Help deciding on TBC and capture device
First, I'd like to thank the brilliant guys behind this site and how friendly they are, which is the main reason why I bought a membership. Now, on to my questions :)
I've already got a s-vhs player, but what I've been debating on is whether or not I should get a TBC and what kind of capture device I should use. For capture devices, I've been looking at the Canopus ADVC 110 for a while, but from browsing this forum, it seems Canopus is frowned upon for charging high dollar for getting little in return, while other reviews from other sites praise it. I've heard the ATI 600 usb be suggested a couple of times, and also the ATI aiw cards. What I'm simply trying to do is capture some old VHS tapes of my dads from way back when and put them on DVD. I'm not a novice when it comes to video work, having been around the video cleaning scene for about 3 years. But I haven't dealt with the hardware side of things very much. I guess I really just don't know what capture device is worth my money, as I've also come across some ebay deals for the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 and PVR 500. Now, for the TBC side of things. The videos I have for the most part really don't have bad jitter, and what little jitter there is, is mostly taken care of by my s-vhs player. (Which is a JVC BR-S800U, in case you wanted to know) Now, hear me out, I've seen that you reccommend 2 TBC's, but I'd also just like to check my options/open up a little bit. Could you guys take a look at some of the TBC's I've found on eBay and tell me if I'm just barking mad for looking at them or if any of them actually hold value? Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 Link 4 Link 5 Whew, lot of links. For the capture method, your small guide says that MPEG is better for just small time cutting/splicing, and this is more than likely what I'll be doing, as none of the videos I have require any actual "editing" or "heavy editing", just some small cuts here and there. Thanks for taking the time to read all this and reply! |
In addition to all of this, since there seems to be no edit button for posts, for the capture device, I actually would not need the ATI 600 or something like it. I don't need a tuner, and further searching has produced that DV capturing produces a better quality than MPEG. I can edit both types just fine, so editing isn't an issue. I guess I'm just hoping that there's a slightly cheaper alternative to the ADVC110 that can do DV capture and has no problems with sync'ing audio and video.
Also, I see a lot of ATI aiw cards on eBay, but they say they are the PAL format ones. Will those PAL cards work for capturing my VHS footage here, which is NTSC? EDIT: Nevermind, my motherboard doesn't have an AGP slot. Those kinds of capturing devices will not work for me. |
I want to answer this more in depth, but it will be a few more days. In the meantime, I do want to give a few brief answers and comments...
1. Older broadcast rack-mounted TBCs generally don't have much value for VHS-to-DVD transfer work. They were designed with other tasks in mind, and do not always lend themselves to the VHS>DVD process as well as more modern TBCs, such as the TBC-1000 or AVT-8710. 2. The DV format is good for shooting, but it has quality concerns for conversion work. Colors and values tend to get cooked a bit, and you'll see this discussed and debated quite a bit online. I'm of the opinion, as are others, that DV was not created with conversion in mind -- it was created for shooting digital video on cameras. The earliest documents I've ever seen, regarding DV tech, never discussed it as a conversion format. I would suggest high bitrate MPEG-2 is a much better choice for conversion. 3. The ATI 600 has a coax TV tuner input, yes, but you don't have to use it. The card is excellent for capturing video, via s-video or composite input, and can record to several available formats (MPEG-2, lossless AVI, uncompressed AVI). Much of this has been discussed on the forum in the past few months. And I'll reply more in depth this weekend. Back soon. :) |
Ok, look forward to your answer. In the meantime, I don't know how well the ATI 600 USB would work for me, as I use Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit and from reviews from Amazon, many people have a hard time getting it to work since ATI never wrote drivers for Win7. There have also been issues of frame dropping/un-sync issues as well.
Another thing, if I use something like the Hauppauge PVR 250 or the ATI USB stick, do I have to use the software included with each of those items or will I still be able to capture the video with whatever program I chose (i.e., VirtualDub or Premiere Pro)? |
I would assume the ATI 600 with Vdub will work with W7 32 bit because it will work with W7 64 and Vista64 found here with instructions to get it to work on them however Admin can give more accurate and specifics on yours when he has time.
You may not even need these instructions but is given as an example. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...-pre-1727.html I know Virtualdub plus ATI 600 will work with Vista 64, it works on mine but I have only played around with it a couple times. Because I am new at capturing to computer, there are some things I need to get ironed out, I am presently capturing to DVD recorders which is not a bad way of doing it anyway and will likely be the main way I do my capturing. Wait however for Admin's answers to your questions so he can help you make the best decisions, I am new at video capture myself. |
Well, I have to say I am a little disappointed. Paying for advice and not getting it for a week + is slightly ridiculous.
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There was a last-minute change in my weekend travel scheduling. Offline for past three days. And since I'd already claimed the question, it appears others did not respond (pending my reply). So here goes... Quote:
For most people, the TBC-8710 is the best option: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...3167/KBID/4166 The TBC-1000 is excellent, too, but I generally on suggest that one when somebody is also needing a distribution amp (meaning the TBC outputs to multiple capture devices): http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...3167/KBID/4166 Quote:
The ATI 600 is more like the normal car -- versatile, yet quality. The Hauppauge series of cards is more like the truck. It's really good at MPEG, and it can do some lossless/uncompressed AVI with tweaks/hacks, but you take a hit in some areas. For example, Hauppauge is soft-focus quality compared to ATI and some others. And then the software isn't all that enjoyable to use. Great card, but it has a few minor nuisances. Sort of like having limited passenger room, no trunk and lousy mileage. But many people put up with it because it hauls so well (encodes MPEG so well). You'd want a PVR-250 or PVR-350 only from Hauppauge, not the other models. Quote:
Which leads into the next quote... Will ALL of your videos get the same treatment, or do you plan to edit/restore some and not others? If so, then you'll want a versatile setup for sure. Quote:
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Just add new posts, as you've done, if there is a change or more to add. :) Quote:
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Link: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/guides/vid...ped-frames.htm Quote:
You can capture lossless/uncompressed AVI with VirtualDub with most cards, it's been discussed on the forum. The ATI 600 works with it, while the Canopus ADVC does not. For DVD-Video MPEG, you'd have to use the ATI Catalyst Media Center (ATI CMC) software. For non-DVD broadcast spec MPEG, you can use VirtualDub with the free Matrox codecs. Going back to your TBC links on eBay, FOR-A and Leitch (former DPS TBCs) are really the only broadcast brands I'd ever consider. I had the DPS-220, and it wasn't anything special in terms of regular TBC functionality (ignoring the dropout compensator). Most TBCs are also limited to BNC connections, which have to be turned into composite connectors. You can't use s-video with these devices, which is a quality-limiting factor for VHS work. You really do want s-video continously from VCR, through any secondary devices, right up to the capture card input. Composite is almost always noticeably lower quality video, both in detail and in chroma quality/noise. The other big turn-off of using these TBCs is the size. The broadcast TBCs are full rack-mount devices, the same width as a VCR, half height, but at least 1.5x deep. It doesn't fit anywhere conveniently, unless you want to dedicate a portion of your office/home to a big bulky rack. I truly despise the sharp metal edges, too. If you're in a gambling mood, there are some TBC-1000's cheap as-is untested for about $50 right now. See http://shop.ebay.com/resellelectroni....c0.m270.l1313. And don't worry about the "no power cord" thing -- the power specs are written on the TBC label on back, and you can get one at Radio Shack for about $25. Quote:
An older ATI All In Wonder card, for example, is an excellent card. But it needs PCI (for one model) or AGP (for most models). These are also limited to WinXP, 2000, 9x. No Vista, no 7. And are you determined to use your current computer, or would you consider an inexpensive dedicated capture box? Sometimes a dedicated box running Windows XP is the best solution for video. The video and audio communities have no love for Windows Vista and Windows 7, as it did almost nothing for us. Hope that helps. :) |
Well, I'll start answering.
For post-production, I plan on giving all videos some form of restoration/filtering treatment, but I will tailor that filtering to each video, as each video is different. As for the dropping frames guide (needing a better computer) and not capturing in Premiere, I do understand that it's a resource hog, but I also have a much beefier computer than most people. Core i7 930 6 gigs of RAM at 1600 mhz GTX 465 (Video card) Plenty of harddrive space. However, I will probably use VirtualDub anyway or the CMC if I chose the ATI usb stick. Also, I have seen those $50 untested TBC-1000s, but I just don't want to gamble on getting one that doesn't work. For Motherboard, I said before in a post that I have no AGP slots, but do have PCI and PCI-e slots. The Hauppauge cards work with PCI slots and there are some ATI AIW cards for the PCI slots, but I don't think I'll get a AIW card. More than likely I'll get either the PVR-250 or the ATI usb stick. Windows 7 Ultimate also includes the ability to have Windows XP run in what they call "Virtual XP Mode" which essentially means it just installs the entire XP OS and you can use that for legacy things if you so wish. Oh, I also have Firewire ports, but that doesn't mean much for the capture card or usb stick. As for the TBC's, I'll just have to wait on that. I don't think you mentioned it, but can VirtualDub be used with the Hauppauge card or will I be forced to use whatever software Hauppauge supplies? And thank you for answering my post, good information in there! |
I would also suggest it's not necessarily the power of the computer as much as Premiere just isn't coded that well for capturing. Think of it as an editing program that also has the ability to capture video -- a "value added" feature. But, as with anything else, such bonus features don't always work that well. All the R&D time went into the primary function of the program, and not the additional features. So even with a supercomputer powering the software, you may still run into sync/drops issues that are purely the fault of the software. Watch for that.
I need to try Windows XP mode sometime. I've just not used it, because I have so many XP machines. Plus that Windows 7 machine is for a specific task -- encoding H.264. For the ability to capture to both AVI and MPEG-2, I'd opt for the ATI 600 stick from Amazon, currently less than $50 shipped. Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00138EOH8 For MPEG-2 only, the Hauppauge would serve you well. One of the new guides in October .... strike that. THREE new guides in October will be helpful to you, in some way. One is for legacy PVR Hauppauge WinTV cards, and the other two are for ATI 600 MPEG capturing and AVI capturing via VirtualDub. That's the plan, anyway. I'd say the TBC-1000 is worth it. If I had funds, I'd buy several myself, test them, add a power cord, and easily be able to sell it for double my investment time. ($200 apiece, probably!) But I have to pass on that for now, other things need doing, higher priority than flipping gear. There's a chance I'd buy duds, but it's really hard to kill a TBC from DataVideo. It's a plain metal box with no controls, and the TBC-1000 could be tossed by a tornado and likely still survive. Something to consider. If you want to restore video, I'd really look at the ATI 600, between the choices mentioned so far. Premiere CS3 and CS4 are proving themselves to be quite decent at restoration filter, color-wise. I may drop VirtualDub Colormill moving forward, and focus more on using CS4. I just did a project purely in Premiere, and preferred it over the somewhat-unstable Colormill GUI. In years past, this really was a weak area for Premiere. |
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Also admin, can you check your pm box?
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PM checked, replied.
I still find uses for TMPGEnc. The various filters for noise and sharpness, etc -- no other editor seems to have an identical filter. For example, sure, there are many NR filters out there, but sometimes the TMPGEnc version just functions differently enough to be better than the others. It's almost hard to believe I've been using it for almost 10 years now. It's easily the oldest still-in-use tool in my arsenal. |
Most of my filtering though is used through Avisynth, as it is amazingly powerful and there are many customizable tools/plugins/filters for it. If you haven't heard of it or used it, I'd suggest taking a peek at it over at the doom9 forums. I'm a particular fan of the MVDegrain function, among others.
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Who hasn't heard of Avisynth and filters video!? :eek:
You should share some of your Avisynth filter work sometime. Show some examples of what you're getting accomplished, including both the scripts and the before/after samples (maybe even attach the exact version plugins you're using). It's a great little app. Maybe not as powerful as the uber-fans would have you believe, but still quite decent at a number of tasks. It's unsurpassed at several operations, such as deinterlacing. My biggest issue with Avisynth is the scripting. Surely some of the most common filters could have been bundled into a good GUI that plugins into an encoder? Then again, that's what you get for free, I guess. It reminds me of logging into SSH root on the server, typing DOS commands, or writing PHP and CSS. Not fun at all. Video is so visual that I feel the life getting sucked out of me by having to interact with it in such a non-visual way. I wish more people would share their exact plugin files, as well as their scripting. I need to get better about that, too. VirtualDub, TMPGEnc and Premiere do meet most of my needs, however. :) |
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That kind of info would be good to have here. I need to share some of mine, too. I rely on hardware a lot, and can wipe out most remaining problem in VirtualDub or Premiere, but it's good to go over some Avisynth for those common errors that aren't as easily fixed by hardware, Vdub or an NLE. Or maybe even some errors that could be fixed by those methods, but I know not everybody can have $KKK worth of hardware and software in their home or office. That makes Avisynth a nice alternative. All it needs are docs, samples and examples that regular people can relate to. Please do share! :cool: |
Bleh, I've never had this kind of trouble with Amazon before. (On buying the ATI 600) The first seller I bought from still hasn't shipped the damn thing, and I placed that order on September 27. I've e-mailed him twice and just decided to file a claim and return the item if he ever does ship it. The next time I bought it from an actual company, and 4 days after I "bought" it, they send me an e-mail telling me due to an Inventory Error, the item is actually not in stock. So I got a refund. So after waiting about 2 weeks with all this mess, I was a little fed up and just decided to buy the ATI 750 right from Amazon themselves, and put it on 2 day air shipping. It'll arrive tomorrow, thankfully. The 750 was only $54 shipping included, so not much of a price jump. All the other ATI 600's on Amazon are either $85 or $200, so I didn't feel that those prices were actually fair. Anywho, after I get it tomorrow, I'll make the follow up posts with some Avisynth scripts and some results of some of my captures.
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It gets bad around this time of year, October-January, ordering anything online -- referring to "oops, it's out of stock, sorry" type issues.
I'm not entirely clear on the functionality/software of the ATI 750. ATI made some changes after the 600. Keep in touch, once it arrives! |
This is a little depressing :( It just came in and I got everything set up pretty quickly. But, using the software that came with it, (Arcsoft Total Media 3.5), the S-Video source is TERRIBLE. I couldn't believe how bad the video was. When I hook it up to my regular Home Theater, the quality is perfect, but when viewing and even capturing with their included software, it looks like utter junk. I'm going to try now with VirtualDub and see if I can't get better results. If not, I think I'll have to return this as well :( I\'m hoping that it\'s just the software and not the actual S-Video connection that\'s bad on the ATI 750.
EDIT: Damn, it\'s no better in VDub either. EDIT EDIT: Decided to return it. Not going to deal with this. I\'m just going to buy an actual capture card. Probably going to be a Hauppauge PVR 150. |
Actually, it might be the PVR-350, not the 150. If you have any other suggestions for PCI or PCIe capture cards, I\'d love to hear those as well.
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