Why are you deinterlacing?
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@metaleonid: Thanks for the feedback regarding ATI devices. I'm sure you will only provide advice based on your own experiences. My comment earlier was to be understood in a bit more general way I guess. That being said, while Bootcamp ran on your 2008 Mac with XP, the version of Bootcamp I would have to use on my newer Mac does not support Windows XP or Vista. While your advice is absolutely useful for users with older Macs, it doesn't work for me unless I would chose Windows 7/8.
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In short: adding the interlaced footage to iDVD produced interlaced lines on my TV. Adding deinterlaced footage to iDVD did not. |
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Sorry, but your sample shows many signs of improper processing. |
@sanlyn: Thanks for the in-depth feedback. :congrats:
As for the issue of "lines" on the TV, I think it was the fault of iDVD not properly encoding the video file... I will look into that once I test another set of edited footage. I didn't use that software in years. Quote:
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I've seen this bad interlacing in captures with a lot of inappropriate or poorly designed capture devices. Nothing new there, and it's obvious in your first sample capture, which is badly interlaced. Those devices make for a lot of unnecessary hard work. Attached is your first sample, reworked, color fixed up and some noise cleaned (Avisynth and VirtualDub), combing mostly fixed, decoded to progressive AVI with QTGMC, then encoded as interlaced-flagged PAL DVD-compatible m2v (no audio). The attached .m2t is the same thing, same methods, SD-BluRay compatible (RAR'd, since m2t isn't on the list of favored formats). I'd go for a better capture device. |
@sanlyn: Amazing! Thanks a lot for the in-depth feedback and conclusions.
With respect to deinterlacing, the two sample files have not been deinterlaced in terms of consciously choosing a dedicated deinterlace method or option/setting during encoding. I am not expert, so I can only guess that JES Video Cleaner's "noise reduction" function did some deinterlacing during the process (second sample file)? Or perhaps within the QuickTime framework of Mac OS codecs, the compression method I chose (YUV420) is - for whatever reason - preconfigured to deinterlace? The file I did in fact deinterlace was not uploaded and merely served as one of many samples for iDVD. As mentioned earlier, it's been more than ten years since I last dealt with capturing video from analog media... most intangible knowledge from that era is gone :rolleyes: And I have downloaded the sample files provided. Wow, looking much better! Thanks for taking the time to do that! :congrats: So you're saying a better capture device would produce less interlacing or at least better footage from the start? Any hint to a USB solution, if any? In the end, I guess your feedback has showcased the flaws of the USB capture device I am using. And that is not to say that I didn't trust the advice given in the first place, i.e. to use a Windows based system with a decent capture card. But as mentioned earlier, I am bound to the hardware at hand (short term) and I am eager to find out - at least to a certain extent - the currently available options and possibilities for Mac OS. |
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I can't speak for Macs. I haven't used a Mac for video since 1998, although I've seen a few and even repaired a couple. Regarding capture I can only echo what lordsmurf wrote in post #12 (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post35486).
I note you remarked earlier that the "old knowledge" of 10 years ago no longer exists. Yet it does. People use it every day. The hardware has changed somewhat, but principles remain the same. I have a new Windows PC, but I capture with some old XP's, one of which I bought used, the other I built myself in 2007. You can still buy OEM copies of XP Pro, or find an old PC. Many have done it and still do it. My capture cards are a little harder to find: an ATI 7500 AIW Radeon and an ATI 9600XT AIW. Obviously PAL 6 is a problem, but I see people doing this on a Mac occasionally. A Mac user might be able to help with that. Your sample had severe interlace problems and would not reinterlace properly for cleanup. There was also some chroma bleed, chroma levels, color balance and other glitches. The first two frames are distorted -- I don't know how that happened in cutting from the original for the sample. I did the cleanup in Avisynth and VirtualDub. You have neither of those tools, but others might want to know what I did with the finished clip: Code:
QTInput("E:\forum\ame-otoko\test.mov") These are Windows tools and plugins. I don't know how it could be done on a Mac . |
@sanlyn: Thanks again for the elaborate feedback! :congrats:
Sorry, I meant to say that I have lost some of the intangible knowledge, the lessons learned, Windows expertise, and so forth over the years. :wink2: Thank you for uploading another sample in progressive PAL with 25fps. That sample looks pretty close to what I would like to achieve from the old S-VHS-C tapes (and other NTSC VHS tapes in the long-term). Back then, I was using a proprietary Hauppauge software that came with the capture card, as well as VirtualDub. For further editing and enhancement, TMPEGEnc and some Ulead suite was my software of choice among various freeware tryouts. I understand most of the commands provided in your Avisynth script. Thanks for the additional explanations. Obviously, VirtualDub and Avisynth on the Mac would be bliss. Volksjager pointed me to some possible configurations. When I find the resources (mainly time... and PAL-60 hardware availability) I would like to learn about building a dedicated Windows PC for capturing. Eventually, my hope was to establish a hobbyist workflow (capture > DVD use) for Mac to share with other users, you know, for casual capturing of analog media. Well, we see how that worked out so far... :rolleyes: |
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Maybe you should look for something like this for Mac: http://www.amazon.com/AJA-KONA-Compo.../dp/B0012LO7S2 |
Thanks to theMaster1 for new info.
The 25p video does play (and so does the 25i), but some resolution is lost, and interlaced video plays with smoother motion. So it's a tradeoff -- pure progressive for one impression, old-time interlaced for another effect. Your capture device, however, doesn't appear to be giving you a clean capture. |
@themaster1: Thanks for the information on that Mac compatible capture card. I have never heard of that brand "AJA KONA" over here, but if I had a Mac Pro and the extra cash to spend on my hobbyist approach at video capture, I would give it a try. :congrats:
@sanlyn: Quote:
Adding to these issues, I have run a couple more tests today and found that even though I selected 25fps for PAL input, the captured footage (Apple Animation codec, 720×576) varied between 24,67 to 24,94fps - that according to the file info shown by QuickTime and VLC. At this point, I do not understand what contributes to the two above-mentioend flaws... perhaps the VideoGlide software or the USB capture hardware fail to capture fixed 25fps? And could it be that my Macbook Pro (Mid 2012), the USB port, or the USB capture stick are not "fast" enough to capture in 720x576? :unsure: I understand that other Windows based capture devices suggested produce better outcomes in terms of picture quality, but if that USB capture stick was really that bad, I'm surprised that none of the reviews I found explained similar problems (most negative reviews came from software/driver issues). |
you cant trust review online for most things and especially capture stuff.
most reviews are left by people with no clue whatsoever about video. they have no idea what to look how much better the quality could be. Aja Kona - be prepared to pay, these are expensive https://www.aja.com/en/family/kona |
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Nevertheless, apart from the quality of those reviews, I would have at least expected someone to complain about the two aforementioned issues (lines/fuzziness; no real 25fps). I remember my yesteryear Hauppauge card was suffering from similar flaws in any resolution 640x480 and above. But that was clearly due to a lack of RAM and CPU power back then. |
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So interlace combing and aliasing are caused by... what? Is it a hardware deficiency? How can it be avoided? Or do you deal with it only by applying suitable Avisynth scripts/filters? And if so, how is that content then not deinterlaced (by mistake)? |
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[EDIT] Browsed the artcile, which is like a great many similar mass-consumer posts, This whole deinterlacing craze is born largely of ignorance. Users are confused about PC playback and a-v system/TV playback. The mass-consumer hacks have capitalized on the trend, making it appear that something is always gained by deinterlacing. Not so. Here's the bad news: 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 commercial BluRay, unless transferred from motion picture film, are interlaced per official industry-wide BluRay and AVCHD standards. If the source material is at 29.97 or 25fps and is progressive, by spec it must be encoded as interlaced. The only valid HD BluRay for non-interlaced material is 23.976 or 24fps original source (movie film). Commercial DVD's 720x480 NTSC/720x576 PAL and other SD-DVD or SD-BluRay videos are interlaced or telecined. SD and HDTV broadcasts are usually interlaced and broadcast movies are broadcast as telecined. Video for internet display is almost always progressive. On-site browser players don't deinterlace. |
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I use fly2000tv since ages and i use the certified drivers from terratec but out of curiosity i'd be willing to try the philips ones if you have a link.
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Yeah, but you first need to download Philips native drivers for this device and point to them. This drivers can be obtained from the website I pointed you to. Then in this application you have to tell to use native mode and not WDM. This is done in hardware tab. And then in video tab you need to uncheck AGC. Use manual gain. I usually set it between 35 and 45 to avoid white smear.
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Rather than just refer to a site that may disappear --- why not grab the files, RAR them up, and attach to a post or new thread here?
Because this site isn't going anywhere. ;) |
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