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  #1  
02-05-2016, 08:43 PM
Churchmouse Churchmouse is offline
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Forgive me for my na´ve questions; I am new to this forum, and not an expert video-ist by any means. But I have tried my best to read and understand the complexities of the Sony range through the many kind responses by your forum members here. However, I am still unsure what is going to work.

I have an defunct Sony CCD-TR705E on which I recorded around 30 tapes. Now I want to transfer them to my PC on Windows 10 to stored and edit them digitally. I bought a working DCR-TRV140E Sony Handycam from a friend thinking I would be able to use that. Uh-duh. Silly me. It's digital, isn't it. How embarrassing. However I notice that some of the Sony range were able to transfer analogue to digital, but appears this 'new' machine of mine can't.

But what I am unsure about: even though I can't see the video images on playback in the new machine, would they still transfer to the computer if I was to get an S-video port or Firewire for the computer?
I THINK I have understood that the machine needs an analog-to-digital passthrough which I guess the 140E doesn't have?

Anyone know of any other little tricks? I would take the tapes to a professional except it costs a bomb for that many tapes!

I look forward to any help or advice that anyone can supply.
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  #2  
02-05-2016, 11:37 PM
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Questions are never naive.

Some Digital8 cameras could playback Hi8 and/or Video8, and some could not. Honestly, Digital8/DV transfer was not ideal anyway. An actual Hi8 or Video8 camera is best for those non-digital analog formats.

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  #3  
02-06-2016, 01:15 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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The best way to convert your tapes is to get a Hi8 player with TBC function and high quality capture card or capture box to capture losslessly for editing, it however cost you an arm and leg, the second option is look for a Digital8 camcorder that is capable of playing 8mm and Hi8 and capture as DV format, cheaper but no TBC and DV quality is not good for editing. If you don't require editing it will be a different game.
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  #4  
02-06-2016, 03:25 AM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Quote:
The best way to convert your tapes is to get a Hi8 player with TBC function....
Sony EV S9000 has a TBC
Sony EVO 9700p and 9800P not [there helps me the DMR EH65 = HDMI-out]

a few D8 cameras have a TBC and a NR [noise reduction]
especially for Video-8 and Hi8.
Pictures I have shown here a few times.

wants to filter the movies with avisynth, then switches to the TBC one but NR = off
But never in DV-AVI output only analog.
DV-AVI from original analog is a disease and already heavily compressed see picture

here a picture of a Sony EV S9000


Attached Images
File Type: jpg DV-AVI-Kompression.jpg (93.8 KB, 60 downloads)
File Type: jpg Hi8_Settings_Zuspieler_2.jpg (68.4 KB, 52 downloads)
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  #5  
02-06-2016, 12:08 PM
Churchmouse Churchmouse is offline
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All helpful - and thanks for your kind approach. I will let you know how I get on!
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  #6  
02-07-2016, 11:55 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
DV-AVI from original analog is a disease and already heavily compressed
I agree, But what other alternatives are available for compression besides DV? DVD is worse, Newer compression schemes are better but they don't make devices designed for SD capture with image control, TBC/DNR/Comb filter functions, The only way for him to keep 30 tapes stored as uncompressed is to keep few TB's reserved on hard drive just to watch the files if he ever finds a media player to play them besides the computer, I believe it is not worth the effort for a low quality video from an analog tape. Just my two cents.
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  #7  
02-07-2016, 02:06 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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The output result depends mostly on the condition and the quality of your tapes, I uploaded some videos for you to look at comparing a live feed vs. S-VHS vs. VHS quality which is the equivalent to Hi8 and 8mm, Compare the live feed and see how much lost thru VHS and S-VHS tapes.
For the test I used a 1080p media player outputting S-Video PAL and Stereo audio connected to S-VHS deck via S-Video with TBC ON and from the deck to a DV capture device via S-Video connection and with TBC only ON no other image processing, capturing via firewire using WinDV application.
I used a regular VHS and a S-VHS TDK XP Pro tapes, I played the same 1080p video segment for the 3 tests, I captured the S-Video feed thru the VCR, then recorded it to S-VHS tape as S-VHS format and captured it, and lastly recorded it to VHS tape as VHS format and captured it, All the captures were done thru the S-Video output of the VCR not the media player. See the links for the 3 files.
From the files you can see that the bottle neck is the analogue tape whether it be VHS/8mm or S-VHS/Hi8 no matter how you capture it, it will be always low quality.

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/sp415...DV_Capture.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/dcd4m...DV_Capture.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/4y83g...DV_Capture.avi

Don't use Mediafire player it sucks, download to your computer.
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  #8  
02-07-2016, 03:53 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I just breathed a sigh of relief. Thank goodness my captures don't have all that noise and motion fuzz. I couldn't stand watching that much noise for more than a few seconds. But it did serve as a highly effective reminder of why I gave up capturing analog to DV more than a decade ago.

I believe we're talking about noisy home videos here, not professionally produced Hollywood animation. If a professional source looks as bad on DV as it does in your samples, do you really think a noisy home movie wouldn't look even worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I agree, But what other alternatives are available for compression besides DV?
DVD is worse.
Who told you that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Newer compression schemes are better but they don't make devices designed for SD capture with image control, TBC/DNR/Comb filter functions
Yes they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The only way for him to keep 30 tapes stored as uncompressed is to keep few TB's reserved on hard drive just to watch the files if he ever finds a media player to play them besides the computer
Who captures uncompressed? Why would anyone use a computer for storage? How do you play your DV videos without a computer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I believe it is not worth the effort for a low quality video from an analog tape.
Many people in this and other forums have been disproving your comment for many years.

The statement made earlier by a pro who knows better is that Hi/analog 8 doesn't fare so well with DV capture. A Hi8 camera is the solution. You could have 30 Hi8 tapes transferred by a pro to losslessly compressed media for encoding for less $$$ than the cost of the DV gear that does it poorly or the analog gear that can do it correctly. From that lossless source you can encode to whatever you want and archive as smaller files with high bitrate MPEG or h264 to get cleaner encodes than noisy DV with its denuded, plastic look.

Depends on your expectations. Analog to DV is quick but is noisy forever no matter what you do with it. On the other hand, why listen to pros with years of experience?
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  #9  
02-07-2016, 04:11 PM
Churchmouse Churchmouse is offline
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Thanks for all that. I AM considering a pro transfer, but am baulking at the cost of 30+ tapes at $30 a time....
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  #10  
02-07-2016, 04:29 PM
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The camera/VCR is only one part of the equation. The net cost of a quality transfer is always $1k or more. Then you have to do all the work yourself, and there's a learning curve to video. Trying to skimp on hardware is never going to end well.

Anything under $1500 is always my cutoff. In the end, it's going to be easier and (in most cases) cheaper.

Just keep that in mind.

We offer services here, and we help others as well. Just don't go into this thinking it's going to cost a few hundred at most, and you'll get pleasing video conversions. That's unfortunately not the reality of the situation.

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  #11  
02-07-2016, 04:53 PM
Churchmouse Churchmouse is offline
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Very kind - and there is a chap locally. I live in New Zealand, you see, so can't take up your offer, much as I would like to. But thanks for your wise words...
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  #12  
02-07-2016, 05:28 PM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Latreche 34

DV AVI 1 is full of errors
tearing ... see screen 00:31:10 and 00:32:10
Half pictures ...see screen i ZIP
double Frames [00:26:03 + 00:26:04]
here in zip a couple screens directly from Edius


Attached Images
File Type: jpg tearing.jpg (181.6 KB, 32 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Fehler.zip (7.09 MB, 11 downloads)
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  #13  
02-07-2016, 05:46 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I just breathed a sigh of relief. Thank goodness my captures don't have all that noise and motion fuzz. I couldn't stand watching that much noise for more than a few seconds. But it did serve as a highly effective reminder of why I gave up capturing analog to DV more than a decade ago.

I believe we're talking about noisy home videos here, not professionally produced Hollywood animation. If a professional source looks as bad on DV as it does in your samples, do you really think a noisy home movie wouldn't look even worse?

Who told you that?

Yes they do.

Who captures uncompressed? Why would anyone use a computer for storage? How do you play your DV videos without a computer?

Many people in this and other forums have been disproving your comment for many years.

The statement made earlier by a pro who knows better is that Hi/analog 8 doesn't fare so well with DV capture. A Hi8 camera is the solution. You could have 30 Hi8 tapes transferred by a pro to losslessly compressed media for encoding for less $$$ than the cost of the DV gear that does it poorly or the analog gear that can do it correctly. From that lossless source you can encode to whatever you want and archive as smaller files with high bitrate MPEG or h264 to get cleaner encodes than noisy DV with its denuded, plastic look.

Depends on your expectations. Analog to DV is quick but is noisy forever no matter what you do with it. On the other hand, why listen to pros with years of experience?
I wasn't suggesting DV capture, my tests were showing tape recording loss not DV loss, 1080p is better than DV dah , MPEG2 compressed SD capture was worse than DV compressed capture for me, I haven't done it with $1500 capture card though neither the poster will, But if you can provide the poster a sample capture of the same file with DV compression vs MPEG2 compression, the poster will decide if the difference worth spending $$$ for equipment.
We can talk all day long about how glory uncompressed capture vs compressed (DV/MPEG2 SD) but is it worth the time and money for an average user who just happened to have some tapes collecting dust in the closet.
My media players play all kind of files MPEG2, MPEG4 you name it including DV and HDV videos that I transferred from DV and HDV tapes from my previous camcorders.
Lastly what the heck losseless compression means, I need to know more about it, the only lossless compression that I know of is FLAC, DTS HD, Dolby HD Master and computer zip files.

My final thoughts, If I have tapes and I'm picky about quality and don't have the money to spend on a pro gear, I would just send them to a pro who can do it right and what I mean by a pro is someone you know thru a forum or a website not thru listings on ebay and craigslist for $5 a tape.
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  #14  
02-07-2016, 06:09 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
Latreche 34

DV AVI 1 is full of errors
tearing ... see screen 00:31:10 and 00:32:10
Half pictures ...see screen i ZIP
double Frames [00:26:03 + 00:26:04]
here in zip a couple screens directly from Edius
I'm not defending DV I know DV errors as well as any other compression scheme errors, On formats side, I'm old enough to remember the Beta vs VHS war so I know what is analogue video, But if you are suggesting options to someone you have to consider his knowledge, budget, the quality of media, and work load he has, I know uncompressed is better that is no doubt about it.
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  #15  
02-07-2016, 08:42 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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I did not intend to compare DV compression to MPEG2 compression, it is supposed to be compressed vs uncompressed, but since it was brought up, here is a MPEG2 capture with 500-USB using pinnacle studio 19, I did not change any setting except the bitrate which I pushed it up to 10 Mbps which is the maximum allowed, the capture may not be 10 Mbps as it uses variable BR, Since the resulting file is small I'm just going to attach it here, I used the exact same setup and video source except for swapping cables from VMC-1 to 500-USB.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg S-Video MPEG2 Capture.mpg (37.22 MB, 17 downloads)
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  #16  
02-08-2016, 01:45 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
Latreche 34
DV AVI 1 is full of errors
tearing ... see screen 00:31:10 and 00:32:10
The tearing is coming from the media player output I realized that shortly after hooking up the 500-USB and got the same result this could be due to a glitch in the player internal D/A chip, I was thinking my laptop was choking but when I hooked up the media player to a monitor I get the same problem, So it's neither DV/MPEG2 nor my computer fault, I never had that problem in the capturing process.
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