Is the Elgato Video Capture limiting my quality?
 

Hey guys,

So I've been lead to believe this forum is the place to be for advice on VHS and digitising! Was feeling nostalgic and wanted to digitise my old VHS and VHS-C home recordings. So I impulsively found a £10 VCR (LG PDC LV880 - no idea if it's good or not, but it works!) in the nearest charity shop, I was amazed I even found one at all. Picked up the worlds shittiest CRT for £5, A VHC-C to VHS adapter and the Elgato Video Capture device (have PC and Mac, but ideally wanted something that was Mac compatible too and this device had decent reviews).

I've just finished doing a few tape transfers, incredibly easy to do, but the quality is pretty crap and I'm not satisfied! I'm almost satisfied just by having them digitised even at all, but I crave more! It seems I'm unable to rip them at above 25fps, and 640x480 is the max resolution... If I watch the videos directly on the little CRT tv, the frame rate is obviously vastly better, the picture quality is better and the colours are nicer. Obviously you're going to lose some quality when transferring to digital, but I feel like there's a lot more that I could get somehow. From watching the tapes on TV it's clear that they're not 25fps recordings, so where is the limiting factor in my set up? I assume the VCR is not the issue, so it must be either my software, the Elgato device or both. I have tried using Virtualbox, and I was still unable to get more than 25fps, but I didn't really know what I was doing, I've never used that program before.

I know you're all shaking your heads at my choice of the Elgato, but do any of you know it enough to say whether this is the problem? I mean... I assume it'd be possible to rip these videos at 50 or 60fps with the right kit...

If it is the culprit, I can easily return it, so does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement that's within a similar price range (doesn't have to be Mac compatible, but that'd be nice) that would allow me to make higher quality captures with better FPS and higher resolutions? Would the Dazzle DVC-100 work?

Thank you :)

ps. I am a total dunce when it comes to technical terms and formats etc, please be kind!

Welcome to digitalfaq. :)

If you have a cheap VCR and no knowledge of video processing, you can't expect the higher quality that would be possible with better equipment and skillful processing. Many of us don't own or use the "best" or most expensive hardware or software. But with workable equipment, learned skills, and accurate information, we achieve very good results.

I'm sorry to tell you that changing the frame rate of your 25fps tapes will not improve image quality. If you visit your nearest cinema house you might be disappointed to learn that the Hollywood and Shepperton Studio movie films you see on the cinema screen don't display at 25fps, but at slower frame rates. Movies and TV shows on cable TV have not had their frame rates modified.

You can't expect good quality captures with the LG unit. You will find yourself struggling with results of very poor playback. You have no line level tbc to correct common VHS scanline timing errors, no frame-level tbc to clean the output signal for precise frame rate timing, no stable tracking, noise reduction, or high quality video tape heads to help generate a cleaner image. Also, Elgato makes several video capture devices -- different Elgato models accept different sources and capture or record to different digital formats. Most Elgato models are unsuitable for VHS capture, regardless of their advertised claims.

This forum has several capture and processing guides, and thousands of public posts that discuss video capture, video processing and video equipment. The internet has dozens of video forums similar to this one. You might want to begin with the forum's digital video and capture guides, here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm.

VHS tape was developed during the CRT era. I agree that old analog sources that play well on a CRT look like garbage on a new HDTV, and that technology such as LCD cells were an inferior choice for visual media that involves motion. A new TV is even worse for older media that has a lot of noise, such as VHS tape. Such sources will look cleaner on a CRT, but you are not correct in thinking that a CRT modifies the frame rate.

Hey man, thanks for the detailed reply! Yeah, as you say, I can see from browsing this site that it's a vast topic that you could sink a hell of a lot of money into and still not achieve perfect results. That said, I knew my results wouldn't be superb with what I bought, I just expected something a little better, and it's left me wanting more. It should be said too that the videos i've digitised so far are absolutely passable copies for the sake of posterity, they look decent when viewed on their own, it's only when I did a side-by-side comparison with the tape on the CRT that I realised how much smoother it ran amongst other things.

Re. 25fps. So you're saying there's no point to ripping them at above that? Are the tapes themselves recorded at 25fps, or is this is a limitation in the analog to digital process? Perhaps the quality remains the same, but surely they would appear noticeably smoother?

And yeah, when I bought the LG VCR I was just happy to have found a working unit in a local shop. I hadn't done any research. I've been checking out the resources on your site and I would love to find an affordable VCR with TBC capabilities... but I just can't find any here in the UK at the moment. At least not in my price range. Ultimately, I would like better quality, not 'the best' quality - so I'd be happy to spend a bit more on improving that, but not too much!

The Elgato device I have is designed for VHS to digital use, it's just called the Elgato Video Capture. It seems a bit rubbish that it has such harsh limitations though, 640x480 25fps... Clearly it's good enough for video capture purely for the sake of having some digital records, but the quality really leaves a lot to be desired and I would rather have something a bit more suitable for VHS capture as you say.

Also, you'll probably think this is stupid - but having this LG VCR isn't all bad. I really love that lofi and unique artifacting and distortion you get from VHS and dodgy VCRs. I want to make the most of this for some future film projects, rather than just use some VHS simulator plugin. So while I'd like my old home movies to be as good as I can get them, I will also need the exact opposite. I'll save that for a future thread though, as I have a lot of questions about that.

Sorry if all the above questions make you want bang your head against a brick wall, but I really appreciate the help! I'll carry on reading some of your resources but honestly it's a little overwhelming, the sheer amount of choice when it comes to VCRs, capture cards, software.

PAL VHS tape plays at 25fps. NTSC tape plays at 29.97 fps. Notice, the two statements say that these tapes play at a specified frame rate via hardware designed for proper playback with each tape format.

Agreed, learning this video stuff looks challenging at first. I began my initial research 14 years ago and managed to get almost everything I needed to know during a weekend from reading and keeping notes on multi-page beginner's guides such as the one here. The rest was detail, one detail at a time, acquired as I worked. This doesn't mean I read a ton of 4-paragraph "tutorial" sites on some clueless mass-consumer blog like Cnet or PC mag, which I recognized from the outset were oversimplified, misleading, and often just stupid. There's more to video work than pushing buttons and clicking icons, which can be learned in a couple of hours if you use the dumbed-down stuff made for average consumers in a rush with low quality standards. It's like getting your digital photos printed at the local variety store using their automatic coin-operated printer booths.

On the other hand there are tricks aplenty that are handy enough to pick up from tech forum posts. Tech forums aren't like chat rooms. They're deigned and operate as channels of information exchange. A guide introduces you to the basics, then leads to further detail, then links to yet more discussions about specific issues, which in turn link to still more resources. One of the first things newcomers learn is to get away from the thinking behind all-in-one video processing package. The vast majority of these packages do everything for you, which is another way of saying that you don't need to have a clue about what's going on, nor do you you have no control over the results, nor do you have to learn anything new.

The choice in VCRs, good-quality capture devices and hardware, and good working software is not as unlimited as you'd think. If you find the names of 15 recommended capture cards in a list, try finding any two of them; once you do, one of them likely has limitations you don't want.

Odd that you mentioned the Elgato software limited to capturing standard definition at 640x480. That might be a limitation using their software. No one in this forum would recommend their software for capture or for anything else. We've had a few members report successfully capturing PAL VHS to the preferred 720x576 for PAL as lossless YUY2 digital working files using VirtualDub, but they had to go through hoops with third-party software to do so conveniently and with the proper setup tools. If you object to 640x480 because you're of a mind to capture VHS sources to high definition frame sizes, you're in for a great disappointment. Low-def upsampled to hi-def isn't high definition, it's just low definition blown up into big frames riddled with smeary artifacts. It's high source resolution that defines high definition, not frame size. In working with video you'll find plenty of low-definition garbage in big frames.

Elgato and others like to define certain digital formats as the only choices. It's a shame the way thisa marketing hype seduces newcomers into thinking that VHS captured to standard lossy "digital formats" will magically look like "digital video". No, it will look like rotten dirty noisy crumby VHS with added digital compression artifacts, encoded into digital form that defies further cleanup or improvement and can't be edited without further damage.

During the past two or three weeks alone you'll find enough posts and samples to replace a term of college video classes. In addition to the forum guides and posts, you'll find info at sites like AfterDawn and its post-processing guides. Or if you really want to get into the geeky zen of truly hardnosed capture and processing minutiae, you can find many guides at doom9.

I'll reply more later, but I saw a few comments when skimming.

@beef (funny name!)
- The VCR will never yield decent results.
- Which exact Elgato? Some are good, some not. Elgate is just a brand name. ("I drive a VW" can mean a bug or sports car.)
- There is a middle ground between $$$$$ perfection and $ crap. It's not binary.
- I'd not bother with CRT viewing anymore. That will hide flaws that you'll see later.
- Be careful with cheap all-plastic VHS-C adapters. Many eat tapes!

@sanlyn
- Doom9 doesn't have much on capturing methods, just the hardware (diagrams, drivers, etc).
- Afterdawn is vastly outdated, and was never focused on video, aside from copying DVDs and downloading torrents.

More later...

@lordsmurf and @sanlyn, you absolute legends. I will reply in more detail too when I get home later. I love having all my idiotic preconceptions about tech and electronics dashed in seconds, sincerely :)

Definitely wasn't hoping for modern HD resolutions, but I feel like 720x480 would be a large improvement over 640 would it not? I just haven't been able to do this with the Elgato Video Capture so far, could well be my own ignorance over a hardware limitation. I must say I was a bit confused to see the suggested capture size in one of your guides is 352x480 for VHS... Ultimately, it's probably not that important for me anyway; they'd sooner end up being played back on laptop screens watching via Youtube than being burned to DVD and watched on gigantic TVs.

But anyway, I have many more questions - thank you both and I shall return!

Your 25 frame-per-second home videos are really 50 fields-per-second. The CRT is showing them at 50Hz, the Elgato software is wrecking them, and a proper 25 fps capture would display them with what is often called "combing". For computer display, a proper 25 fps capture can then be processed to create a 50 fps encode. This process (double-rate deinterlacing, bob deinterlacing, bobbing, similar terms) is generally destructive, so we recommend keeping archived files in the original interlaced state.

On Windows, use VirtualDub instead of the Elgato software. Their application blends fields into frames, at least when MP4 output is chosen (bottom of this post and images here).

You should be capturing at a vertical resolution of 576, not 480, unless you have tapes produced outside of the UK using the North American standard. This is very important.

To store enough video on a tape cheaply, the VHS format sacrifices horizontal resolution. This is why 352 horizontal pixels is sufficient to represent all of the picture detail. The S-VHS format was later invented to improve upon this.

Hey thanks for the help and for explaining it. It's slowly starting to piece together, and that all makes sense to me - it's just the refresh rate of the CRT that makes them seem so much smoother. If the Elgato isn't allowing me to capture a proper 25fps, do you have any recommendations for a similarly priced device that would as swapping to something better wouldn't be an issue (gotta love Amazon returns policies). I will investigate deinterlacing/decombing too, thanks for that. I would like to start from the ground up though, as I assume there's limited reasons to look into that when I'm still using the Elgato to capture? Or is the device fine, but the capture method wrecking the FPS?

I'm just about to go test out Virtualbox and experiment with resolutions and codecs. Will report back later. Would it be okay to upload some short video samples to get feedback on?

Regarding that, my tapes were all recorded in the late 80s/90s within the UK, so I have no reason to believe otherwise. I will look into capturing at 576.

Samples are welcomed.

My understanding is that video capture peripherals cannot be used through VirtualBox. I thought you had an actual PC available?

The Elgato itself is not preventing you from capturing proper, interlaced 25 fps. One of the links in my post was to a thread where a guy posted an Elgato clip that was then deinterlaced to 50 fps for him. You just need to avoid using their bundled software.

Oops I meant Virtualdub, not sure where Virtualbox came from, never even used it. I'll give capturing on my PC a go.

So I have some free time today, trying to experiment with Virtualdub to see if I can get better results and I've already run into a problem... The Format..." option under the drop down Video menu is greyed out for me. Meaning I can't select resolution or compression mode... Any idea why this is? I can't seem to figure it out.

Edit. It's doing my head in! Format still greyed out but there's a "set custom format" option I can use which appears to let me click it. Only issue is that selecting any format option other than UYVY gives the "this capture device does not support the selected video format" error message sadly.

It lets me select 720x576, but I haven't actually tried capturing anything yet, so I'll see if makes a difference.

-- merged --

So it appears to have worked regarding the resolution! File size is colossal, and I will look into comparing it with the Elgato software capture in a bit - will upload some samples if I can.

Only bit I wasn't sure about is what FPS to select within VirtualDub - I know now that PAL VHS plays at 25fps, but I just didn't know whether to set the FPS in virtualdub at 25fps or higher if I want to try and "decomb" it at a later date so it looks better on a computer monitor. I just went with 25fps.

BTW does anyone have any links to guides on the best ways to convert these mammoth 20+ gigabyte files to much smaller ones without sacrificing quality? I'll keep the originals on a hard drive but I need smaller ones (<1GB) to send all my relatives.

It's normal for Format to be greyed out. As I recall, it's one of the direct hooks that can only be accessed by the old VFW driver model. The modern DirectShow interface packages most/all of the settings into Capture Pin and Capture Filter.

UYVY is fine. It's the same data as YUY2 (YUYV) in a different order. UYVY 720x576 at 25fps is correct.

While capturing, compress with a lossless codec like Huffyuv. This will still create large files, but half as big as uncompressed. I don't personally know of a good up-to-date starting guide on compressing for delivery.

No worries thank you, I'll look into good ways to compress them later, still got to capture a few dozen first. I have been using Huffyuv (I think! I've followed the guides here as closely as possible) - i've done a bit of comparing the two, and the differences are pretty obvious. Much sharper picture, overall seems smoother and better quality. Also seems like the Elgato software crops the frame somewhat, as there's a border of sorts around the Vdub capture, and a distorted line running across the very bottom edge (it doesn't really bother me, but I imagine this is the kind of thing a TBC would sort out).

So it's nearly all positive, except that the audio is totally out of sync when I capture with Vdub. I don't have any other programs running or anything, and it reported 0 frames dropped. Yet the audio was totally borked - the Elgatos audio was fine, so this must be a problem with Vdub or my capture settings surely? I suppose I could always sync the audio in another program, but this is less than ideal. A quick google shows that it's quite a common problem, but doesn't immediately present a solution... The only thing I've seen so far is people suggesting to use AmarecTV instead.

VitualDub's default capture setup configuration ( as well as other software's) defaults can't be ideal for every variation in capture cards. The image below shows VDub timing options I've used with several cards over a long period of time, without problems. In VirtualDub capture's top menu, use "Capture..." -> "Timing..." to access the Timing options dialog. Resync modes are usually the culprit with many cards. The settings I've been using for AGP and USB cards alike are shown below:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1467190388

Side borders, lower border noise: The noise along the bottom border is universally common everyday VCR head-switching noise. In post processing it's cropped and replaced with black pixels, or simply masked. Many newcomers to post processing will cut off that border and then resize the image to fit, not realizing how much damage they're inflicting.

By some SMPTE engineering standards, varies devices play/record/capture 4:3 video in 704 of the 720 horizontal pixels. You will find so many variations of this standard, as well as many devices which ignore it, that it's simply hilarious. On most VCR/capture card combinations I have side borders of one kind or another. Tapes I made on cheap VCR's in the early 90's playback today with thick rippling white borders along each side. Then I'll get one tape from the same era that plays with no borders at all, not even bottom head switching noise. Go figure.

Again, in post processing these are handled in numerous ways.

If you are using VirtualDub's audio preview while capturing, don't.

I don't recommend using those Resync options with capture devices that include onboard audio, like these USB sticks. They were designed to deal with the differing clocks involved when you capture audio with a separate device, like All-in-Wonder + sound card. I would choose "Do not resync" here.

Thanks to msgohan for that comment, which I neglected to mention earlier.

With USB devices as msgohan describes, "Do not resync" (which is the default, if I recall) is usually preferred. The problem with all those options is the way different cards respond to them. I've used the options pictured in post #15 with two All In Wonders + sound card, a borrowed ATI600 USB, a VC500 USB, a trial of an EZCap from the original maker, and 3 different XP machines. I can turn on audio preview while setting up for capture, but with USB devices it should be turned off. VDub let's you view an audio levels display during capture with audio preview turned off, if you feel insecure about that with USB cards.

I had audio sync problems on only 3 captures. On one occasion I used the F5 key to start capture and had audio progressively out of sync within 20 minutes. On occasion #2 I used the mouse to click "Capture..." and then "Capture Video", and had the same sync problem. I've never had audio sync problems by starting a capture with the F6 key. F5 is called the old "compatibility mode" audio option. I've been told and have read that F5 no longer applies, and that using F5 or F6 made no difference. So on occasion #3 I started a capture using the F5 key and had audio out of sync within 20 minutes. Your mileage might differ. I always use F6.

With Windows 7 it's roulette all the way.

Hey guys, once again thanks so much for sharing your insight and knowledge and offering advice!

I haven't had much time to sit down with all my tapes the past week, hopefully I will tomorrow. I *believe* i may have sorted out the audio sync problems using Sanlyn's timing options, and making sure that audio preview was off this time around. Made sure 'do not resync' was turned off. I only did a short test clip, so it remains to be seen whether it would drift out of sync with a full length capture.

Not sure whether it's just superstition at this point but I used F6 to start and clicked 'stop capture'. Lo and behold, perfect audio (so far!) :wink2:

Gave the tape heads in the VCR a good clean to boot. No idea how to adjust tracking, especially without a remote, but that probably wouldn't hurt either. Speaking of VCRs, I've been looking far and wide for a VCR with TBC built in, seems they are extremely hard to come by here in the UK (at least at reasonable prices), unless you really know what you're looking for. Found a potential vast improvement over my current hunk of junk though: an auction for a JVC HR-DVS2U (with no remote) going rather cheap at the moment. Has 4 heads, compared to my current 6, but on paper it seems to be an improvement in most other ways. I'll see if i can snag it!

Edit.

Seems I spoke too soon. Audio is fine with short clips, but it drifts out of sync every time with longer ones.

Just tried a few tapes from 40 minutes to 3 hours and the audio ends up well behind the video every time, even if it starts off in sync.

Any suggestions?

The resync function setting is often a hurdle for different capture cards and audio card combinations. The best alternate choice is msghohan's suggestion to select "Do not resync" under resync mode. However, before you do that, check your "Audio" menu and make sure "Compression" is set to uncompressed PCM, and under Audio "raw capture format" your sampling rate should be 48KHz @16-bit. Some sampling frequency settings can result in sync drift.

Oops, I just noticed this from an earlier post, so may as well check out a few details:

,LOL, you should be more certain than that. If you set video compression to hufyuv, that's what Virtualdub will use.

You should also have "Video" custom format set to 720x480 for NTSC (720x576 for PAL), with YUY2 or UYVY color.

During capture, watch in "Preview" mode, not "Overlay" mode.

You can turn on audio playback only to preview or to cue up the tape during capture setup, but turn off playback before you start capture. Virtualdub has an item in the "Audio" menu that let's you view an audio volume meter at the bottom of the window if you want to check that audio is feeding thru.

Haha, well Sanlyn, generally I tend to not get along with technology and software all that well so I'm always hesitant to say something definitively. You're right though, i DID use Huffyuv!

Well, I'm pretty sure mine are all PAL - so I've been trying to capture at 720x576, and UYVY compression.

I changed my settings from overlay mode to preview mode.

I tried changing the settings to "do not resync" as msgohan suggested.

Sadly the audio is still well out of sync. It starts off great, but by half an hour in it's noticably out of sync. By the end it's probably close to being delayed by 2 seconds.

I'm sure it's pretty hard to say but what do you think the culprit is - Vdub? The VCR? The Elgato? A combination?

It is worth mentioning that when I capture them as crap 640x480 Mpegs with the bundled Elgato software, the audio is in sync throughout. So perhaps I need to try another program as perhaps Vdub just isn't playing nice with my set up.

OK, then something's not set correctly, and as I re-read earlier posts in this thread I'm getting confused myself. So I have a couple of questions:

What capture device are you now using? If I've kept track, you're using a USB capture device ? If using a USB device, you probably have your audio wires plugged into the USB device, right?

In Virtualdub capture, when you click on the "Device" item and the drop-down menu appears, what are the names of the capture devices or drivers shown in that drop down list?

What kind of audio card is installed in your PC?
In the VirtualDub capture top menu, in the "Audio" menu there are two drop-down items. "Audio input" and "Audio source". What audio options are shown in the input and source menus?

Otherwise you can try VirtualVCR, which can be set to capture to lossless huffyuv. Not as advanced as VDub and won't recognize as many capture cards but can use DirectShow cap drivers. But first I'd check the settings requested above.

Yeah, I am using a USB capture device currently - the "Elgato Video Capture". Correct, I have a Scart > RCA adapter in the back of my VCR and the red, white and yellow audio and video cables are all going directly into the Elgato device.

When I click Devices in VDub I get the following 4 options:
0. Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win 32) (VFW)
1. Elgato Video Capture (DirectShow)
2. Screen Capture
3. Video file (Emulation)

I don't have a dedicated sound card sadly. I built this PC a few years back when I thought the on-board audio of my Motherboard would suffice (and it does for most of my needs!). In the Audio menu, there are two options:
0. Capture device
1. Analog Audio In (Elgato Video Capture)

Oddly enough, I get a blank screen with no audio or video preview if I select "analog audio in".

In the Audio input menu there is nothing to select, and the Audio source menu there is the choice of "No source" or "Audio Line". That's it.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will look into VirtualVCR tomorrow but I really wish I could get VDub working as it seems great otherwise. For what it's worth I'm using Windows 7 and recording onto a 2tb hard drive separate from the one my OS is installed on.

OK, those choices look about right for Elgato Video Capture Direct Show drivers. The odd one is analog audio-in that won't let you couple to the Elgato's audio input -- but, then, one could say that "Capture device" means the same thing, it's just odd to see it worded that way.

I can say that there are a ton of complaints using Elgato devices with software other than Elgato's own. The question now becomes, would a simple old-line program like VirtualVCR recognize the Elgato? It should, though I've never seen the Elgato tested here with lossless capture software, and its own software isn't designed for lossless. I believe msgohan has posted some tests elsewhere using a ton of other capture cards. He might have seen a workaround that avoid complaints with Elgato USB.

I don't see that you're not using an external frame-level tbc. Correct me on that if I missed something again. Sometimes recent threads that diverge from the original capture guides are starting to look alike.
:unsure:

Anyway, at least VirtualVCR is free.

Oh I'm sure they do, you're a damn saint for trying to help all of us clueless idiots.

No TBC to be seen here. I did just buy a JVC HR-DVS2U which has an inbuilt TBC allegedly, won't arrive for a while though. What confuses me is how the lossy Elgato captures are so perfectly in sync, which makes me question whether it's a hardware problem at all? Or is it perhaps that the Elgato device just can't handle the lossless capture as it's not designed for that.

I just tried VirtualVCR, sadly it looks incompatible - I can get video but no audio as the only audio option is the "Analog Audio In (Elgato Video Capture)", which you would assume would work, but it is the same option in VDub that gives me a blank preview.

Very frustrating - the Elgato captures with its own software are passable, but now I've had a taste of the better quality captures they just don't do it for me. Unfortunately it's proving to be a bit of a headache now and I really don't know what there is left to try... Could it be some audio sampling rate issue?

I'm just about ready to trade in the Elgato and get something a bit more widely recommended for lossless capture.

Just to update: Still no dice with the audio sync.

Got a new VCR yesterday, a JVC HR-DVS2U (this thing is gigantic, holy crap) and while it's a massive upgrade over the standard charity shop LG VCR I found, it hasn't done anything to help the audio sync.

In fact, I'm pretty sure it was even more out of sync from my latest test. Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but this is a 3 hour tape, so I've just set the stop conditions to stop recording after 3 hours - I can't imagine that would affect sync or anything, but might as well mention it.

I wasn't expecting the new VCR to fix it to be honest, as I'm fairly certain the Elgato is the issue here given how I can capture perfectly in sync with the Elgato software.

Regardless, it's an awesome upgrade - I don't think the mini DV side works unfortunately, as I have a few of those tapes to digitise too, but it's got S-video out (marginal upgrade, but I'll take it) and I'm loving the fast forward dial, where you can scrub through frame by frame, and even record while it's fast forwarding (useful for glitchy goodness). Just need to find a remote for it...

Anyway, I'll keep trying.

Since other members haven't chipped in here, other than msgohan who has tested a bunch of capture cards, I can add some more info. The most often suggested remedy for bad audio sync, which can happen with even the best VCR trying to play old tapes, is an external frame-level tbc. Many neglect that item with a variety of cards, and end up bad mouthing VirtualDub and other capture software. Fact is, except for the F5/F6 incident I mentioned, I've never had audio sync problems. But I'm using AIW's and a Diamond VC500 in XP machines with a frame tbc and have tested others.

I do know that Elgato is a Mac-oriented outfit and, as one post I saw has put it, Elgato doesn't know Windows that well. Add to that the Elgato posts I've seen (some which had audio sync problems with lossless capture) the caps looked noisy and somewhat oversharpened -- which of course sharpens noise. That's just my impression. Caps that didn't have sync problems used an external frame sync of some kind, either a full-fledged frame tbc or one of a few pass-thru devices for their frame timing ability. But an external tbc is preferred over a pass-thru device like a Panasonic DMR ES10/ES15 used for pass-thru, which isn't a very "complete" frame tbc. Also, Win7 is another factor that seems to call for a frame tbc.

MediaInfoXP is a simple GUI that displays video properties in text list format. The program is 100% self-contained, no DLL requirements, no installer. no adware. It also works in Windows7. You'll find it very useful.

Create a folder or subfolder in your PC and name it "MediaInfoXP". Into that folder, download the attached .zip MediaInfo-GUI.2016-05-21.zip, attached because the download area of their otherwise nice website is confusing. Unzip that file inside the MediaInfoXP folder. After unzipping, you'll see several files. Double-click on MediaInfoXP.exe to run it. The dialog window will have no data. The window's top menu bar has only 2 menu items. Click on the "Application..." menu item, then click on "Preferences...", then select "Enable the Shell Integration". Close the menu, then close the MediaInfoXP program.

MediaInfo's Windows Shell Integration is now enabled. When you right-click on one of your AVi captures, you'll see a context popup menu of options. Near the top of the Windows popup menu click on "Analyze file with MediaInfoXP". MediaInfoXP will open, and in a few seconds the video's properties will appear in the window. The window can be resized. You can select the contents with a mouse and copy the text contents to the Windows clipboard. Or you can right-click anywhere in the app's window and get a menu of output options, such as saving as a .txt file or copying the contents to the clipboard.

Paste the text in its entirety into a post, or attach the .txt file that you get from MediaInfoXP. We'll take a look for any clues about the audio. That little MediaInfo app is also good for getting some insight into what's inside video files.

In the meantime I played around today with a terrible, noisy tape from 1991 that I captured with an All In Wonder with OK sync years ago. This goes so far back, I was surprised to find this this old tape still in storage.

Today, with the AIW's, two PC's and two VCR's I had no problem. So I decided to try a couple of USB cards. I was surprised as all heck to find USB sync wasn't so great on one of the PC's -- no drifting, just not in-sync by about 400ms during a short 2-minute capture. After deciding that the timestamps from the USB card might be the problem, I played with Timing Options and two USB cards, I ended up with perfect sync from start to end. It worked with my external tbc and worked with the tbc disconnected as well. So you might want to try these settings, customized for the USB cards:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1467737481

Every card and system setup is different, and so are tapes (especially noisy ones recorded to cheap tape with bad cable signals!!). The above settings worked with one PC but had no effect on the other. Go figure.

Absolute legend - I will try all of this and report back later!

I've gotta say, in a strange turn of events since my last post, I'm now an owner of a DataVideo TBC-1000. Think I might need some more cables before I can use it however. I was searching for a TBC and it popped up on eBay as an auction pretty much right as I searched. Shot him a message and he offered me £25 for it - turns out he was only 20 minutes drive away, so I just got back it with it now. Incredibly nice guy - he even had a USB Pinnacle Dazzle HD thingy and a Canopus ADVC-55 which he said I could come back and buy if my Elgato proves to be rubbish even with the TBC-1000.

Edit: I'll try your suggestions without the TBC first, for the sake of science!

Congrats on the tbc-1000.

Pinnacle Dazzle HD = worse than Elgato.
I think you know from many posts here that Canopus/DV is a poor choice for analog capture.
They would put you back where you started. Why spend on these when a recommended USB card is so inexpensive?
I'd give the Elgato another try. If no go, it's easier to get any of several recommended cards.

Oh really. I thought the Canopus cards were decent? I've just seen them being name dropped in a lot of the threads I've seen. I can see now that DV is not what I'm looking for.

I've read the guide on capture cards, very informative but there was no obvious recommendations for specific capture cards that I could see. What's the general consensus on decent inexpensive capture cards then, and I'll see if I can hunt one down. I've seen that Lordsmurf uses the ATI 600 but they look incredibly hard to find over here. What do you use? And what other recommended options are there?

Will definitely give the Elgato a chance though - it's recording right now, should be able to check the audio sync in an hour or so, and then test with the TBC over night. If I can get reliable captures with synced audio with the Elgato, I'll be satisfied.

Edit: Also, I've currently only got one S-Video cable - when I use the TBC will it matter at all that it'll be S-Video from the VCR to TBC but RCA cables from the TBC to the capture card?

I uswe:
ATI All In Wonder 7500 AGP Radeon (XP only)
ATI All In Wonder 9600xt AGP Radeon (XP only)
ATI 600 USB (XP)
Diamond VC500 USB 2 (XP, W7).
UK Source: Diamond Multimedia VC500 USB 2 (Win98/2K/XP/Vista/7/8). https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diamond-Mul...+VC500+USB+2.0

Other from the recommended alternatives list:
Hauppauge 610 USB2 (Win 7? Not sure). UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hauppauge-0.../dp/B003Q2ZA36

Composite, never. S-video all the way.

Good news! Audio is now perfectly in sync when I used the TBC! Really didn't think it would work - pretty sure this unassuming little box is pure black magic. Just tested it with composite cables all the way as I need to go buy a second S-video. Pretty sure my timing settings were still set as they were with 'do not resync' selected and what not.

For the record, I tried it without the TBC one last time with the above settings and it was still out of sync. I don't know why it's seemingly impossible to get it synced without a TBC when capturing lossless with this device. I need to look into exactly what the TBC does as I'm really curious how it managed to sort it.

So happy - thanks for your help man. Now I just need to look into deinterlacing and compression as I've got a few dozen tapes to capture and this 3 hour one I've been testing with is about 90GB in lossless avi. At this rate they wouldn't even all fit on a brand new 2TB hard drive, so quality sacrifices must be made!

Good work. That 90GB file size seems a little on the large side for 3 hours of standard definition hufffyuv, but a noisy tape could easily take up extra data bits and take up more room as AVI. Obviously it will be smaller after post processing.

Most people keep original captures on external hard drives and pull off sections of video during editing. A few lossless captures get archived as-is (for the really important stuff), others are discarded at end of project, still others are archived as broadcast-high-bitrate MPEG or some other low-loss compression.

I am concerned however, about your comment. Why are you deinterlacing? Do you deinterlace all of your retail DVD's and all of the broadcast TV programs that you watch? What format will you use to compress your deinterlaced videos (it won't be DVD or SD BluRay -- those are interlaced formats). Are your VHS tapes movie-based or made from film-based TV programs (they aren't interlaced, they're telecined. Deinterlacing will ruin them). Are they movie or TV shows that are NTSC to PAL conversions (they often use field blending and other production techniques, so deinterlacing won't work). If they're animations, they're created as progressive frames and brought up to playing speed using duplicate framing or pulldown techniques, and can't be deinterlaced.

Deinterlacing video that is originally interlaced has a quality cost. When it's done it's for a good reason and uses specialized software for it.

Ah I see. I thought you needed to 'decomb' or 'deinterlace' these files if they're going to be played back primarily on computer screens. I was thinking that because the tapes look so smooth with the refresh rate on the CRT and I'd like to simulate that in the digital files. So far they're all just home movies, from VHS-C, no TV or film yet. Anyway, it's not that they look bad as they are, I'd just like them as smooth as possible. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Also yeah 90GB was incorrect, it's about 75GB. The TBC rip is 75GB and the non TBC one is 70GB. Eventually I want to edit in Final Cut or a similar program - I don't think my computer could handle working with raw files that big. It would be nice to keep the lossless captures but it's not totally essential depending on how the compressed files turn out.

Also... my bloody VCR has already got a tape stuck in it that won't eject. What a pain... think I'm going to have to open it up and operate.

Edit: Double post - DELETE!!!

PC media players deinterlace on the fly the same way your TV does. With VLC Player you have set deinterlacing in the Tools option menu. Windows Media Player doesn't deinterlace as well as some others. Excessive combing is often a problem with video from consumer cameras but that can be fixed in post processing. There are specific filters for such problems that won't damage your video.

Yes, that's closer to "normal", LOL!

If your PC can run Final Cut, it can handle the files. What you would use most of the time to repair VHS defects would be a restoration and repair app, not an editor. Final Cut is an editor. The forum's capture guide and hundreds of threads deal with restoration projects.

You don't have to keep them. The original capture is the source for lossless intermediate working files, which are seldom retained.

Yes, and be careful. I've had that problem myself, darn it.

Likely your new player has much better playback than average. But VHS still has many defects. High end VCRs can't get all of them, such as invalid luma levels, clipped blacks or blown out highlights, uneven borders, head switching noise, and whatnot (processing in the player would take forever to play your tapes!). I recently posted a few samples of cleanup using one seriously horrible tape from a bad cable signal, and a low-quality retail VHS movie transfer. There are before/after samples posted. Notes in that post reveal some of the early mistakes I made with those captures several years ago. Lossless/rstoration demos. Surprised you haven't caught some of these threads.

I was under the impression you were working with VHS. While VHS-C home video is similar, it has its own problems. Capture is only the first step. If you want CRT smooth, now that you're in the digital domain, you have to do at least some nominal repair. If you're doubtful about the reasons for it, you can post a short piece of unprocessed lossless capture for evaluation. If you don't know how to make an unprocessed short edit, just ask.

If you wouldn't mind briefly explaining how to make an short unprocessed edit, that'd be awesome. I was actually wondering how to do that the other day. Also I'd love to know how trim the end off a lossless file without interfering with the compression at all. And yeah it'd be lovely to get your opinion on a short sample.

I'll have a look at your restorations - sounds interesting and definitely something I'll look into in the future. For now I'm just going to focus on capturing everything, and compression (I'll have a search around for info on that or create a new thread as it's still a bit of a mystery to me - much like everything else). There's a certain charm to the defects and nuances of tape though that I can't help but love, so I'm not sure I'd want to try to eradicate all of those kind of things. Colours, levels and borders is definitely something I'll investigate over the next few weeks though. In all honesty repairing and post process hadn't actually crossed my mind.

And I guess I won't really need to compress these home videos, especially as the VHS-C ones are all under 45 minutes anyway. They're fine as they are really. I'm looking into compression as I've got some film/music video projects I want to get started on - I've got hundreds of old obscure tv records and kids tapes that I'd like to use as source material, digitise them and splice them together in Final Cut (hence why I mentioned it, wasn't planning to repair them in FC). It just doesn't seem feasible to me to work with lossless files when I'll be using so many sources in one project. But perhaps I'm being silly.

Also yeah you were right to assume I was working with VHS, I did all my tests with a 3 hour BBC 'Review of the Year' tape from 1989 (when I was born!) once I knew the audio could stay synced for an entire 3 hours then I'd be happy to digitise all the VHS-C home recordings. Turns out the new VCR really doesn't like my VHS-C adapter cassette thingy, the old one ejected it no problem. Was pretty nerve-wracking getting it out again, but it's all good now, the tape wasn't chewed up or anything. Though I'm a bit terrified to try another one as I think it'll do the same again. Hard to explain how it got stuck in there, but it looks like it'd probably happen every time.

An unprocessed YUY2 cut of 8 seconds is 200 PAL frames, which should be sufficient if it contains motion (preferably someone moving left to right, gesturing, etc.). Avoid really spastic camera motion, which is mostly blur.

Open a huffyuv video in VirtualDub and scroll to a section of video that you want to use as a sample. Using the navigation icons in the lower left of the VirtualDub window, click the "start Selection" key to mark the starting frame. To navigate to the end of your selection, use the ">" frame advance key. Then click the "End Selection" icon to mark the end of the selection. When your selection is made, in VDub's top menu click "Edit..." -> "Crop Selection".

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1467845851

The last steps are important. In the VDub top menu, click "Video..." -> then click "direct stream copy". Finally, click "File..." -> "Save AVI...", and give the sample a name and location.

To trim off the end of a file, move to the frame that starts the section you want to delete, and mark that frame with the "Start" selection icon. Then click the "end of File" navigation key (">|"), and mark the end of the file by clicking the "End" selection" icon. Then click "Edit..." -> "Delete". This will trim off the unwanted tail end of a file.

To trim off the beginning of a file, scroll to the last frame at the end of the section you want to delete. Mark that frame by clicking the "End" selection icon -- note that the indicated selection now includes all frames from the beginning of the file to the frame you just marked as "End". Then click "Edit..." -> " Delete". This will trim off the unwanted front part of the file.

That's a little confusing, LOL! You love the charming defects but you want CRT smooth? Of course there's a big difference between basic cleanup and the futile quest for perfection. However, if you want to improve colour, levels, and borders, you hve to do that in lossless format. Fixing those details with lossy final compression formats will be shooting your projects in both feet from the outset and wasting your effort at getting a good lossless capture.

You can compress them to high bitrate codecs and archive the originals you want to keep. Or anything you want, but why keep a multitude of 10 and 20GB short videos all over the place? Final encoding is the easy part. Not to worry, it will all come along soon enough.

FWIW I'm using this with a Windows 10 laptop to do my captures.

Haha I know man... I confuse myself sometimes. I guess it boils down to wanting the best possible quality I can achieve for the old family home recordings... but for all the other VHS media I have (vintage tv recordings, kids films, general curious items) I'd absolutely welcome any artifacting and distortions that VHS has a tendency for. Ultimately, because I'm a contrived hipster!

I have a box of over 150 regular VHS tapes with all sorts of things on that I'd like to sort through, and digitise (at least temporarily to see if they're worthwhile) so I'm going to have to sacrifice some quality for the sake of efficiency and just plain hard disk space. I'd still love to capture them at 25fps 720x576 but I'd only have room for 6 or 7 if they all end up 70+ GB. So I either need to look into capturing at a lower quality, or look into a way to quickly compress them after a lossless capture. Hopefully that clears things up a bit. Kind of itching to get started on that project but I'll get all the home movies done first.

And thanks for your short tutorial on extracting a short clip and trimming the ends. Super helpful as always. Sadly a bit too busy until Saturday afternoon to work on it, but I'll be able to get a clip up on the weekend. Then I'll have a go at doing some clean up, corrections and reparations. Looking forward to it!

I started with over 300 VHS tapes. Obviously I'd be in my grave befiore I could make pristine digital archives of every one. Many were replaced with DVD releases. Many were decent tapes that I recorded directly to MPEG/DVD with a Dvd recorder equipped with the excellent LSI chip. Many out of print movies were broadcast later over digital TV and recorded to DVD or to a PC with a high definition PVR. Many were noisy recordings with an old cheap VCR but were cleaned up satisfactorily with some simple filtering (the "good enough" school of output quality). Some were so horrible and consequential, they were discarded.

But as you say, some of mine are irreplaceable favorites: live TV broadcasts of Pearl Harbor and D-Day memorials, many hours of live TV coverage of 9/11 and the Katrina disaster, some excellent old films that will never see DVD, and some priceless home videos. These were subjects for repair and restoration. Ultimate quality is of course a personal preference, but getting there requires an understanding of video properties and proper processing. One can read about that stuff forever, but it all remains mysterious until one is engaged in actual use. Without some basic insight, many users attain average, below-average, and even terrible results, a far cry from "highest possible quality". Fortunately for most of us, getting decent quality isn't rocket science, and most of the tools are free. But we do have to know how to look into a video's innards and work with it.

I don't keep captures on my active hard drives. They are transferred and stored on external USB hard drives after capture. Unlike external drives used only as storage and backup, continuously active drives are subject to the usual stresses of daily use. If a blip occurs, the captures could be damaged or lost. More experienced users understand very well the maxim that computers are for processing, not for permanent storage.

For tapes that don't require a lot of cleanup, you can encode directly to MPEG/DVD or higher bitrate standard definition BluRay with a good encoder and authoring program, most of which can make better encoded videos than many capture cards. But encoding is the last step. Better to first get a handle on video properties and avoid disappointment.