i video signal, the majority were 720p or 480p/576p at a minimum.

The interlacing always gets messed with in these PAL/NTSC conversions. It's a very primitive lossy conversion method from the 80s/90s. Zero advancements in hardware PAL/NTSC conversion was made this century in consumer VCRs and DVD recorders. Even "high-end" on-the-fly conversion from the likes of Faroujda, Ektron, etc, all still sucked.

Proper conversion requires non-live (non-linear) slow separation of "larger than frame" chunks. You need to extract all fields, anti-alias as needed, resize or re-color, and it's slow. Even now, in the 2020s, it's a process. I know, because I sometimes do it. Because it is such a process/PITA, I mostly just do it for personal projects --- meaning I won't even do it for paid work.

Video isn't as easy as some people want to think. It's not a trivial matter of plugging in something bought from eBay, Amazon, Walmart/Asda, etc, unless you don't care how bad it looks. Most people don't accept what is now known as "potato quality" video. They already want HD and 4K, so we'd better not screw up low-end SD VHS/DVD.

I think I know where the confusion is.
lordsmurf, there is absolutely NO PAL<->NTSC conversion in this scenario.
NTSC tape is used in PAL VCR. It doesn't convert it to PAL. It just plays it as is.
PAL tapes are not converted to NTSC. They will be played as PAL. Period.

I think I remember reading some DVD recorders did both native NTSC-NTSC and PAL-PAL passthrough, But the recommended ones such as the Panasonic ES-10/15 and their European counterparts did not as far as I know, I think that's what LS is talking about.

Correct.

Actually, DMR-ES10 PAL is one of the few with that feature. NTSC>NTSC, PAL>PAL, no conversion.

NTSC tape in PAL VCR is converted/output to PAL60. It does not output native NTSC.

Not that few. There are many like that. And I have one - Sony RDR-GX350.
That alone just confirms PAL VCR can read NTSC tapes.
But again, that conversion to PAL60 is implemented in UK models.
EU models output standard NTSC signal. I have 3 such units. Do you want the model numbers?

The JVC HR-S7600AM VCR I have plays NTSC tapes in native NTSC and PAL tapes in native PAL, It can convert however if you change the output format, but only to PAL60 or NTSC 4.43, it does not convert PAL to NTSC or vise versa.

Well, yeah, that's the rare AM. That was one of the selling features.
Not PAL-only E, EU, EK.

And there is Panasonic NV-W1 (AG-W1 in US) what is able to play all formats, including SECAM etc in native format or to convert between them. Sadly it has no S-Video output and line TBC, so in those rare cases when I need to record something from SECAM (with converting to PAL of course) or NTSC (without converting) I use it with ES10 what supports both PAL-PAL and NTSC-NTSC.
Otherwise NV-W1 quality is decent. If they had made a s-vhs deck like that... ;)

Samsung, Panasonic, JVC, Aiwa, Toshiba and other brands made multi-standard VCRs that can playback and output the native format of 2 or 3 color standards in addition to the conversion, some of them high end S-VHS, others are just basic VHS, but I think the discussion here is about DVD recorders.