My ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe very brief review

[metaleonid]

My computer is very old and doesn't have PCI-e slots. I borrowed a DELL PC from a friend of mine who is Chinese and has Chinese version of XP. I was feeling almost like a blind man.

Anyway, somehow intuitively managed to install drivers, VirtualDub 1.9, Huffyuv codec.

I am not going to be using this card for VHS captures. Only for LaserDiscs. So I wasn't testing VHS. If anyone is interested, I can try to test VHS captures in my spare time.

Here is the test result from Digital Video Essentials DVD via Composite in. All proc amp settings are default. Captured into Huffyuv AVI and then encoded with TMPGEnc. File 750pcieDVEmotionComposite.m2v will be available for 2 weeks from the following download location:

http://we.tl/8EGNiAas2G

Note that every time I go to the capture mode in VirtualDub, it defaults the card to PAL version. I don't know why. Maybe perhaps it detects Chinese OS?

--Leonid

[lordsmurf]

I cannot download anything.
How large is the file? I can provide FTP space for you. That way, it's never deleted (and thus makes sure your review is never deemed useless!)

PM me for credentials.

Thanks.

[msgohan]

Thanks. Seems to play correctly in VLC with Yadif 2x, incidentally.

Any ETA on the DMR-ES25? Will you be reviewing that?

[metaleonid]

I just got DMR-ES25. Already made captures from Philips DVD player's composite out to DMR-ES25 S-Video into ATI USB 600. Do you want me to encode into m2v?

[msgohan]

Yeah, please. Also curious to hear what you think of the HDMI output.

[lordsmurf]

What I care about most is the passthrough on tearing errors.
How does it react? (Assuming you have tapes with known tearing issues.)

[metaleonid]

I don't have HDMI yet. I will test when I do. I will try the tearing tapes when I get time.

As far as comb filter, ATI 750 PCIe is superior to Pioneer DMR-ES25. I don't know terminology very well, but ES25 doesn't fully kill rainbows on stills. There are some left overs. During the new scene 750 PCIe immediately gets rid of dot crawls. For DEM-ES25 it takes about 5 frames. And lastly DMR-ES25 f*cks up cyan colors at the bottom center (1.0 and 1.5). There're just no cyan colors, period. I will upload Snell & Wilcox from DMR-ES25?

As far as tearing (I assume you mean this bending at the top)... Is it possible to fix with AVISynth. The damage is done and I don't have originals anymore.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

I don't have HDMI yet.

TV? Monitor?

Quote:

And lastly DMR-ES25 f*cks up cyan colors at the bottom center. Do you want me to upload Snell & Wilcox from DMR-ES25?

Are you sure that isn't the effect of the ATI 600 USB? The chroma resolution is lower on its S-Video input than its composite input.

Yes please.

[metaleonid]

I don't have HDMI yet. I am trying to get out of old school.

I will check ATI 600 USB. I did DVE into ATI 600 USB via S-Video directly. So if it has bad chroma resolution, I shouldn't be using it for LaserDisc captures from S-Video out?

[msgohan]

I don't know whether LD has enough horizontal chroma res for it to matter, but I prefer other capture devices for nice colors according to DVD test patterns.

[metaleonid]

It is indeed ATI 600 USB. Then I don't get it why it is considered a good card if it is low on chroma resolution?

ATI USB 600 is the worst out of all cards that I have (ATI 550, ATI 650 USB, ATI 750 USB/PCIe, LifeView FlyVideo 3000FM, Compro VideoMate TV Ultra, Canopus ADVC-300) on chroma. Even Compro VideoMate TV Ultra outperforming it. ATI 750 HD USB/PCIe are the best in terms of chroma.

I was planning on doing simultaneous video capture from my LD player: via S-Video and via Composite. I planned on using ATI 600 USB, but now I have doubts. Maybe should go with ATI 750 HD USB.

Here is the test pattern using Philips DVP 642 DVD Player's Composite out to DMR-ES25 S-Video out to ATI USB 600.

http://we.tl/x4mqxoMMbL

I also connected analog RCA audio to input of DMR-ES25. From DMR-ES25 I connected optical toss link to my receiver. The sound was there. So there's a hope that HDMI will go through as well.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

It is indeed ATI 600 USB. Then I don't get it why it is considered a good card if it is low on chroma resolution?

Most of us are transferring consumer videotape formats with FAR lower chroma bandwidth than what the ATI 600 captures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

As far as comb filter, ATI 750 PCIe is superior to Pioneer DMR-ES25. I don't know terminology very well, but ES25 doesn't fully kill rainbows on stills. There are some left overs. During the new scene 750 PCIe immediately gets rid of dot crawls. For DEM-ES25 it takes about 5 frames.

I assume you mean with LD when you say it doesn't quite kill rainbows on stills?

If you look closely at the "cut" from the 1.78:1 letterbox still to the first Snell & Wilcox pattern in your two M2Vs, they actually both require 4 frames before they are completely clean of rainbowing and dot crawl (frame 3 is far cleaner on the 750 PCIe). If you compare frame 2 to frame 3, you can see how they've tricked you into thinking they've eliminated the dot crawl immediately: the chroma is slightly filtered for the first two frames (not nearly as much as 600 USB is all the time) before it snaps into full resolution. There is a very small amount of dot crawl for the first 2 frames, visible at the edges of the color patches and not the centers. Seems to be a smart strategy since it's very unlikely your vision would ever be sensitive enough to pick up on this in realtime even with a source carrying full color resolution.

[metaleonid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

I assume you mean with LD when you say it doesn't quite kill rainbows on stills?

No. This test was DVD only. I haven't done LD testing yet.

So what I mean is this.

1. ES25 doesn't fully kill rainbows on stills. Period. I'm not talking about 5 frames it takes to adjust. I am talking about after the adjustment is made. Subtle rainbows are still there for ES25 for still picture while on 750 PCIe they are completely gone. By the way, I believe Canopus ADVC-300's filter works exactly the same way as ES25 one.
2. 750 PCIe (independent of paragraph above) gets rid of dot crawl immediately. I will take a closer look at dot crawl for the 1st couple of frames for 750 PCIe but so far I haven't noticed one.

By the way, one note. The test pattern is not a real footage. What works well in test pattern sometimes can be bad for the real footage. Compro VideoMate TV Ultra has 3 modes for comb filter. 2 of them are:
3D + 2D and the other one is 3D only. 3D only performs incredibly well in Snell & Wilcox test pattern. It gets rid of rainbows and dot crawls after the 1st frame. 2D + 3D works more like 750 PCIe - takes a few frames to get rid of rainbows. However, I once captured a real footage using Compro VideoMate with 3D only filter on. I noticed rainbows during the scene movement. It turned out that the rainbows got produced artificially by 3D only filter. Setting it to 3D + 2D got rid of unwanted rainbows.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

Subtle rainbows are still there for ES25 for still picture

Okay, but where? A scope view confirms that chroma is virtually flat on the B&W portions of the first pattern's still frames.

Quote:

However, I once captured a real footage using Compro VideoMate with 3D only filter on. I noticed rainbows during the scene movement. It turned out that the rainbows got produced artificially by 3D only filter.

Strange. I would expect to see what's been called "checkerboarding" rather than extra rainbowing.

[metaleonid]

Still rainbows (or coloring) was on the next pattern where the circle was still. They were in black and white squares. The coloring was subtle. Some frames would not have it and then subtle coloring would appear.

What is checkerboarding? I've seen this term, but don't know what it really means. Anyway, the artifact I am describing with Compro VideoMate was:

There was commercial advertizement with moving screen (picture in picture). Then at the bottom all of a sudden there were diagonal (almost vertical) thick color bars as long as the picture was moving. Is what checkerboarding means?

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

Still rainbows (or coloring) was on the next pattern where the circle was still.

Okay. You said still frames, so we're not talking about the same thing. The second pattern is never still since the cube in the corner spins the whole time. Don't know whether it's by design, but that thing seems to cause pulsating in other parts of the image with every 3D comb filter. The 750 PCIe is affected too, just far less.

Quote:

What is checkerboarding? I've seen this term, but don't know what it really means.

Have you seen this site? He calls them grid artifacts. Chroma that looks broken up.

Quote:

There was commercial advertizement with moving screen (picture in picture). Then at the bottom all of a sudden there were diagonal (almost vertical) thick color bars as long as the picture was moving. Is what checkerboarding means?

I can't picture what you mean, so I'm not sure.

[metaleonid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

Okay. You said still frames, so we're not talking about the same thing. The second pattern is never still since the cube in the corner spins the whole time. Don't know whether it's by design, but that thing seems to cause pulsating in other parts of the image with every 3D comb filter. The 750 PCIe is affected too, just far less.

I didn't notice that 750 PCIe was affected. In fact even Compro VideoMate TV Ultra does better job than DMS-ES25.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

He calls them grid artifacts. Chroma that looks broken up.

Are you referring to this picture?

http://notonbluray.com/blog/wp-conte...comb-error.png

So is it what is called check boarding? If so, than this is not the artifact that I have seen. I'll see if I can find the DVD and record this artifact.

[msgohan]

Yes, those images.

[metaleonid]

This card is not good for captures from LaserDisc. I tested with Video Essentials LaserDisc. It triggered AGC issue.
Also its the 3d comb filter does great job when the source material is DVD. But doesn't nearly do as good job when the source material are LaserDiscs. In fact yesterday I tested Panasonic DMR-ES25, ATI 550 Theater PCI, ATI 750 HD PCIe, Compro VideoMate TV Ultra with NEC D64083 3d comb filter chip. I used Video Essentials LaserDisc. Compro VideoMate TV Ultra with NEC D64083 comb filter outperformed all other devices. But unfortunately the captured image is very blurry as if the resolution is half horizontal size. Because of that I will not be able to use it. I guess I will have to choose DMR-ES25 or yet find another capture card.

[msgohan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason the NEC D64083 comb filter shows less artifacts is because the resolution is filtered.