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03-11-2018, 04:12 AM
mattiasht mattiasht is offline
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Hello!

I'm in need of a proper TBC to put between my VCR and Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle and I found one guy selling DataVideo SE-500 analog videomixer which has Dual channel TBC 4:2:2 Frame Synchroniser. http://www.datavideo.com/product/SE-500

Does this do it's job and is it suitable for this kind of thing? Maybe somebody has experience with the same device. It should do it but I want to be sure before buying it. Price for used one is 200, which seems fair for TBC.

Thanks!
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  #2  
03-11-2018, 06:05 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: I've used the similar Videonics MX-1 and MX-Pro and they have worked OK for me. However, I can't speak to the DataVideo. Interesting that the manual has a Jan 2018 date in it.
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  #3  
03-11-2018, 06:41 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Unsure. I've always read about mixers not being true TBCs, or at least inferior ones. Remember, "TBC" is a loose term, and can mean almost anything. Many mixers (especially the Videotronics NX-1) were known to create tearing, flashing aka signal dropouts, and output signal that would actually cause dropped frames (vs. having it removed from the workflow). It was consistent negative reports that always kept me away from them.

So, for now, consider these unconfirmed reports. But still, the users were knowledgeable about video. Not your average non-video newbie.

dpalomaki, "OK" makes it sounds passable, problematic.
- Exactly how OK was your experience?
- And what sorts of sources was it used for?

^ I'm curious, I'd like to know more.

I believe the SE-500 was a latter-era item (TBC-5000 timeframe, post 100/1000/3000/4000/7000), but it should have been discontinued some years ago. The Jan 2018 date is indeed odd. (Noting that I didn't see that.) Note that TBC-5000 also seems to expect non-VHS sources, and I confirmed this by calling DataVideo last year. It's not the same as the 100/1000/3000/4000/7000 lineage.

From what I've gathered, mixer "TBCs" act a lot like the Extron units, which fail miserably. (In fact, Extron is often praised as "more stable" -- which it most assuredly is NOT!)

I've investigated pretty much every avenue of "TBC but not TBC" in recent years, and all failed my tests. In fact, most rack-mount TBCs equally fail, as those are not expecting consumer analog sources (VHS, Hi8/Video8, Betamax, even S-VHS).

Also, a goal of a TBC should be transparency. All TBCs have some degree of processing noise, but mixers seem to add more than normal.

I'd love to test these mixers, to verify reports, but $50/device is my testing (gambling!) limit.

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  #4  
03-11-2018, 08:29 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
dpalomaki, "OK" makes it sounds passable, problematic.
- Exactly how OK was your experience?
- And what sorts of sources was it used for?
It has been a few years. Sources were mainly a variety of S-/VHS tapes and 8mm/Hi8 tapes, mostly camcorder originals, some VCR home recordings, and some commercial tapes, played mainly in an AG-1980, AG-1970, Sony EV-S7000 and Canon L2.

By OK I mean in the majority of cases the result was stable video signal to the capture device, often with improved stability. However, in some cases it was not as good as without it, and also in some cases there was an undesirable interaction with the AG's internal TBC. As with all analog, a lot depended on the specific tape in hand, and most of the tapes i dealt with were in decent condition On a plus it was effective in resolving mitigating artifacts.

I do not recall specific issues with dropped frames, and my goal at the time was a stable, viewable capture, not restoration. I also use the MX-1 extensively for editing/mixing analog source material to S-VHS and later DVC tape for duplication. In that regard it worked well for my purposes. I bought the MX-1 and later the MX-Pro for the mixer capability, not for use as a TBC. The frame synchronizer provides a degree of TBC benefit. Would I buy one today for use a TBC only, probably no, unless the price was really right.

A few users reported issues with the MX-1 overheating, perhaps due to their local environment, and that may have resulted in artifacts. It was a period piece for the days of SD analog and rendered moot by NLE. But still handyeven today perhaps for live switching low budget SD sources at events such as church services.

Last edited by dpalomaki; 03-11-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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  #5  
03-27-2018, 01:54 AM
mattiasht mattiasht is offline
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Thanks for your answers dpalomaki and lordsmurf!

In the end I bought myself Videonics MXPro (MX-3000) mixer for 80 which has built in TBC but as I've been explained, TBC is a loosest term ever. I thought that I can test it and resell it without a big loss. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/23...ics-Mxpro.html

What are the results? Pretty much the same as dpalomaki had - it stabilizes the signal and gives better results when talking about audio/video sync issues but the issues are still there. When talking about video quality, I can't tell much of a difference.

My main quest is to get rid of the out of sync audio and it didn't fix that. With each dropped frame the audio will get more out of sync basically, without the mixer those margins were just bigger and there were more dropped frames. Tape is from 1988 soviet-era Estonia and it's edited as well, so pretty hefty task. I have lots .

My question is: If we take for example AVT-8710 (green one, fully functional) or TBC-100/1000 and use it for the same tape, is my audio and video in sync after 2 hours of capturing? I'm beginning to think that even those good TBC's won't do that and my only chance is to capture from dropped frame to dropped frame. I guess I just have to put in a lot of manual work .

It probably is better with newer tapes and camcorder originals. But still, would want to get good quality from those old ones. Almost nobody had camcorders in Estonia late 80's and early 90's, there's some historical content and valuable material to be digitized.
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  #6  
03-27-2018, 04:15 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Dropped frames and sound sync issues?

In general, the Black Magic capture devices do have a reputation for dropping frames if the signal is not near perfect, although some of the newer models may be a bit less touchy on this. Also, I've read of some issues with audio sync when using the BM Shuttle, but have not followed up on them to see if/how they resolved.

Is the sound leading or lagging the video as time goes by?
Are there glitches in the video or crash edits/inserts that cause a discontinuous video signal from the tape.
Are there breaks/gaps in the audio or video waveform? (You can see them in the waveform if you have the appropriate editing tools.)

I've seen some cases where sound sync drifted dues to capture problems that resulted in gaps in the audio waveform, probably due to the system not having the speed to keep up with the data stream. This can be an issue if using shared USB ports as well.

What is the system you are using to capture the video; i.e., processor, OS, drives (capture and OS), and capture software? To what type of files are you capturing? Are you capturing both audio and video with the BM Shuttle?
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  #7  
03-27-2018, 11:07 AM
mattiasht mattiasht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Dropped frames and sound sync issues?

Is the sound leading or lagging the video as time goes by?
Are there glitches in the video or crash edits/inserts that cause a discontinuous video signal from the tape.
Are there breaks/gaps in the audio or video waveform? (You can see them in the waveform if you have the appropriate editing tools.)

What is the system you are using to capture the video; i.e., processor, OS, drives (capture and OS), and capture software? To what type of files are you capturing? Are you capturing both audio and video with the BM Shuttle?
Yeah, dropped frames, video just blinks with black on certain places. Sometimes there are multiple dropped frames following each other (inbetween captured frames), sometimes only one.

Audio is leading.

There are no specific glitch parts or edit/inserts, it happens somewhat randomly.

Have to come back with the info about gaps in audio/video waveform.

System: Intel i5 3.33GHz, 8GB RAM, 2GB GPU, SSD, Etron EJ168 USB 3.0 PCIe card
Capture setup: LG RC388 VCR > Videonics MxPro > BM Intensity Shuttle > USB 3.0 PCIe card, for video using Y/C (S-Video)
Windows 7 64bit, Blackmagic Media Express v3.5 - it's older vesion because newer versions didn't recognize the Intensity Shuttle. Maybe there are some better capture software that would work with Intensity Shuttle.

Capturing file format: 8-bit YUV AVI PAL - there are not much to choose from and the software is very erratic when making changes, crashes all the time.

Yes, capturing both, audio and video with BM Shuttle.

Yeah, maybe is the issue in BM Intensity Shuttle, as it needs near perfect signal. Then would probably need to get more robust capture device/card, which can handle the signal I have.
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  #8  
03-27-2018, 11:51 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Virtualdub works with the BM intensity shuttle, it can be a bit clunky though. It's possible that it would deal with audio sync better.

Also be aware that BM express captures 24-bit (rather than 16-bit) audio, which can freak out some software.

I've used the BM intensity shuttle with the black (crap) AVT-8710, and I didn't get the dropped (black) frames from VHS captures. Though I believe it had issues with the Hi8 vcrs we got even with the TBC. (Of course the AVT has it's issues but that's another story..) WIth no TBC it drops frames left right and center.

One option for capture since you already have the shuttle is to look for a (decent) used DVD-recorder that outputs HDMI, (unless you are dealing with macrovision stuff) which you can then capture with the shuttle. I believe Goldwingfahrer here on the forums uses such a setup for some stuff.
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  #9  
03-27-2018, 03:27 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: the uncompressed SD PAL YUV 4:2:2 8-bit AVI produced by Media Express (3.5.4 version) has a data rate of about 170 mbps. By comparison DV is 25 mbps. Depending on what else is going on in your system at the same time it may be difficult to sustain that data rate continuously over USB and/or if capturing to the system drive and not a dedicated video drive.

As a test try capture to Motion JPEG if that option is available to you. This should result in a substantially lower data rate and if it is free of dropped frames and sync issues that would indicate your system as configured cannot keep up with the data rate of the uncompressed YUV.
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  #10  
03-27-2018, 03:43 PM
mattiasht mattiasht is offline
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Thanks for answers!

I tried Virtualdub and after an hour of fiddlying around with options I got decent results. No audio/video sync issues for hour of capture, have to try longer period but so far so good. Why I didn't try it earlier , BM Express had problems from the start.
Will try more with different options, at the moment there are a bit too much horizontal noise/zigzagging on the edges of moving objects., maybe can reduce that somehow and then I'm almost there .
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  #11  
03-27-2018, 05:39 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Capturing problems are rarely an issue with A, or B, or C, etc -- but rather rather A+B+C+etc

It's never one thing, it's often multiples. That's why this can be tricky to pin down. You have to do some fairly complex troubleshooting, to see what hardware/software is behaving. And the worse or lacking the hardware, the harder it is to trace.

So you need:
- good VCR/camera for playback, usually with internal line TBC
- external framesync TBC
- known-good quality capture card
- computer hardware/software that has adequate specs for the task, namely HDD/SSD speed (I/O) and CPU

Blackmagic cards don't meet the expectation of "known good", and are in fact pretty well-known as terrible at SD.

USB usually does not meet I/O requirements for non-lossless/MPEG capturing. (Noting that most are lousy at MPEG.)

And that's where you are.

Get the playback hardware in order. And the capture card and computer. Then you'll be in business.

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