Tape project, what to use? (VHS/VHS-C/MiniDV/Hi8/Digital8)
Hello!
I am planning out a rather big project. I have been researching Analogue to digital conversion. Working on capturing old projects and tons of family videos, planning on working with VHS/VHS-c/Minidv/HI8/Digital8.. As you can tell I have a lot to capture haha. I have been looking into professional level decks lately, trying to get something like the SR-VS30 with firewire out. I have also been considering the ADVC-110. My main concern is quality of the video/audio. Is there any quality loss with using a ADVC-110 instead of firewire? Should I use a capture card instead? I am also trying to hunt down a really good digtal8 camcorder and a VHS deck for the best possible captures of my tapes. What about TBC? do i need to worry about this? Can anyone give me some general advice as to what kind of equipment and workflow I would need? Thanks. Looks like it could be a pretty cool forum. |
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Note some digital 8 camcorders are compatible with hi-8 and convert hi-8 to DV. Also note some digital8/mini DV camcorders can be used as DV capture device, you hook the VHS deck to the cam and it will convert to DV and send it over firewire just like the 110. I'm not going to get into the arguments about the quality of using the 110 except to say I have always loved mine. It's stupid easy and the quality is more than adequate..... Good deck and a TBC and you're set to go. |
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So I would plug in a VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ? And for VHS-C is the best option: VHS-c cassette adaptor->VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ? No arguments, just looking for advice. Thanks for the response! |
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It's good starting point because you need the camcorders anyway for the mini-dv and digital8. If you don't like the results you can always move onto something else. You're not getting something you don't need anyway. There is one gotcha here. If you are in the UK forget it because the manufacturers shipped them there with that feature disabled on most or all models. It was considered a recording device and had a tax applied. |
TheCoalman has the right idea. I would emphasize two very important points:
First, digital tape and analog tape are different media in many ways. Despite the fact that they might "look" alike played on a TV or PC, they don't really "work" the same way. Where DV tape is concerned, think of it as in some ways similar to modern digital cameras. DV tape and DV from a digital camera are copied 1:1 to another device, not re-recorded. There are DV transfer devices optimized for that purpose. Analog is a different story: good analog capture devices are designed for the nature of analog video. Analog playback is unsteady and noisy -- capturing analog sources to DV imbeds analog noise and defects as digital artifacts, not to mention adding lossy DV compression artifacts that also become a permanent part of the captured image. An important part of the analog playback and capture process that you mentioned is an outboard TBC. These are frame-level tbc's that correct frame-by-frame transmission timing and help ensure the precise frame rate for audio sync and avoidance of dropped and inserted (duplicate) frames which result in stutter and other anomalies. Another essential type of tbc required by analog tape is a line-level tbc. Just as frame-by-frame play doesn't emerge from a tape player as consistently as digital devices require, the individual scanlines within frames don't emerge "on time" either. This results in ragged edges, wiggles in vertical and angular lines, often ragged, notched, and even warped side borders, and a generally noisy, disruptive playback stream. Frame and line timing require different types of tbc. Timing errors can't be corrected after capture. Secondly: as TheCoalman rightly stated, quality is subjective. There's little that's subjective about wiggling lines, bad audio sync, or dropped frames -- these are easily observable. More subjective are perceptions of correct color rendition, "sharpness" (i.e, clarity), contrast and saturation levels, playback noise levels, and other imaging factors. Analog source varies in color balance, contrast, etc., from moment to moment. It is just as inconsistent as line and frame timing. A higher-quality player's chief attribute is that it inflicts less damage onto the signal than a cheap or poorly adjusted player. Higher quality VCRs have s-video outputs which eliminate the dot crawl and other luma-chroma noise problems that plague composite outputs (defects, by the way, that are exacerbated by capturing analog to lossy DV encoders). Ideally, analog source is captured to lossless YUY2 media using lossless compressors such as huffyuv or Lagarith to save file space (a huffyuv capture will be 1/3 the size of totally uncompressed lossless video). Lossless media is used for repair and restoration, as well as editing and applying all those fancy special effects that people like to play with in their editors. As far as initial quality goes, a lossless capture is about as close as analog will get to the 1:1 character of a DV copy -- even if the capture does contain the usual VHS tape problems, at least it won't have compression artifacts to contend with. Another advantage of lossless media is that it can be filtered, color corrected, chopped up into new working files that don't lose data thru added lossy compression stages. The only lossy encoding step is the final delivery format, which can be DVD, standard definition BluRay, mp4 or other formats and containers, progressive video for web display, or whatever you want. The original capture and working files remain intact. The working files can always be discarded later, and the lossless capture can be archived as-is or encoded to high-bitrate codecs to save space. The best VCRs have s-video outputs and built-in line level tbc's. No, those players aren't cheap. A workaround for the absence of a line tbc would be a very few legacy DVD recorders used as pass-thru devices whose circuitry can correct line timing errors and y/c crosstalk (aka dot crawl, cross-hatching patterns, and or some level of edge buzz and color bleed). To use a pass-thru device, connect the player's output to the pass-thru's input, then connect the pass-thru's output to a capture device. Rather than record the signal, the signal is simply "played thru" the device. Many users have old DVD recorders which, even if their optical drives no longer work, can still be used for pass-thru. Recording directly to the pass-thru unit isn't a great idea -- the results would have the same or worse compression problems as analog-to-DV and would be unsuitable as an editing format. |
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*Some of these camcorders have USB that will stream video however this video is typically a low quality MJPEG video. Quote:
While on the topic there is no difference between the 100 and the 110 I'm aware of except one. The 100 had a very simple hack that would allow you disable the macrovision protection, if I recall you had to hold the power button down for 6 seconds or something like that. |
Difference ADVC100 ADVC110 to.
The 100 was black and walked only with a 5 volt power supply. The ADVC110 is white and comes with 5 Volt power supply and with the 6-pin power supply when stranded bring 5 +6 power. Recognizes the 110 MV - .. then the red LED lights up [under the name "status"] .......... well 12 Sek.die silver button no longer lights up red until the Led. Now rewind tape and re-capture. But ..... as already written here in analog DV AVI is just not the cleanest. ------------------ German= Unterschied ADVC100 zum ADVC110. Der 100 war schwarz und ging nur mit einem 5 Volt Netzteil. Der ADVC110 ist weiss und geht mit 5 Volt Netzteil und mit dem 6-poligen Netzteil,wenn Litze 5 +6 Strom bringen. Erkennt der 110 -MV-..dann leuchtet die rote Led [unter der Bezeichnung "Status"]..........gut 12 Sek.die silberne Taste drücken bis die Led nicht mehr rot leuchtet. Nun Band zurückspulen und neu capturen. Aber wie schon hier geschrieben.....analoges direkt in DV AVI ist nicht das Sauberste. |
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Do I need to disable macrovision, is that an important feature? Thanks for the info. Yes my pc has a firwire port built in and I have a 4pin to 6pin cable. |
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I will look into capturing to huffyuv. Around vcrs, S-video is better then a firewire transfer in terms of quality? Correct me If I am wrong, but for most of my career in DV work, I though of firewire as the closest possible to the quality of the original tape. Are you saying, to capture video S-video when firewire is not an option (such as working with old VHS and VHS-c?) |
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The whole thing is quite simple. Canopus NX Map [PCI, or PCI-E] or if an old PC with Win XP is available this also with the Canopus DV Storm via Y / C [UYVY] With the NX card Edius must be installed ... version. 4.xx or 5.xx or 6.08 or 7.50 With the DV Storm can be capturt with VirtualDub. As a player for VHS-C + S-VHS-C receives a models of JVC BR-S 522/525/622 + to 822 ... but only in SP [Standard Play] VHS-C + S-VHS-C in SP and Longplay [LP] the Panasonic NV V8000 can be used without adapter. This setter there are also safe for NTSC. and another thing... S-VHS is recording format Y / C or S-Video is transmission type. |
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[EDIT] Oops. Goldwingfahrer has already posted a correction about SVHS and s-video. I guess he types faster than I do. :) |
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A full frame TBC will also remove it. |
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If you want to try converting your VHS to DV you can do that with some digital camcorders. Instead of buyin a 110 you can use the camcorder. You already have to buy camcorder if you expect to transfer mini DV or digital8 so you might as well get one you can hook a VHS deck too. If you find the qulaity is not that great with the VHS you can move onto getting something else. |
theCoalman will be happy to show you how to clean up what DV compression does with your noisy VHS. Mosquito noise, buzzing edges, and clipped brights will be the toughest part. Then there are those occasional and subtle color posterizating effects, especially in skin tones......
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You consider this poor advice? Quote:
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thecoalman, goldwing, lordsmurf and sanlyn, thank you all for weighing in, valuable info here. This is a great forum so far. So here is my 'final' plans for this project. HI8 = Digitize with Digital camera (probably TRV 840 if I can get one, it seems like on of the best Digital8 camcorders around). Have to buy the camcorder.. $$$ VHS/VHSc = Buy a really good S-VHS player (considering the VS10/VS10u for 1394, just incase). Either get a Canopus 300/110 (I will go for 300 if I can) and buy a good TBC box. Go S-video (is there anything better? I don't believe so..) to Canopus. Please feel free to critique or add anything you might think I can do better with this. |
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You can hook your VHS deck to the camcorder and use that instead of 110 to convert to DV. Since you need to purchase the camcorder anyway give it try and see if the results are acceptable. |
The ADVC300 has a Panasonic chip for line TBC but it doesn't actually correct errors, for some reason. According to some, it even introduces certain issues not present with the cheaper ADVCs. It does have the advantage of Proc Amp controls, whereas with the others and camcorder passthrough if blacks are crushed or brights are clipped you're stuck with it.
Still, I agree with the advice of buying the camcorders you need and trying them before deciding whether to throw money at a Canopus box. You might even decide you don't want to deal with the DV conversion artifacts. |
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