Capturing true digital quality for burning to Blu-ray?
Hi all,
I have a lot of videos that I recorded using a Digital Sony DCR-TRV340 http://www.mediacollege.com/equipmen...dcrtrv340.html I would like to burn them to Blu-Ray in the best quality possible. Since I'll be using Blu -Ray, file size is not an issue. I've already transferred a couple to my computer using 1394/firewire and Pinnacle Studio program in DV format. I always thought that the best capture format was DV, but after reading these two different posts in a forum I'm not sure what to believe. Read the 1st quoted article and then scroll down to the 3rd post by lordsmurf. I personally favor lordsmurf's information. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/myth...t-convert.html I should be able to just burn the captured DV video without converting it to a different format. However, when I playback the captured DV videos on my computer, they are just not as sharp as the couple that I captured as mpeg2. I assumed that the DV would be so much better because it captures at 3600 Kilobytes = 28,800 kilobits vs. mpeg2 capturing at only 10,000 Kilobits max. I'm thinking there has to be an issue with not having the correct DV codec. I'm also afraid that set top Blu-Ray players won't have the best DV codec's, since they're use to playing Mpeg2. On the hand, I think store purchased Blu-Ray's are sometimes in AVI format which the DV is in. What I don't understand is how does the player know to open the AVI container to get to the DV video? Another thing I'm a little confused about is my option for capturing to Mpeg2 actually shows as Mpeg1/2. Is this option mpeg2 or not, I've attached a print screen shot. https://www.dropbox.com/s/1f2ixhs7bv...G1or2.jpg?dl=0 I know there use to be an mpeg1 format , but that was way before they put out this camera, surely they used the newer mpeg2. I'm looking to do this right the first time, every time the video tapes get played they're being degraded a little more and I have 41 tapes to transfer. I also have an old version of Nero9 and Cyberlink Suite10 that I've used in the past for making Mpeg2 videos. Please don't tell me about different hardware and software to use, I'm not going to run out and buy a bunch of new stuff. I just need to know the best formatting options for what I currently have to work with. Thanks guys Wait a minute, hold up! Just found out something that I certainly didn't want to hear. Someone just told me that (Lordsmurf) stated in another post here that DV AVI will not play on a TV. Is this true? So how can I capture and burn my videos onto Blu-Ray in their original quality without having to compress them when converting to a different format. Is my only option to capture and burn them as Mpeg2 ?......which means I'll have to recapture about a dozen of them all over again. |
Hello, and welcome to digitalfaq :salute:
Hope this information doesn't spoil your day, but you seem to be on the wrong track..... Quote:
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MPEG1 is still in use. DVD is MPEG2. BluRay is MPEG2, h.264, or VC-1. Quote:
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Burning DV as you propose is not your only option, but it's definitely the wrong option. Quote:
Standard definition DV is best left as interlaced standard definition video in more universal formats. DVD and BluRay standard definition video are interlaced. The BluRay spec includes standard definition video at 4:3 and 16:9. BTW, if you're of the mind that everything that says BluRay is HD, it's not true. The advantage of standard def BluRay is that it can use higher MPEG/h.264 bitrates than DVD. If you had in mind that you would upscale standard definition video into big HD frames, you're in for the hassle of your life. No one would recommend your current software for the job anyway. Sorry, but I don't know where folks get some of their information about video. I'd suggest staying clear of consumer blogs and stick to tech forums with higher standards and more accurate information. A big problem with using average NLE's is that you won't learn much about video or about getting better results. They make all your decisions for you, usually incorrectly, and figure you'll accept just about anything for results. I think you've found they aren't really doing you any favors. Can you post information about your operating system? Also, it would be useful if you could tell us how how you're handling your videos after they're on the PC. Are you color correcting, adding titles, transitions, or whatnot? -- merged -- Sorry, I didn't complete answering one of your concerns. Must have hit "delete" or something and didn't notice. Quote:
a) Don't capture digital video. Don't record it. Copy the digital video stream from tape with WinDV or similar drivers designed for DV via Firewire. Note that this is a copy, not a damaged re-encode from Pinnacle or any NLE, and not a second-stage lossy re-encode to MPEG. b) You can use your current software for editing and encoding to a final format. But surely you can do better than Pinnacle or Nero/Cyberlink at little or no cost. DV is noisy compression not designed for modification -- anything beyond simple cut and join will degrade quality. Color Correction, denoising, title overlays, transitions, etc., require re-encoding. So decode your DV copy to a lossless intermediate codec for cleanup and advanced processing. And keep in mind that many consumer NLE's can't read many lossless working codecs, but a few good ones work everywhere. c) Encode to final format of choice (DVD, BluRay, mp4, AVCHD, etc). There are better encoders than those you use now, and they're free. d) Author DVD or BluRay for burning to disc w/menus, etc., using whatever software you want. Authoring doesn't involving encoding. Then burn to your heart's content. And hope grandma has a BluRay player. Alternative: You can capture directly to DVD for second-rate results that have slightly worse compression artifacts than your DV originals, but won't look horrible except for invalid video levels that destroy some details thru clipping. At average or lower DVD bitrates used by most consumers, the artifacts will look much worse. But MPEG/DVD is not compatible for BluRay and is a final format not designed for heavy edits or image mods. You'll have to encode again for BR, so you'd go from original to second-rate to third-rate. |
I had success with some media players playing both DV and HDV, Also Kodi plays DV/HDV on almost every Android media player.
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What media players? The owner could use more detail.
Did you copy DV-AVI files to USB stick, external hard drive, or external media drives, or burn DV to optical disc and play them on TV? Which external media players did you use to play DV-AVI successfully on a TV? |
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You should offer more details to BlackSnake on the use (and cost) of those components and advise how he can get copies for family and friends. I think it's a bit troublesome to spend more bucks and set up more hardware/software instead of processing DV-AVI video correctly into more universal formats. But BlackSnake might be into collecting more hardware and stuff. I don't see any documentation on the video formats those devices can manage. Have any links?
Meanwhile the O.P. wants to get DV tape onto BluRay but hasn't responded so far. |
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Actually, about eight years ago I captured all these videos as mpeg2 and burnt to DVD. The picture quality wasn't too bad, and only a couple little movement issues/motion blur in a couple places on a couple DVD's. The actual captured file had good picture quality and no movement issues. This only happened after lowering the bit rate to 6000 (to fit to DVD) and then burning to DVD. I just figured it was time to put them on BluRay before the tapes degrade anymore over time. And since BluRay has such a large storage capacity why not try DV, the original raw footage. I had no idea that TV's could not play a DV AVI file. As for the DV captures not playing as sharply as the mpeg2 captures, I was able to copy the DV codec from Pinnacle and install for my player to use. The DV picture quality looks better than the mpeg2 captures now. They look really good for a 720 x 480 resolution. It kills me not to be able to burn this quality to BluRay. Quote:
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Current setup Gigabyte 990FXA-UD5 Rev. 3.0……….….MB AMD FX-8350………………………….….CPU 2 Mushkin Silverline 992074 8GB…… ….Memory Seagate Barracuda ST3000DM001 3TB… ..HDD - Storage Western Digital WD2003FZEX 2TB….…..HDD – Win XP Pro 32Bit Samsung 840 EVO 120GB………………....SDD – Win 7 Pro 64Bit Seasonic M12II-650 ATX 650 Watt………..Power Supply MSI Nvidia Geforce 660 TF 2GBD5/OC…..Video Card I'm not doing anything with the captured videos, in the past I only had one video per DVD so was no need for menu or chapters. Really not worried about titles, transitions, etc. My only concern is having the best picture quality possible. I don't know anything about color correcting, but the color was just fine on the mpeg2 DVD's that I made from these tapes in the past. This time when capturing I made sure that TBC was turned on and I think it made an improvement. There was no noticeable difference when having NR turned On or Off. Quote:
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That's horrible. You start with 4:2:2 (assuming VHS/Video8 sources), compress is down to 4:1:1, and then compress that down to 4:2:0. It's the video equivalent of putting your color quality through a shredder first. It's reduces the hell out of the chroma by double converting it needlessly. Pick one! Either use 4:2:2 to 4:2:0, or simply start with 4:2:0 to begin with. " So wouldn't it make more sense to just transfer tapes as Mpeg2 and burn to BluRay. I mean what other format would I convert the DV-AVI to anyway that would use less compression than Mpeg2? Quote:
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If you captured DV to Pinnacle and ended up up with a higher bitrate, your capture was re-encoded. As DV is lossy compression to begin with, you lost more with another DV encode from Pinnacle. A higher bitrate minimized the loss, but you can't change bitrates without re-encoding. WinDV just copies, it doesn't re-encode. If you like the Pinnacle DV re-encode better, use that video to make your BluRay.
MPEG2 can't be burned to BluRay disk except as a data disk. Some players will take it, some won't. If you want BluRay, you have to re-encode for BluRay. BluRay can't use the file structure from a DVD\MPEG capture. They are different formats. BluRay players can play a few other common codecs, including MPEG2. The formatting they accept varies with players. I realize that BluRay is digital video, but there are dozens of other digital formats. They all differ. You can't use one codec to play other codecs. There are media players with their own codecs and codec packs like ffdshow that can handle just about anything. But BluRay is BluRay. It's not anything else. There are free encoding apps such as MultiAVCHD and AVCHDCoder that can decode DV and re-encode it to BluRay. The freebies use Avisynth to decode AVi's and make BluRay or AVCHD compatible folders for authoring and/or burning. I don't use the freebies, as they're lacking in features and you pretty much have to know what you're doing. But they work. If you're not going into any post-processing or just want simple cut-and-join operations, there are paid apps $100 or lower that do it better, such as TMPGEnc Authoring Works which decodes, encodes, authors, and burns. Paid apps have more features, are easier to use, and are more reliable about encoding to strict BluRay/DVD/AVCHD standards using industry-wide licensing and which play anywhere. There are plenty of apps around that can give you better encodes than Pinnacle. Software for other tasks such as mentioned (color work, noise cleanup, etc.) are well-known freebies like Avisynth and VirtualDub. But as you say, you won't need those. Quote:
DV to MPEG is a double loss because of two compression stages. And because many DV-to-MPEG devices, like many apps, don't do such a great job of it. And because many MPEG encoders are garbage. And because you'll get cleaner encodes to MPEG or BluRay by giving Dv some of the cleanup it needs. DV compression artifacts don't translate well to other lossy codecs as-is. Two sets of compression artifacts on top of each other won't cut the mustard if you're looking for the best you can get. |
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If you want an authored Blu-ray Disc from a DV source, it is certainly possible to make one that is "visually transparent" to the original file even though there will technically be losses.
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These are apparently two different tapes. That's the reason for the audio bitrate difference. The one that you captured with WinDV was originally recorded with lower-quality 32kHz audio, and is faithfully represented in that lower-quality form. I suspect the Pinnacle software is copying the data 1:1 for DV sources. I don't agree that the word "capture" exclusively applies to analog sources, nor does the author of WinDV. "WinDV is a small and easy to use Windows application for capturing videos from DV device (camcorder) into AVI-files and for recording AVI-files into DV device via FireWire (IEEE 1394) interface." Capture = ingest, IMO. |
Okay guys, I finally put out the money for a copy of TMPGEnc Authoring Works 5. The problem now is that there is no manual available on how to use it. Sure, I can click on the help button which takes me to Contents & Search but it's just not the same as an actual manual, it will take a year and a day to figure it out this way. Plus, I can't find an answer to my question there.
Does anyone here actually have TMPGEnc Authoring Works 5. I'm trying to copy DV videos with it, but it's breaking the video down into clips instead of keeping it as one whole movie and there is no option to change it. I can live with that, but it creates a new issue. I want to put two or three video tapes on each Blu-Ray disc, but can't find a way to insert a chapter between 2 clips in order to separate the two or three videos. It will only let me insert a chapter within a selected clip, not between two different clips. Here is an example: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2f3d2ug0r...00000.MTS?dl=0 Lets suppose that clips 1,2, and 3 are from one tape and clips 4,5, and 6 from from a second tape. How can I insert a chapter between clip 3 and 4 to separate the two tapes? Thanks |
I have yet another TMPGEnc Authoring Works 5 question since I can't find it in the Help Contents. What's the difference between a Track and a Chapter. I know a Track as being the next song on a CD, and a Chapter being the next part of a movie. For some reason TMPGEnc Authoring Works 5 wants me to put clips into a track.
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Every separate video clip that you enter into an authoring program (from anyone, not just TMPGenc) is entered as either a "track" or video "clip" or "file". If you press a button that says "Add a Track", the authoring program will create a new track for it. If you click a button that says "Add A file" or Add a "Clip", the new file is added to the current track -- there is always a default Video/Audio track (and it's always Track 1), so a "file" gets added to it.
A chapter is a division of a video clip into different parts. Every video file or clip that you import, and every a/vc "track" that you add, will be a new Chapter by default, which you can either set to ignore for playback break or chapter icons, or which you can break into more chapters. If you have added multiple tracks to a project instead of adding files as part of a single defauit track, then you can set the programming to play all tracks as one, or "play next track". But that will complicate your menus, which you have arranged as separate tracks every time you added a new track instead of just adding a "file". This "track"/"file" business works the same way with all authoring programs. You either add files to an existing track (there is always a default Track 1), or you add new clips as new and separate tracks. Good luck finding an authoring program these days that has a separated printed user manual. Like all standard Windows programs, TMPGEnc's Help can be opened to a content menu that presents the material in sequence, as in a manual. You're also probably aware by now that the DV format can't be used for DVD or BluRay. TMPGEnc will automatically encode for DVD or BluRay, according to what you tell the program you want for output. |
Wow, that's what I call service, I wasn't expecting a response for several days........thanks.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm 52/old school. I have always just used Nero and Pinnacle to make DVD's and I'm use to the way those programs worked. I don't remember any mention of track in those programs in regards to video, it was always just import video or file like you stated. Maybe there were Tracks, but I never noticed because I always did everything within the 1st track. I would simply import lets say 5 music videos and insert a chapter between each one. Then I would create a menu that would show the five chapters with a video name for each. When watching the DVD if I wanted to go to a certain music video I would hit menu and select the chapter with that music video on it. I think I understand it now. For instance, lets say I have 3 DV tapes that want to burn to Blu Ray. I would 1st copy each tape that would give me a couple clips for each one that automatically go into a folder. When I'm ready to make a disc I would insert all the clips from one video/tape folder into the 1st track, then select another Track and insert all the clips from second folder, select yet another track and insert remaining clips from third folder. When creating the menu the Tracks are going to be separating the 3 videos instead of using Chapters the way I use to do it. The chapters will still technically be there separating the clips within the tracks, but as long as I choose a template that only shows the Tracks I won't notice the chapters, the Track will still play as one long movie........do I have it correct now? Quote:
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DVD, standard definition BluRay are never encoded as square-pixel. They are anamorphic formats (10:11 NTSC 4:3 or 40:33 NTSC 16:9 DAR). Square-pixel cannot be specified for DVD or standard def BluRay. If you had a 640x480 or some other specifically 4:3 physical frame size you could specify square pixel for some other encoded formats, but not for DVD or standard def BluRay. If you had some oddball frame size that you wanted to play as 4:3, you would specify 4:3 playback and then hope that a player can handle it if the original frame size is not too weird.
I was not aware that you have such little basic understanding of video formats. You need a more simplified tool. Try Pinnacle or Corel Movie Studio Platinum. |
Blu-ray spec is MPEG or AVC/H.264, with many requirements (like DVD) for resolution/bitrates/etc/
DV (as AVI or MOV) is raw video, meant to edit and encode. DV is not watch-ready format. It must first be encoded into something else. Skipping ahead, as I just saw that part was from 2016. :smack: TMPGEnc authoring software uses terms that are not really existent in the DVD/BD specs. Track refers to the VTS (for DVD, similar for BD), and chapters are on-screen/title navigation. You never see tracks/VTS. Chapters are what you see when you press the chapter skip button on the remote. A VTS can only hold like content. For example, 352x480 and 720x480 cannot share VTS on DVD. For BD, SD and HD cannot share. So a new track/VTS is needed. Again, you never see this unless you're authoring in software. Make sense? Don't use Nero. Yuck. Don't use Pinnacle. Again, yuck. This site is here for you to get much better quality than those allow! @sanlyn: Actually, BD is square pixel. 1280x720 (720p) and 1920x1080 (1080p) are square. Well, the pixels are square, the image is obviously rectangular. DVD had the odd pixels that turned to 640x480 or 720x540 effective (4x3), or 720x404 for widescreen (16x9). He doesn't need easier tools. He came to this site for knowledge. :wink2: |
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I never knew that tracks were used to separate videos with different resolutions on the same disc. Learned something new. Quote:
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My other issue is the Bitrate limits. A BD disc is capable of 40Mpbs for video, yet mpeg2 for BD is set to 8000kb/s or 8 Mbps when using the Auto (Smart rendering prioritized) option and a set max limit of 15000 kb/s or 15 Mbps (little more than 1/3 of the 40 Mbps capability) when using the (Re-encode all video as below) option. Another thing that I noticed is that it makes me choose one of the 5 Output Format presets. How can I create just a straight Mpeg2 video file? If I choose "DVD Video" I'll end up with a DVD structure folder containing several .VOB files. If I choose any of the other ones I'll end up with a .m2ts stream file for BD or a AVCHD file. Thanks for all your help |
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I'm afraid lordsmurf is losing sight of some details. "BD" is BluRay. BluRay includes a standard definition spec for MPEG encoding at 720x480 or 720x576 for regulation BluRay (that's anamorphic, if you recall, not square pixel) at either 4:5 or 16:9 DAR. For MPEG-4/MPEG SD encoding the max bitrate is 15MBPS (youi can go higher with h.264). There are other restrictions as well, to which TAW5 holds fast, along with other reputable authoring apps. https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533 For non-compliant video you don't want any dedicated authoring app, you want a general encoder, one like Nero that enforces no standards and allows anyone to create nonplayable video at will, about which tech forums see many complaints and confusion. |
Whatever you do, save the raw Digital8 DV footage because that's the best quality you have, any thing you do later will loose quality, So if you have the original DV footage you can always go back to it in case you screw something up.
Like I mentioned in my old posts above there are ways to view DV files on modern media players, for instance an android media player running KODI will play AVI files at least my nVidia shield does. |
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DVD-Video player is accurate, and merely uses DVD media. BDMV/BDAV player is accurate, and merely uses Blu-ray media. The problem comes from using them interchangably. I blame morons that made the formats. See also DV. You can put anything on BD media. But to get it to play in BD player (as BDMV/BDAV) it must be authored. TMPGEnc Authoring Works authors. But you must first encode to MPEG or H.264 that it wants. That can be done in Avidemux (freeware), or another TMPGEnc tool ($$). I've considered Kodi players myself. Right now I use WDTV. The WDTV has some limitations, and DV is one. I'd want Kodi for FLV, as I have many. |
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