Which Pinnacle Dazzle model is better for capture?
 

Hello!

I am very new to this community in terms of on this site here, but I have been collecting and digitizing VHS tapes for several years.

I originally used to do VHS to DVD, up until my DVD/Combo recorder had broken, and I considered a better model than just having to buy more blank discs.

I asked a friend of mine who had very good knowledge on capturing and VCR's and went ahead and suggested I tried using a Pinnacle Dazzle DVC100. He ended up telling me the card had some excellent S-Video as the output, and I ended up getting the card a few Xmas's ago (and ended up realizing it wasn't the DVC100 but the DVCPTENAM model, which was the one I wasn't looking for)

There's a reason why I wanted a DVC100 and that was for it's capture of the Line 21 VBI at the top, for both capture of XDS and also Closed Captioning from TV recorded VHS tapes. I wanted both to be extractable, since I didn't want to use a DVD recorder, just to grab the info. The newer model however seems to have stripped this feature, yet allowed me to capture Macrovision protected VHS tapes without causing the pulse contrasting.

I later ended up getting the glossy black DVC100 (which ended up being the model with the datalines I wanted, and I continue to use it for my transfers today.) I use a modified CC Decoder program he wrote that easily grabs the XDS and Closed Captions, meaning all I need is for the interlaced VBI at the top. However this model doesn't handle Macrovision well (hence I feel why the datalines were implemented in these models) and I ended up having a setup, same one as one of my friends who uses Pinnacle Studio and a Panasonic AG-1980 to digitize his tapes.

Other than the datalines difference, the only thing I noticed was the RCA input in the DVCPTENAM seemed to not have as much checkerboarding, and the head-switch noise had some different cropping angles compared to the DVC100. But the S-Video seemed to be only thing the same thing that stayed the same for the quality. I don't know if there was a difference in hardwares in chipsets, but I have drivers setup the same method as another friend, which allows both of them to be used in Pinnacle Studio.

Any files I transfer, I do MPEG-2 for the decent compression ratio. if I need to capture loss-less quality, I use the DV option, and clip out the AVI files in VirtualDub2's AVI editor. That's my transfer process from the Dazzles.

But which option is better? I use the DVC100 for it's feature on the VBI, incase I need to grab the XDS and Closed Captions from the broadcast very quickly, so that I could date certain tapes with the PIN time codes. But the DVCPTENAM model has less cropping, and seems to give a same result, minus the datalines and works well with retail tapes with copy protection.

Are Dazzle DVC100's good or are DVCPTENAM's better? I'm coming here to ask since the community I am in seems to love the DVC100, yet I want to make sure if they're the right choice to use. Most of the friends I know either use a Panasonic AG-1980 or a TBC S-VHS VCR, and the results they get seem to be very clean.

Please let me know,

Thanks! :laugh:
-Ashton (boomereboot)

Welcome. :)

All Dazzles are terrible. Dazzle is known for bad levels (overbright luma, etc), and soft focus quality. It's not as awful as an Easycap, but it's also not an actual Pinnacle, or ATI, or Osprey, or others.

Pinnacle Studio is terrible software -- very infamous, highly unstable.

"Checkered" composite is the norm, not the exception. It's crosstalk from the luma and chroma being smashed into the same carrier wire -- which is why you want s-video ("separated video", with chroma and luma on different wires).

Other cards can capture CC data, especially ATI AIW, but it's also not the easiest to do. Capturing CC never is.

Most likely, you'll have multiple captures. One to grab CC and/or XDS, another for actual quality video. That's also the norm. Sometimes, some functions cannot be single passed without compromises.

Also, FYI, Pinnacle is not Dazzle. It never was, it never will be.
Quick history lesson:
- Dazzle was a company that made awful quality capture cards in the late 90s to early 00s. Mostly external, mostly USB. For years, they were called "Razzle Dazzles" (like the candy) or "Razzles" as a derogatory nickname.
- Are you familiar with corporate M&A, licensing, etc? Pinnacle didn't really have external cards, and they were missing out on that market. Rather than in-house R&D/production, they chose to license the rights to make and market the Dazzle cards. Pinnacle eventually did R&D/manufacture their own cards (some slightly better, some vastly better).
- A few years later, Avid acquired Pinnacle, for very similar reasons -- Avid wanted a consumer product line to complement their professional line. Pinnacle, Dazzle, and a few low-end Avid products were lumped into the Pinnacle brand name. But the Dazzle cards were still unchanged, still Dazzles, never Pinnacles.
- As you often find in the M&A world, in the 2010s, Avid re-split from Pinnacle a few years later, and sold that consumer product line to Corel (which had just bought Roxio, Ulead, and several other big players of 2000s video). Dazzle was still not changed. Like Pinnacle and Avid before it, Corel/Alludo considers Dazzle cards low-end cheap consumer cards that sell for good profit.

Thank you for noting that. :laugh:

Really the only reason I got the Dazzle cards were to archive the CC and XDS.

Someone recommended I try vhs-decode so that the VBI could be properly preserved. I have a few tapes with either ABC PLUS (Program Listings Update Service) and also some NTSC Teletext from CBS (ExtraVision) that I'm willing to extract if a software comes available for such.

It doesn't seem like CCExtractor seems to support the TEXT1 or TEXT2 decoding (which is what the ABC PLUS text guide option uses) Teletext ssems only extractable by using vhs-decode for what I'm seeing.

Really I just want to know a good capture card that would be able to capture the VBI properly. Any thoughts? (if you would want me to move this thread to one asking on what's a good card to capture all parts of the VBI, I can do that if this is a tad bit off-topic)

Thanks!
-Ashton

From my understanding vhs-decode really is the only option these days to capture any VBI data. That and using external TBCs tend to knock out that kind of data by replacing it with it's own from what I've heard.

It's quite the rabbit hole, so good luck if you want to go for it. If the quality of the capture itself ain't to your liking I'm thinking you could probably sync the CC data with a conventional capture.

I don't have a lot to say as I myself don't care about preserving Close Caption data in the age of AI auto subtitles.
Closest I've done was rip Japanese subtitles from a DVD and use SubtitleEdit to translate the image based subtitles to a text file YouTube understands.

There's been methods to capture VBI for 25 years now (at least). But the bigger question is this: Why? There's really not much purpose to capturing VBI data. VBI = vertical blanking interval. There's just not much useful data located there. Not image, not audio. There's nothing special about vhs-decode here (aside from maximum effort for mediocre output; though possibly better than low-end Dazzle from low-end VCRs).

This has always been the issue. The cards/methods that can capture this range are generally subpar. This is why the multiple captures are needed.

You'll also find that generative AI subtitles are generally better than older CC data. CC has a huge % of errors. (I've watched CC for many years, due to a hearing impaired family member.)

For what I'm seeing, some people might just want to preserve the data broadcasted off-air.

I've seen no other capture method that would be able to decode the VBI for Teletext. Not many people know that VHS tapes carry over small snapshots of Teletext that can be presented and coded back into a webpage.

Teletext predated the Internet. PAL Teletext has been recovered from tapes before, but NTSC still has no tool to decode the VBI signals. Since the United State's view on Teletext flopped, it's important to preserve an extra bit of data that not many people know out, just for historical purposes mainly.

That's the same to say for ABC PLUS (Program Listings Update Service) which for what I'm seeing isn't well documented. https://youtu.be/xZEXeM-jQnQ?feature=shared

If at anything preserving PLUS or Teletext DOES indeed have a purpose, it's just normal Teletext just needs a program, and someone needs to file an issue for CCExtractor to support T1/T2 to make ripping PLUS Guide data easier. :congrats:

Seems like the only conventional way I found was using GrapthStudio and a capture card that has a VBI pin. Here is a videohelp discussion on it.

And another

Never tested it myself

It mostly involves 20+ year-old PCI CX cards, and special software.

Here's a "recent" conversation from 2019:
https://www.tapeheads.net/threads/te...rom-vhs.74824/

Yep, more good adds here, thanks for posting those links. :)

It always amazes (and amuses) me how I pop up in old conversation that I've long ago forgotten about.

Because of my semi-deaf family member, I dabbled in CC data extraction many years ago (decades ago). As I said, methods have existed for many years. I probably still have the POS PCI CX (Aver) card that I used way back when.

So Decode might be the modern way but it's not the only way, I see. Maybe I'd mess around with trying to get CC. Probably not as I do always trim down the TV recordings I have to remove the main programming like if it's an episode of Cheers or whatever. Dunno how I'd be able to trim the subtitle data along with it.

In my opinion VBI data is neat, but why is it being treated like some holy grail that needs to be preserved at all costs.

Sony DVDirect recorders and their DCR-SR100 camcorder (which has an A/V input, including S-video, and records video into MPEG2 files on its hard drive) support capturing closed captions and XDS data... no special settings needed, it just automatically works. And then if you directly upload the video it records to YouTube, the correct timing, positions, and even colors of the closed captions will be preserved. Same thing if you use a Panasonic DVD recorder: Blue Planet VHS with original Closed Captions

Good to know, always appreciate your posts. :salute:

Yes, most DVD recorders without line TBCs capture the CC data, and has been true since at least 2004.

CCExtractor is used to pull the CC from the MPEG
https://ccextractor.org/public/gener...tsccextractor/

And then the CC can be converted to subtitles (ASS, SSA, etc).

It's not even modern.
- decades-old VCRs are used to extract video,
- decades-old methods are used extract the VBI separate from AV

The only thing "new" is the scripts, but those are based off work from prior decades too (namely BBC's Domesday from the '00s, among others). It's only "modern" because a certain someone misuses that description. VHS is old, VCRs are old, methods to extract data are old. Thus is life when you deal with outdated formats.

FYI, accessing FM data is nothing new. For example, search Google for "read FM data from floppy disks". Or read this Wiki entry.

The real qualifier, "where the rubber meets the road", is the quality of the extraction. There's still much to be desired with that method. We know, and can easily see, that the VHS extraction is subpar to existing equipment. And honestly, I'd trust a DVD recorder more for CC too, as that was industry standard vetted at the time, not part of a mere hobby project. Trust in the tools matters as much as quality, and it's not earned that.

The only people saying this are the video newbies involved in that project. They seem to be "wowed" by "invisible data", not realizing that it is generally worthless. In the few cases that it does contain data, like CC, it's been extractable for decades. So it may be "new to them" (being that they're newbies), but it's not new by any means.

Oh wow, I had no clue those type of Sony models supported that.

I remember reading almost every set-top DVD recorder in the 2000's supported both Closed Captioning and XDS with the use of CCExtractor. I use that program ALOT when doing XDS extracting from a spare Samsung DVD recorder, and it seems to do it's job well just being an XDS capturer (I'm NOT using it to digitize tapes since it has no TBC on it, so it's just a spare DVD recorder to just do XDS extracting)

The only other card I did look into was some of those early WinTV cards and someone sent me a sample of it having the same way of encoding the VBI into the MPEG-2 file.

It seems you have the basic knowledge, and now just need to tie it together.

- 1 pass for the quality audio/video with TBC using s-video -- the a/v capture
- 1 pass for CC capture with DVD recorder (or comparable), then extract -- the data capture

Then a final pass to do whatever is needed -- convert CC to subs, embed XDS, whatever -- merging a/v capture with data capture.

Just put that Dazzle card in the junk drawer (or trash can) where it belong, and get a better quality capture card (for the a/v capture).

I'm having issues understanding some of those links in this thread. The only link in that TapeHeads thread I see, is that github page for vhs-teletext. However I don't see any mention of using it for NTSC Teletext and I thought this program was mainly for PAL Teletext. There's no exact examples showing anything from NTSC Teletext, these are the only ones and they are PAL:

https://al.zerostem.io/~al/teletext/
https://www.teletextarchive.com/
https://archive.teletextart.co.uk/

There's no examples here of NTSC, otherwise they would've shown it. I see nothing on here that supports NTSC Teletext, since there is none. It mentions CX Cards do work with them, yes, but that's for PAL support and also links a vhs-decode/Domesday device that I see on that wiki. (I know those card use the same stuff as the ones suggested)

But I did end up finding another program while searching one that uses that same PCI CX cards, PCITVText

http://www.hounsome.org.uk/pcitvtext...ne%20Features.

However I met in a roadblock as in yes it did mention it supports NTSC, I have many issues with that claim:
* NTSC may work but isn't tested (untested theory if it works)
* The program appears to be one used for a live teletext broadcast, mainly for PAL and SECAM.
* NTSC isn't tested since those broadcasts sunsetted way before this program was created.
* Playing back a tape with Teletext, is NOT the same way as getting it from a live feed. There would be many holes and much bigger samples would be needed to test that. Deconvolution is the reason why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconvolution

Should I note that it wasn't as widespread that Teletext was saved onto VHS tapes until the recent years, and NTSC looking at many articles it seems like that has a confusion of whether not it existed or not (which it did)

This program I cannot use due to the lack of proof of examples for NTSC. I'm not looking for PAL or SECAM. I would need some good examples proving there's a program where someone has recovered NTSC Teletext, that don't use vhs-decode.

I checked GraphStudio & GraphStudioNext (the fork) and so far on the page and I see nothing noting about support for Teletext. It looks like it supports Closed Captioning and XDS, but nothing for Teletext I see there.

Even McPoodle's program (which was in that post that needed that dump file lordsmurf provided) the user was mainly asking to decode EIA-608 Captions, not Teletext.

The other link I get the same thing. No mention of Teletext.

Teletext wasn't broadcasted on Line 21 or 22 of the VBI, and I think that's why we haven't seen any other program, than vhs-decode, be able to support full VBI signals. I've searched and searched and couldn't find any other program that supports the full VBI that's all in the signal, other than Closed Captioning and XDS.

I'm not really a newbie when it comes to that project and I'm just spitting out the facts I was given by people who run that project that have either had much more experience with the vhs-decode project, or just by some that have the best knowledge in stuff like how analog VCRs work and their components, as well as many years of doing archiving VHS tapes, and they want to preserve it since they grew up in that era of Teletext. Someone I know is trying to get into preserving NTSC Teletext and has been providing samples for it to be implemented. PAL is mainly possible due to how much longer it had existed than NTSC's Teletext.

I want to try to preserve anything I have that I know for a fact either has the ABC PLUS or Teletext in the tapes, since Teletext isn't just like Closed Captioning where AI can recreate it. Teletext predated the web, and contains pieces of history needing to be saved. It's video and images but also early HTML webpages. If you're saying Teletext is useless to preserve because it's obsolete, when it's history... Is that same to say if Internet Archive saving old Internet webpages that either include old news or anything very primitive looking, yet valuable to research, is irrelevant?

I really think preserving Teletext is the most important VBI to save, since it's something that is slowly getting closer to crack at making it be possible to view on a modern webpage. Teletext in certain regions were either well-received or forgotten about... Almost lost to time.

-------------------------------------

My apologies if I'm sounding harsh here. I just have been trying to figure out if vhs-decode is really the only program that can decode all the VBI's of NTSC Teletext. I have no interest in doing XDS or Closed Captioning, as like you said, DVD recorders are a perfect Basic and reliable option to digitize them and preserve the colors (like VWestlife mentioned before) I've looked everywhere for such program and I can't seem to find any lead.

If you can find me a program that has proof of testing an NTSC tape signal that was able to grab Teletext from the broadcast and it either predated vhs-decode or is better than vhs-decode, that's all I am looking for. I only see topics of PAL tapes being successfully being recovered and displayed, and nothing about NTSC.

Hmm... :hmm:

It seems the conversation has changed from this:
... to NTSC Teletext. And that's fine.

The main issue with vhs-decode is that it was developed specifically for PAL, and "also does" NTSC, but not very well. This may be one of the few times it's actually useful for VHS, but I cannot say that with any degree of confidence.

From my understanding, NTSC Teletext was somewhat of a still-born vaporware, mostly used by cable companies. I only vaguely remember it from being on our cable box in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_Teletext
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraVision
https://computer.rip/2025-08-25-tele...h-america.html

In this Facebook group, I read:
Q: any particular capture cards that is working well for capturing vhs/vbi?
A: Anything 878a chip-based with the full size PCI card slot. I've had great results with the WinTV capture card. Avoid the "new" capture cards with PCIe slots and reclaimed 878a chips. They're always terrible.

... which is BT8x8 (Brooktree became Conexant in mid '00s).

What years would that be?

I vaguely remember that certain Snell & Willcox boxes could also capture full signal (including VBI).

Just be aware that a great many of the people involved, especially those "at the top", have been doing video capture for less than 5 years. They know no other method of video capture, and poo-poo anything else. Again, just be aware of that fact.

I wish him well. :)

That's not what I said. I wrote that most VBI is worthless. That's the general rule. But all rules have exceptions. CC/XDS/Teletext is an exception. Just know that exceptions never overrule rules. So probably 99% of VBI is worthless, 1% is worth keeping.

That's a different discussion. But yes, sometimes IA does overstep their authority in retaining data. And they are a PITA to work with for removing content.

Probably so. :hmm:

You're fine. :)

I would start by running Google searches, narrowing the results to 2000 to 2010 results, from videohelp.com and doom9.org.

Know that videohelp.com was previously dvdrhelp.com and vcdhelp.com, and that can help if you dive back in the IA (though many 404s exist, forums didn't archive well for years).
Man, this brings back memories: http://web.archive.org/web/200106261...w.vcdhelp.com/

This is the earliest I remember seeing it being discussed here:
https://bbs.boingboing.net/t/recover...rdings/72349/5

The guy I do talk to, has been doing video archiving since I think 2005 (or more than that I think?) and has only recently been getting into vhs-decode, I think mainly for the Teletext part (but also I think he switched to it for another reason I don't know about)

but...

Very appreciated!

I guess I read that one wrong before making the assumption, my apologies for that :(

Happy to here I wasn't being rude, thanks!

------------------

Getting back to this point...

I do apologize for getting off-topic, but seeing you were fine with that, that's fine with me.

However...

I do want to also note that Dazzle advice that you gave to me earlier. From what I've understood by both you and VWestlife, I already have my advice I wanted from the start. If you're okay, I'm not necessarily toss the card or put it away, yet, as I've decided if it's not a a good capture card for doing VHS, I am just probably just either going to use it for capturing either my game's consoles or just use them as an audio line-in digitizer (I don't know if that's a way to recycle them for a better use BUT I am thinking of getting a better capture setup anyways)

I would request that if you can close this thread, since there's nothing else to say about the Dazzle, AND I've gotten the advice, and I do want to embrace the idea of talking about extracting certain things like Teletext in a different thread, however, just so I can continue the topic while being on topic :)

Also I had just learned about the thanking feature on this forum! I'll be sending thanks to all 3 people giving me the good advice here :D

There's nothing more to say about the Dazzle as I understand and I have my method now for doing CC and XDS as advice given! No more talking about it here for me (atleast) on it!

I haven't seen threads closed unless they were somewhat hostile or they went way off topic for a large portion of the thread. This one isn't too bad about that and the CC information in interesting.

Related to close captioning in general, after struggling to get extraction to work using GrapthStudioNext.

Well I managed to get at least having the CC being displayed and dumped as a raw file get working. Wish I could get this method to work but alas.

Also figured out how to get the raw2scc tool to work, needed to add "FFFF" at the beginning otherwise it'll error out.

Used this site to convert the scc to an srt file.

-- merged --

Was going through Microsoft documentations on GraphEdit and it's mainly graphs and found this. Maybe this'll help? Don't have any tapes that would have teletext. That and I'm unsure what to do with the raw file once dumped.

Sadly the graphs only work in XP as they were removed following Windows Vista.

True point. I honestly thought I got too off-topic discussing about the whole Dazzle doing CC Decoding bit. Tbh I just thought I was being a bit rude earlier when I made the replies.

I didn't notice it.