AVT-8710 vs TBC-1000 - Deciding between Time Based Correctors

[Lightsword]

Hi Everyone,

I'm working on my hardware side for my capture system. I'm looking for a good TBC to add to my system. I've read lots about the systems and seen that the two most commonly recommended units are the AVToolbox AVT-8710 and the DataVideo TBC-1000. I'm trying to locate either one of these at a good price or an equally high quality alternative.

So far I've spotted both of these on Ebay and I wanted to get everyone's oppinion and advice if you've had any experience with either one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291159707295...84.m1423.l2649 and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261498590326...84.m1423.l2649

I searched the forums but didn't really see many references the DataVideo TBC 4000. If I were picking, it looks like the better unit but I'm really not sure. I'm custom building a desk that will have the capability to rackmount equipment so that's not a drawback for me. If I went with something smaller, I'd either set it on my desk or just put a rack shelf in place to hold it so it's not a big problem either way.

I'm up for spending a little more if a new device is a better bet but I've also had good success just buying used components. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Lightsword

[sanlyn]

This might seem like a strange question, but what do you want this TBC to do? (a) Undo Macrovision for capturing retail analog tapes? (b) Avoid serious, chronic audio synch problems? (c) Provide better line synch to avoid bent borders, wiggling lines, warped edges, and/or jitter?

The two tbc's you mention are OK for (a) and (b). They will have no effect on (c).

Get them from a reputable dealer. The AVT-8710 has QC issues unless you get the genuine article, not one of the many AVT ripoffs/copies/defects or something that's been sitting in a cigar box for 5 years waiting for a sucker. The AVT has a clunky but useable and basic proc amp control section. The TBC-1000 costs a bit more (but no longer made) and causes visible softening of the image. Don't use a tbc if you don't need it. Best source for a new AVT is a high-integrity dealer such as B&H Photo (bhphotovideo.com) or J&R (jr.com), both in NY. Both models that you mention will have some untoward effect on the image, more or less (the AVT is a little sharper. Neither is perfect.).

VHS/tape capture always involves one and usually more of the problems described in (c). A full-frame tbc won't help there. You'll need a line-level tbc, or an upscale tape player with built-in line tbc that still works, or one of the popular older Panasonic or Toshiba DVD recorders circa 2004-2005 popularly used as a line-tbc pass-thru device. If your tapes are in terrible shape or you're using a cheap VCR, you'll probably need both types of tbc. These devices described work at least passably well, and most advanced hobbyists are satisfied with their performance. But no one pretends that they will outperform shop-grade gear. For shop-grade gear you'll need some training, some associated equipment, and a lot more money.

That's the short answer. If you have other concerns, post more detail. There are many more threads about tbc types. Here's a thread from the past couple of days that might shed more light: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-es10-dvd.html .

[premiumcapture]

I've used both and have been happiest with the TBC-1000, haven't been too happy with the 8710.

[Lightsword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

This might seem like a strange question, but what do you want this TBC to do? (a) Undo Macrovision for capturing retail analog tapes? (b) Avoid serious, chronic audio synch problems? (c) Provide better line synch to avoid bent borders, wiggling lines, warped edges, and/or jitter?

The two tbc's you mention are OK for (a) and (b). They will have no effect on (c).

Get them from a reputable dealer. The AVT-8710 has QC issues unless you get the genuine article, not one of the many AVT ripoffs/copies/defects or something that's been sitting in a cigar box for 5 years waiting for a sucker. The AVT has a clunky but useable and basic proc amp control section. The TBC-1000 costs a bit more (but no longer made) and causes visible softening of the image. Don't use a tbc if you don't need it. Best source for a new AVT is a high-integrity dealer such as B&H Photo (bhphotovideo.com) or J&R (jr.com), both in NY. Both models that you mention will have some untoward effect on the image, more or less (the AVT is a little sharper. Neither is perfect.).

VHS/tape capture always involves one and usually more of the problems described in (c). A full-frame tbc won't help there. You'll need a line-level tbc, or an upscale tape player with built-in line tbc that still works, or one of the popular older Panasonic or Toshiba DVD recorders circa 2004-2005 popularly used as a line-tbc pass-thru device. If your tapes are in terrible shape or you're using a cheap VCR, you'll probably need both types of tbc. These devices described work at least passably well, and most advanced hobbyists are satisfied with their performance. But no one pretends that they will outperform shop-grade gear. For shop-grade gear you'll need some training, some associated equipment, and a lot more money.

That's the short answer. If you have other concerns, post more detail. There are many more threads about tbc types. Here's a thread from the past couple of days that might shed more light: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-es10-dvd.html .

Thank you both for your advice and suggestions. I guess I should've been smarter and posted my plans from the beginning. I'm wanting this TBC to help with a couple of different workflows that I'm putting together. First, I'm working on capturing 8MM and Hi8 digital video from a Sony DCRTRv-460 camcorder that apparently has a line level TBC and using it's S-Video output to go through a TBC if needed and into a All in Wonder Capture system. I'm trying to capture at the highest quality possible, while also not spending a fortune. I'm just hunting for that nice balance between time and expense. As a future application, I'd like to use it to assist in capturing VHS tapes from a quality S-VHS VCR that I'll be purchasing from in the future.

Both of your comments make me lean a bit more towards the DataVideo TBC 4000 that I saw. It looks like a good system so far. Any other thoughts and suggestions? I really do appreicate your time and advice.

Lightsword

[premiumcapture]

If you have a budget...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...nizer_and.html

Otherwise, the Datavideo is great!

[Lightsword]

Lol that's a little pricey but the datavideo should work well then

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightsword

First, I'm working on capturing 8MM and Hi8 digital video from a Sony DCRTRv-460 camcorder that apparently has a line level TBC and using it's S-Video output to go through a TBC if needed and into a All in Wonder Capture system. I'm trying to capture at the highest quality possible, while also not spending a fortune. I'm just hunting for that nice balance between time and expense. As a future application, I'd like to use it to assist in capturing VHS tapes from a quality S-VHS VCR that I'll be purchasing from in the future.

Both of your comments make me lean a bit more towards the DataVideo TBC 4000 that I saw. It looks like a good system so far. Any other thoughts and suggestions? I really do appreicate your time and advice.

Lightsword

Nothing "wrong" with a TBC 4000, if you need it for certain problem tapes. But hold on: this is not to discourage anyone but to help refine the process.

First, digital video source isn't "captured". It's literally copied, usually via Firewire device or with a digicam's software and input stuff, to DV-AVI. That wouldn't be a capture. It would be an exact copy. An All In Wonder card is not a great choice for that source. What you do with that DV copy depends on how much modification you do (stuff like color correction, denoising, etc., means yet more lossy re-encodes of a source that's lossy to begin with, but there are ways to avoid damage). Keep in mind that consumer DV was designed for PC or in-camera playback. If you want a final output as DVD, XVid, DivX, AVCHD, BluRay, etc., DV has to be re-encoded for those formats. For some formats (such as DVD), DV's audio has to be converted to DVD spec. If you wanna send it to UTube, better deinterlace it yourself using something like Avisynth or suffer the consequences once uTube gets their hands on it.

For analog tape the All In Wonders are optimal, particularly for analog-to-lossless capture. Most people would use VirtualDub capture for that and something like huffyuv or Lagarith for lossless compression during capture and post-processing. Many people capture analog to lossy DV-AVI and think they've accomplished something. In fact they do get a picture and audio, but experienced users with a good eye would be able to spot plenty of trouble using that method. Using a digital camera for its tbc won't get you a lossless capture. So you still need a line tbc of some kind for analog tape. In any case, DV is lossy and would require yet another round of lossy compression for the final product. Capture analog to lossless media with the AIW. From there, you can go anywhere you want without a lot of damaging re-encodes. Analog-to-lossless ultimately involves only one lossy encode, which would be the final step after you've done everything else.

Avoid lossy re-encoding. Subsequent re-encoding doesn't restore what was lost in the original.

[volksjager]

he is using the DCR- cam to convert analog Video8 and Hi8 - not Digital8
the DCR cams that have analog playback have line TBC's
the default setting should be TBC on.

so DCR-TRV cam -> TBC -> ATI AIW would be the way to go

[Lightsword]

Hi Sanlyn,

Sorry for confusing you. As Volksjager said, I'm only using this for analog 8mm tapes and using the built in line level TBC on the camcorder to output it over S-Video to capture. The Digital8 videos, I'm copying using firewire so I can get the best quality. I'm going to use the TBC only for the analog videos. I'm going to capture to AVI losslessly using Lagarith since it supports the 4:1:1 colorspace and I can preserve as much of the quality as possible.

I went ahead and purchased the DataVideo TBC and I'll post some notes as soon as I have it up and running.

BTW the hardware you sent Volksjager is working fabulously and its turning into a fantastic capture system

[sanlyn]

OK, looks like you have right idea. Good luck.

[Lightsword]

Thanks! I'm going to become a premium member as soon as funds are available! I'm deeply indebted to all the experience and knowledge that you and all the other members are sharing with me.

[lordsmurf]

Get the TBC-1000 (or a TBC-100). Less issues.
If you get the AVT-8710, make VERY suire it's the older green model with black trim. Not the newer all-black or blue units.

Both have quirks. No TBC is perfect.