Light Gray Border with SignVideo PA-100/Macrovision
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Copy-protected VHS tapes capture with a 20-pixel high gray bar along the bottom border of images. It's easiest to see in large dark areas (two samples below). The gray bar gradually dissipates during play until 45 minutes or so, when they are too dim to see. Noise reduction has no effect. In smaller, brighter scenes the effect is more difficult to see but it's still there. In the caps below I've brightened the darks so the affected area is easier to see on PC monitors; it's more obvious on TV.
Attachment 2118 Attachment 2119 I know there are other noise problems in the images, but cleanup is a waste of time -- the gray area is persistent (the right-hand gray border in the "Home Video" image isn't on the rest of the video). This occurs on all copy-protected VHS, regardless of player, capture card, or OS. It doesn't happen on home-made tapes, cable recordings, or non-protected tapes. Is there some internal adjustment in the PA-100 to prevent this? I'm forced to adjust levels, color, etc., with VirtualDub's software capture filters during capture, but it's not as clean or effective as hardware adjustment with a proc amp. |
I should add:
My usual circuit for VHS capture is: VCR > DVD recorder (TBC pass-thru) > PA-100 > AVT-8710 TBC > ATI 9600XT > VirtualDub > YUY2 AVI The images posted were made with this circuit: VCR > PA-100 > ATI 9600XT > VirtualDub > YUY2 AVI I also use an ATI AIW 7500 on an identical PC. Same problem. It doesn't matter where I place the components in the capture setup: remove the PA-100 and the gray bar is gone. OS is WinXP Pro. |
Interesting. I'll have to test out my PA-100 with a Macrovision tape and see if I get the same results.
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For some reason it doesn't happen on all protected tapes, but on most of them. I realize there's more than one form of copy protection, so this might explain the variation.
It doesn't occur with my old BVP-4 proc amp, but the BVP-4 has another defect so I haven't used it for several years. Output from the PA-100 looks cleaner anyway. |
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Yeah I had an issue with my BVP-4 as well and sold it several years ago -- hopefully you don't have mine haha :) I would give the video a strange sort of smeared shadow look: http://forum.videohelp.com/images/gu...82084/bvp2.jpg I emailed someone about it that worked for them and he gave me a big long explanation of why that happens on some units, I should see if I can dig it up. |
There's an internal rheostat you can adjust in the BVP-4. Works sometimes, but often not. Adjusts a gray, noisy border on the left, but often just makes the left border thinner and creates a mirror image border on the right(!). You end up with two borders and all you can do is move them side to side. Ridiculous.
The PA-100 has two jumper clips inside. I don't know what they're for, so I refuse to touch 'em. Have too much $$$ tied up in this thing, and it's great when it works. I don't know why I've seen no other posts anywhere about such a problem -- though I have to say, sometimes you just don't see that bottom border, it's a little vague. On a TV or PC monitor with good detail in dark areas, you can see it. |
Now -- I assume what you have shown here is the full frame and with nothing cropped at the bottom?
The reason I ask is because -- are you sure it's not simply the part of the screen in the overscan that the PA-100 (nor PA-200) does not fully cover? As I recall, much like the BVP-4, which doesn't always cover the right side of the frame (as I remember), this device doesn't cover the entire frame length of the frame vertically. Or is this gray line ABOVE that portion in the overscan? If that's the case, I certainly notice it too, especially on tapes with black frames where I have changed the black level significantly and you get more contrast between the treated and untreated part of the picture. At least that is what I've always assumed -- that it's the untreated part of the picture on the last few lines and not simply some gray bar. I have tons of examples. Is it present if you just do pass-through? Of course, since it's all in the overscan, I don't worry about it, but I do all my watching on TV or in VLC on a computer and just mask the frame in the player to hide it on playback. |
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You shouldn't have 10% overscan around all 4 sides of anything you watch on TV or in media players. If you do, something's wrong somewhere. My VHS captures are 640x480 and rendered full-image to 720x480 MPEG, with only 2 to 4 pixels cropped and filled with black border to cover the 4 pixels of sync noise. Some of the tapes play with an 8-pixel black border on the left, but there's no image data missing or covered with gray bars. |
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Here are the same two scenes posted earlier, from a different capture using the same setup as before but with VirtualDub's capture filters instead of the proc amp's -- but without the PA-100. There are 8 pixels of black at the right (because the original film's aspect ratio is 1.3777:1, not 1:333), and 4 pixels of sync noise at the bottom. I expanded low-end brightness to be similar to the earlier pics. No de-noising yet or any other processing.
No gray bar anywhere. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1323142273 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1323142273 |
What I meant to say was that it was my understanding that the PA-100, like the BVP-4, does not apply it's correction over the entire frame on any tape, leaving a small area on the bottom of the frame that is not treated by the device, resulting in the discoloration that is visible. I definitely see what you mean though on the comparison. I'll have to run some captures on mine and see how it performs -- I actually don't have a PA-100, but the Studio 1 PA-200, although I assume it's all the same electronics.
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I know what you're saying, but consider this: Would you pay $95 for a Pinnacle USB copy adapter with horrible proc amp controls that cover the entire image, or $205 for an AVT-8710 TBC with somewhat decent basic proc amp controls that cover the entire image, or would you rather pay $449 to $649 for a SignVideo studio-grade proc amp that discolors the bottom 20 pixels of all your movies? IMHO, I think it's some (most?) copy-protected tapes that cause this problem (they also have screwed-up color and odd noise patterns for the first 30 minutes of tape).
Below, three photos with no discernible discoloration at the bottom, except the usual dark side borders added by cable stations and VHS makers to fit 35mmm movie frames into a 4:3 image: A: A copy-protected tape, without the PA-100, fed thru my BVP-4 (the last time the BVP-4 worked, 5 years ago!). The BVP threw a 16-pixel black border onto the right-hand side and cut 8 pixels off the left side of the image. The next day, the BVP-4 blew a fuse and so did I, ending my association with the BVP-4. But there are no gray bars in the image, and the tape does have Macrovision that required the AVT-8710 in circuit. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1323154181 B: Two frames from a non-protected VHS tape, both captured with the PA-100 in circuit. Note black side borders from the retail VHS so that the entire 35mm movie frame fits into a 4:3 box. If there is Macrovision on this tape, it must have faded; I recorded the tape with only the line-level pass-thru (which by itself won't defeat Macrovision if it's there). I used the PA-100 for both pics, but there's no discoloration that I can see. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1323154181 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1323154181 |
The thing to really remember is that video standards are just that -- standards. Companies came together to form groups, who then decided on how video would work. In several cases, there were competing standards, but standards all the same.
Then came "copy protection". Or as those of us in the video editing and conversion fields call it: errors and noise. Garbage is artificially added to the videos, which often causes it to fail 100% compliance with the agreed-upon standards. Yet it tends to play "good enough" in "most" equipment. "Most" is the important keyword. There are certain models of DVD players that can't play some DVDs, and the same was true of videotapes. Signal processors are very strict about input and output, and copy protection has often mangled the signal far too much to be corrected again. And that's when you see errors like this. What's truly aggravating is when artificial errors mimic natural errors, and then the overzealous copyright consortiums force device manufacturers to "obey" the anti-copy signals. So what you end up with is a VCR, DVD recorder or capture card that won't play or record your slightly messed-up copy of junior eating ice cream or grandma telling a story. I've seen far too many of these in the past decade or so. Very often, it varies from tape to tape. I can play the same movie, and get two different results. Sometimes simply changing the VCR changes how the signal is output (and thus input into the filter device that was having problems). I see this quite a bit with TBCs, proc amps and detailers. There's just no way to avoid it. While you could blame the device, I'd blame the tape. It has the errors. |
Sounds reasonable to me, lordsmurf. I feared for my PA-100, but I think its designers probably know better. Guess I'm stuck with using VirtualDub capture filters (Contrast, Bright, etc.,) or my AVT-8710 buttons. Kinda clunky and start-stop/trial-and-error that way, but better than krud all over the image. At least I feel my pricey proc amp ain't busted (whew!). That PA-100 luminance meter sure made things easier, though.
Thanks lordsmurf and others for giving this a look. |
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If I were you, I'd use the proc amp. Then open the video in VirtualDub, crop out all of the noise (2 pixels at a time -- NEVER just 1 pixel on interlaced recordings!), and then fill out the frame to 720x480, letting the "good" signal center itself. Feel free to crop some off the top, too, if you want to retain the "safe area" balance a bit. It all looks to be in the overscan, so I would not go to too much effort to "fix" what probably doesn't need much fixing.
Resize filter in VirtualDub: Attachment 2127 Then resize on this filter. __________ Your BVP-4 experience is pretty accurate. :) The BVP-4 is not the easiest device to get along with, but it's powerful enough that you can excuse it. Sort of like dating a Playboy model with a bit of an attitude, if I had to make a colloquial analogy. You learn to cope with small errors for the overall advantages it gives. Or at least most people will. I've felt your frustration move than once, that's for sure. |
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Frankly, I've never worried about overscan because, apparently, broadcasters and VHS and DVD makers don't seem concerned either, except on menus. As you know, most digital TV's today have a default "overscan" but they don't chop off any image, they zoom in on it a bit. Since most consumer TV's do a sloppy job of even minor resizing, I disable that hide-the-pixels feature (and won't buy a TV that doesn't let me do it) and use full-justify display. I don't see any cropping of classic movies on retail video or broadcast, though I've seen some exceptions that are annoyingly easy to spot. I'll just have to live with those few problem tapes that won't let me use the PA-100 (or the BVP-4, for other problems). I'd rather have the full image -- minus the small bit of sync pulse noise in the border, which doesn't have any image data to begin with. If I was just chopping off "noise", I'd do it; but that's part of the movie down there. |
That can be fixed with a script, but there's a few ppl who've asked for my help and I haven't done their scripts for a week now... so if I can ever get to finish that, I can look at yours sometime. The simplest thing is to record with/wo this device and use one copy to line up the other, if that makes sense.
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Thanks, jmac698, I know what you mean. I still have the tape, so I made 2 new captures last week. A mild contrast and brightness adjustment with the AVT-8710 (just enough to prevent crushed blacks and blown highlights) was mostly what was needed. It's just a pain without the PA-100's luma meter to jockey back-and-forth between views of histograms in VirtualDub before the setup is right for capture.
All I needed was the first half of the movie. By the second half, Macrovision side effects fade away on the old capture. For many problem scenes the 2 new captures look better anyway. So I'll be patching-in scenes from all 3 copies. That's the way I should have done it in the first place. Only problem with that is that a few scenes have audio sync differences of 2 or 3 frames at scene changes, but I know how to fix that. Can you believe I've worked on this movie on and off since 2007! I started a thread about the "LILI" tape's color and noise problems in the videohelp forum. |
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Why the other two of my old Panasonic VCR's can play the entire image, I don't know (PV-4662, PV-8662, both circa mid-1990's). The images in this post were from the rebuilt 8662. Wish I still had my old 1994 JVC, model number forgotten now, but parts for it disappeared years ago. No TBC, but transfers made from its years-old tapes look pretty nice -- better, IMHO, than the TBC-equipped models from the later 90's. That JVC must have weighed 30 pounds! |
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Look at my menu bleed guide: Attachment 2133
The important area to notice for this conversation is the white, blue and black. (Ignore the green.) White is about 25 pixels in (25px), while the bleed range is from 15px to 25px. So most televisions are going to cut off all of this noise, save for the most non-aggressive overscans. That's why it's been suggested to crop/mask and then re-center the remaining "good" image. Even if the TV does have the overscan turned off, I'd rather mask the noise, and watch what's left -- even if it is being postage-stamped by small fraction. Black borders on all sides is far less obnoxious to watch than a video signal that has ants in the pants. Restoring video is sometimes about hiding problems, not trying to fix everything. Keep that in mind. (Otherwise you'll just drives yourself crazy!) The PSD is in the attached RAR, and each color is on a separate layer. This is a menu template. :cool: |
Mm, no. I don't crop 10% of classic Oscar-callibre camera work, nor do I know anyone who does except hobbyists using inadequate gear and VCR's with playback problems. 10% is not a "small fraction" of the image. 4 pixels at the bottom can go black OK because, you see, there's no image information down there. It's amazing how that 20-pixel border of "head switching noise" disappears when I remove the proc amp.
Thanks for the work on the overscan area. I've been using those safe-area templates for SD and HD from Photoshop since 1997. But I only use them for titles and menus for friends of mine who still have CRT's. Do you really make titles, menu images, etc., using a 720x480 frame? That's unusual, as most titlists would realize that their fonts and drawings will distort on playback in proportion to the display aspect ratio. Photoshop has recommendations for frame sizes (or they used to, anyway) that will fit within the safe area and maintain the correct aspect ratio on display. I realize that many TVs crop the display and won't you set up for the full image. I don't watch those TVs. I find that doing so is visually annoying. I think you might have bypassed looking at the sample captures made without the problematic proc amp on some protected tapes. Why maim a good image? All I had to do was find another way to capture without the Macrovision side effects. The proc amp is less fiddly, but not if I have to cut up the film directors' work. |
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