Capture analog using VirtualDub with camcorder passthrough?
Hello,
I've been reading the forums and guides here for the last week, and have learned a lot on how I might improve my capture process. However, I haven't had much success incorporating VirtualDub and using the Huffyub codec. My equipment: SR-V101US deck, Sony DCR-TV17 camcorder for analog to digital passthrough, PC running Windows 10 Up until this week, I had been using Premiere Element's to capture... which I now understand to be capturing in DV-AVI. I am about to embark on capturing about 50 hours of home videos, and wanted to improve my capture method. (I have read how the DV-AVI format can cause issues with color space, so that's what I'm currently concentrating on improving by switching to Huffyuv encoding.) STEPS I took: First Step: The forums here were immensely helpful in getting improved settings on the JVC deck. I now have it set to: Digital TBC/NR: On Video Calibration: Off Picture Control: Norm Digital R3: Off Video Stabilizer: Off This seems to work well (albeit with a seemingly softer picture... though, I now also understand that the Digital R3 was doing edge enhancement for me... and I'll do that later, with a better method, if necessary). Second Step (and where I am having a problem): Now I am trying to capture into a Huffyub AVI. I decided on Huffyub, because after reading everything here, I think I can afford the hard disk space... and this seems to be the best tradeoff to be as lossless as possible without being uncompressed. I followed the guides, and am using VirtualDub 1.10.4 (also tried 1.9.11) 32bit and Huffyub 32bit. I installed both on my Windows 10 machine. (And had to use the rundll32.exe method to install the codec.) In VirtualDub, I select Microsoft DV Camera and VCR (DirectShow), since that seems to be the only way I can actually see my Video Overlay. (It seems to be the only device choice that shows the video I'm trying to capture.) If I go to Video->Compression, I have to check to "Show all codecs, even if they may not work"... and then, and only then, do I see Huffyuv v2.1.1. However, if I try and capture video, I get a "Video compressor error: The source image format is not acceptable. (error code -2)" If instead I choose "(No recompression: dvsd)", then VirtualDub will capture video. But, I can't seem to get it to work using Huffyuv. Also, one other thing I noticed is that I can't configure PCM audio to be 48k like the guide suggests. I can select "<No compresion (PCM)>" in Audio->Compression, but that only seems to be capturing at 32k. I apologize in advance for these newbie questions. It seems like most people in the forums are using capture cards instead... and don't have this issue. I would certainly be willing to buy a capture card if it would make a big difference over using the DCR-TRV17's audio/digital passthrough for capture. Thanks in advance! |
Welcome to digitalfaq.
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You're using the wrong tools for what you want to do. Quote:
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For lossless you can't use DV passthrough. Remnove the camera and connect the VCR to a capture device designed for analog-to-lossless capture. Windows 10 is a video-unfriendly operating system, so your are pretty much limited to the Hauppauge USB Live-2. By the way, huffyuv isn't the only lossless compressor used around here: Huffyuv, Lagarith, and UT Video Codec are three lossless codecs that are fast enough for real-time capture. I use huffyuv for capture, Lagarith for restoration intermediate work files. |
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JVC S-VHS VCRs are suggested due to their filtering abilities. So buying the fancy VCR, only to always turn off the filters, is somewhat pointless. In general, it should be NORM. It reduces grain, and it has an effect on chroma noise as well. EDIT turns it off. The issue comes when certain tapes react poorly to the denoise. A VCR, unlike software controls, has on/off NR, not sliders to vary the degree on NR. So, sadly, off sometimes looks better than on. Now, you could argue that off is better, and software is king, but that's also wrong. Certain noises sometimes can't be cleaned up as well in software as can be done in hardware processing. As always, video isn't "one size fits all". :o And yes, sometimes it only "seems" softer, sharper, or the same. Your eyes play tricks on you, mostly because noise is confused as detail. Even software graphs/meters can be fooled. My pet peeve is reading that "Panasonic is sharper that JVC", which is false. Panasonic oversharpens at default, and everything has ringing halos. (Another big problem is that HDTV is warping our ideas of VHS. The longer we go into the HD era, the more "it's soft!" complaints that I see. The number of "can I convert VHS/8mm to 1080p/4k?" questions I see online is getting downright stupid lately.) Quote:
When you simply list the proper name, it auto-links. For now, it goes to the download page. But soon, very soon, it'll go to glossary entries! I'm working on that right now. I'm hoping to give you editor/mod access to that, along with some others here, so we can really enrich this site. |
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Thanks again for your (and lordsmurf's) quick and complete replies! I appreciate it! |
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When the capture device receives this digital stream it recognizes it as DV format and places the data in a container that is saved as a file on your PC so that it can be stored and played back. The name of the format is DV. The name of the container file is AVI. AVI can accommodate digital video using any of several codecs, including Xvid, lossless huffyuv or Lagarith, or DV Types 1 and 2, uncompressed, and others. |
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You have two threads, and I had to lock the other. While we like different threads per topic, this one was too close, and none of us want to repeat ourselves in two places. So I'll answer some of that here as well, where it differed. DV is probably wrong method, but even Huffyuv lossless may be the wrong method for your needs. So again, what are you trying to do? I only use lossless when the video needs further processing (restoration) and editing. When it's just an archive of an already-good tape, assuming good hardware in use (VCR, TBC, etc) then a 15mbps MPEG-2 capture works well. Premiere Elements = decent basic editor, terrible at capturing. Realize that DV AVI rapes chroma, squishing it to 4:1:1 NTSC, and is more likely the cause of blurry-looking video. The JVC EDIT/NORM debates is moot in light of this. When you only have half (or less) of the color signal, it's softer. As stated, Huffyuv is the term. It's Huffman-compressed YUV data. And it can only be used by certain capture cards. A DV box or DV camera 'hardware compresses' to DV, and unringing that bell if not possible. An incoming DV signal can't be losslessly compressed. Streaming formats are different yet again. You'll need to archive master copies as interlaced, and make a copy as deinterlaced for the streaming (progressive, non-interlaced) use. QTGMC is suggested, but you can get away with Yadif on some content. While H.264 (best MP4-wrapper streaming format) supports interlaced, devices rarely use it. DVDs/Blu-ray will stay interlaced. Again, DV throws away 50%+ of the color quality, and is a reason it looks softer. DV was fine for shot video, but DV was never intended for conversion. The loss appears much greater on converted video. You made no mention on external TBC. It;s needed as well. Internal just clean image, not cleans signal. See also: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...time-base.html |
Adding to latreche34's comment in your other thread, and to what lordsmurf has posted, I quote from your other thread:
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People often ask, as you do, if anyone can see a difference. The differences are apparent to many. But it's common that the average viewer will watch just about anything. I don't mean to infer a personal like or dislike for the religions, occupations, education, politics, ethnicity, or aesthetic taste of the "average viewer". But it's known that 1 in 10 men and 1 in 200 women on this planet are color blind, and most people have poor visual discrimination overall. It's a simple, widely recognized fact of the a/v marketplace. My own take on analog to DV is that the results look denuded, noisy, and have an etched, plastic look. Some don't see those effects, some do. The magic that makes analog video look "great" as digital video depends on capture, post processing, and encoding, which are elements for which DV is poorly optimized. DV is especially difficult for restoration work. Those are the conclusions of many who have worked with both DV and lossless for decades. Windows 10 is unfriendly for analog capture. The few workable capture devices that work with it for lossless capture are USB devices from Diamond Multimedia and Hauppauge. They cost less than $50. If you want better you can get ATI devices for XP thru Win7. If you want the affordable best, use XP with ATI All In Wonder cards that are specifically designed for analog-to-digital. |
Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of the help! Everything is starting to make a lot more sense, and you guys have been fantastic!
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It's clear to me that I don't want to capture in DV AVI. So, that means I need a new capture device. Quote:
You mentioned ATI devices available for Windows 7. What would be your best recommended capture device for Windows 7? Quote:
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The TBC-100 (or TBC-1000) sound ideal, but I can't seem to find either one anywhere. Are there any other suggestions on where to find either one? Otherwise, it sounds like the AVT-8710 is the way to go. These days do new units seem to be spared from the issues the chipsets were having a few years ago? (Sounds like the jvc menu was a good indicator if the unit was bad? Does that mean the best way is to buy one, and test for that to know if the unit is defective?) |
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You should use 32-bit apps for capture drivers, VirtualDub, Avisynth, compressors, etc., and 32-bit filters. Reason: see how many 64-bit filters you can find for VDub and Avisynth. Not many. But there are literally hundreds of 32-bit filters still working. Quote:
Hauppauge 610 USB2 capture stick ~$50 ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB2 capture stick ~$50-100 ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCI capture card (aka Diamond ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCI capture card) ~$50-100 ATI TV Wonder HD 650 PCI capture card (aka Diamond ATI TV Wonder HD 650 PCI capture card )~$50-100 (NOTE: Not the USB versions!) Quote:
You can deinterlace for progressive mp4 stream, but I strongly suggest: (a) Don't use Premiere Elements to do it. Use Avisynth and the QTGMC deinterlacer. (b) When 29.97 video is deinterlaced it has twice the number of original frames and plays at 59.94 fps. Don't use any deinterlacer that tries to stay at 29.97 by discarding interlaced fields or blending them. Discarding fields causes choppy motion and stutter. Field blending ruins your output. Neither can be repaired without your original files. The deinterlacers in Avisynth do a very clean job, but there's always something lost when interlaced video is deinterlaced. |
Thanks sanlyn!
lordsmurf, I was wondering if you might be able to chime in on my last reply above... in particular about the the TBC. Short of finding a TBC-100 or TBC-1000, it sounds like the green chassis AVT-8710 is the best way to go? (Though I've seen warnings about buying them on eBay, too.) Or, do the newest ones from B&H no longer suffer from the defects? Also, are the ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB2/ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCI devices considered the best post-Windows XP capture devices? (I saw lordsmurf's and others success in getting the USB version to work with Windows 7, but I didn't see much on the PCI version.) If so, and the USB version seems to have had the most luck (with no loss in quality vs. the PCI version), then will likely pick that up and try and get it working in Windows 10. Finally, this whole conversation has me pursuing a parallel path. I am working on resurrecting an old system with an Asus P4SD-LA motherboard, which has a 8x/4x AGP slot, and a decent Pentium 4 processor. The power supply is dead, and I see a couple of leaking capacitors... so working on getting this back into working order. If I'm successful, then this can be a dedicated XP capture box... and then I will pursue one of the AIW cards. (Probably a 9800 Pro, as it seems to be a fairly recommended card that also has a DVI output that I'll use for the monitor... or do you suggest using a second graphics card for primary video to try and reduce the risk of dropped frames?) Thanks! |
For those reading, I PM'd rf99 about some TBCs that I have available.
Also consider archiving important video to 15mbps MPEG-2 (Blu-ray spec, broadcast), not mere lossy DVD. It's what I do. H.264 doesn't handle interlace well, due to players and software being too narrow in scope. That happens with DVD as well. For example, not many people realize that DVD support MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 @ 352x240. It was terrible, yes, but not even possible to play/use easily. 4x/8x means all ATI AGP cards will work. PCI isn't the USB. USB is Empia, and I forget what the PCI was. It's not Empia that I recall. Don't mess with leaking caps. I started a fire once that way. Toss it. Get a new board/PSU/whatever that is. Yes, DVI much better than VGA. However, my main capture system uses a VGA, and is as clean as DVI. That's not typical, but can happen. If using a KVM, forget VGA, DVI only. Spend the $300. You can't use non-ATI graphic card on ATI AIW system. |
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