AVT-8710 alternatives, wavy distortions, color bars?
Hey all. So I've been trying to get into this VHS to Digital to get some old home movies converted over to files. As I have been doing research, and as I have witnessed, I need a TBC as I am getting some wavy distortion in the video when converted (like when someone is walking in the video with the camera, or quick pans, etc).
I've read all over the forums about the AVT-8710 and all of it's flaw. And I read that the truly good versions of that was the green box. So I bought one at https://www.hdtvsupply.com/tibaco1.html. Or so I thought I was getting the green one. I opened the box and it was the black one that everyone has been saying isn't any good. Out of curiosity, I plugged it in to see if it would work. After checking the wires and the VCR, and checking the video capture (ELGATO), all I was getting was color bars on the output. I read that if the signal isn't strong enough that it might do that. So I tried it on another VCR and a DVD player -- still color bars. So my questions to the forum: 1) Is there anything else I can try to not get color bars only before I send this thing back? 2) Since the DataVideo TBC-1000 has been discontinued, what else can I use that won't TOTALLY break the bank? 3) Is there a PCI card that has TBC built in already. A friend use to capture video from video tape back in the day and I don't remember him ever having to deal with this :/ PS. I am trying to also convert video from a 8MM Camcorder. So I am plugging it into the Elgato. This is where I REALLY need the TBC help. Camcorder doesn't have anything. Neither does the JVC VHS player I am using. Thanks for the help. I need it desperately :) |
What kind of "wavy distortion"? Sounds like you need a line tbc, not a frame tbc.
Find a used Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15, use it as a pass=-thru device and get both tbc's in one. Will not prevent disturbances from copy protection, however. The ES10 or ES15 are the most effective pass-thru devices we know of. Elgato? Maybe when you know more about video you'll get rid of that one. |
Thanks for the info, Sanlyn. I'm really kinda new to all of this so I have been educating myself. It's been a LONG time since I've done any kind of video capturing.
I've also got the Diamond VC500. I purchased both to see if one of those would affect the issue I am having. I don't need all the bells and whistles of that software as I have the Adobe CC suite and import all of my video into Premiere Pro. Any suggestions for a capture card? I'm totally open to anything (and I can still send back the Elgato Video Capture) |
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But whatever you think works for you. |
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I am not familiar with avt (even though i always wanted one) but for my education would it send color bars with a supposedly "weak signal" ?? |
Welcome. :)
I hate "please help" thread titles, so I've changed it to be more descriptive to the topic. ;) Quote:
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Top-screen only is tearing. All over image is timing errors for line TBCs. Quote:
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Also keep in mind that I have gear available in the marketplace forum, and you can always PM me about it. I need to update those posts soon, remove some gear (sold), add others (finally ready to sell). Quote:
Note that a couple of cards market this, but in-depth research has shown it to be nonsense. It's because "TBC" is a wide term, with too many interpretations. As I wrote elsewhere on the site, some companies stretch it so far that it seems as if my toaster might have a TBC. Quote:
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The are many TBC types, but the most important for us is the line TBC and the external framesync TBC. Line is found in high-end S-VHS VCRs, while framesync is external units. Line mostly cleans the image, and external mostly cleans the signal. So AVT-8710 won't clean up wavy distortion, but it does prevent dropped frames and other artifacts. So you need both. The ES10 isn't really a TBC, but is closest to line in behavior. It still allows image corruptions to happen, because it was crippled to appease Macrovision. And since Macrovision/anti-copy is nothing more than an artificial video error, real video errors can be mistaken for the fake ones. ES10 also has other NR side effects, making it not transparent like true TBCs. Best use for tearing only. However, it can be a compromise piece, though you need to know the drawbacks. Quote:
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In terms of always wanting one, what are you most curious about? :) |
Wavy Distortion, Example Video
Hello All -
First off, my apologies for the delayed response. I was working on this project earlier in the year and just got too busy to get back to this discussion. I am still looking for some help in getting this issue cleaned up that I am getting. @Lordsmurf - I did return the AVT-8710 earlier in the year and got my money back. OK so I wanted to send you all a sample video of what I am getting. This is a capture from a Sony Handycam 8MM (sorry dont have the exact model, but its from the 90's/early 2000's.) I am capturing using the Diamond VC500. The video was taken with the camera attached to an RC car (excuse the video, it was from a homemade video from when I was a kid). As you will see, I am getting a bunch of distortion when the camera is in motion. Likewise, I am getting this same distortion from home videos where the person taking the video is walking or moving. Any way to clean this up? Do I need a TBC of some sort? What do you suggest? BTW - sending videos in to have them converted is not an option. I have way too many tapes from my family to convert if I can get this issue solved. And some of my old tapes from High School --- well I'm not sure I want anyone else to see those! LOL. Thanks! (Trying to add the file for review, but work connection time out the upload. Will have to upload from home) |
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You may be running into that, and it also gives a "timeout" error. |
Wavy Distortion Continued
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I think I had both going on. The file size was large and work was blocking it.
Here is the file for you to look at LordSmurf. The VCR I have is a JVC HR-A62U. I'm pretty certain this player does not have TBC as I have look over the menu :( BTW -- thank you for your help. You look to be the video GURU of the site. I have really found this site super helpful. So if this is your site, thank you! And to you and everyone who runs it, thank you! Lastly -- if you do think this is a TBC issue, I'd be interested in getting one of those TBC you have (if you have any left). I'm wanting to get all of my family's tapes converted in the next year so my Dad can watch them. He just started treatment for Leukemia and it's unclear how much time he's got left (might be 5 years, might be 3, might be 7 -- depends on how the chemo reacts). So this would be an amazing thing to have done this year so he can look back at all of the memories. Much Appreciation! |
And just to confirm, it doesn't do this when viewed through the camcorder itself, or the camera plugged into TV, just when trying to capture on the computer?
(Note: Don't make the leap in logic that the capture card is at fault, because that's not what I'm getting at.) |
That's correct. When I watch it through the Camcorder, the video plays with no issues. It just seems that the digital conversion process is picking this "movement distortion" up.
Also to add -- i was getting this same distortion when I was using that Elgato capture card as well. (This capture came from the Diamond VC500). The Camcorder is a Handycam Vision CCD-TRV15. |
How are you capturing? It was requested that you use Virtualdub, but your sample has been captured to lossy DV and YV12. Besides compression loss and artifacts, 50% of the chroma data has been lost. DV is not a restoration format. Does your camcorder output DV?
Besides the frame distortion,. it's also obvious that your VCR doesn't have a line-level tbc. You have line-level as well as frame-level distortion, and you're capturing to lossy media. None of those problems would be the fault of the VC500 itself. |
That shakeup in the video looks like something I have seen when capturing directly with the VC500 from a video8 camcorder or deck without any form of TBC, either in camera or external. Video being more unstable when the camera is moving around seems to be common in my experience, especially stuff filmed while driving.
Putting a TBC or certain models of DVD-recorders in between should help. A DVDR like the Panasonic ES10/ES15 like suggested earlier may be nicer in this case it can help more with horizontal wiggling as well, since the camcorder and VCR you're using don't feature a TBC of their own. The VC500 capture card doesn't really care about macrovision in case the DVDR outputs it thinking the source was copy-protected. That is unless you're planning to invest in a new camcorder and vcr. I use the Diamond VC500 with either a Pioneer DVR-440H, or Datavideo TBC-3000 for capturing Video8/Hi8 myself, though with some of the higher-end models of Sony cameras that featured a TBC. The former also stabilizes horizontal jiggly lines quite well if needed, though is a bit more sensitive to really bad tape problems than the Datavideo or the suggested ES10. |
onto which media the camera records to ?
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Copy protection has little to do with anything, and it's all about video errors, timing errors. Copy protection is just fake/artificial errors, but many actual errors still exist. Quote:
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Besides having no tbc of any sort, the sample is not a VirtualDub capture. It's captured to DV using either the VC500's undesirable EZ Grabber software or the equally undesirable Adobe NLE. There's no signal level control and YUV even exceeds y=0-255, which is common with DV capture.
Look like an ES10/ES15 with VirtualDub is the way to go. Or get a player with line tbc and spend for an external frame tbc. |
The OP should shockproof mount the camera in the first place :) because that's the source of the problem, or have a real FPV camera setup, A Handycam isn't made for this kind of torture.
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Eric-Jan -- Yes let me go back in time and tell myself and my family to shockproof mount the camera. LOL! Not really something to think about at the time considering these tapes are from 20 years or more ago :)
Sanlyn -- I have downloaded LordSmurfs VirtualDub and will capture using that. But I can tell you with certainty that I will still get that distortion :) Again it looks fine on the Camera/TV. It's when it gets transferred digitally is when it goes crazy. As for the format, I just did that as a quick example of what I'm getting. I wasn't trying to adjust any settings for optimal video output. Just trying to put something up here to explain what I am seeing. This equipment is hard to come by these days. I'm really surprised someone hasn't made some equipment that can be sold commercially to do this and clean up video nicely. The pay services are nice -- for people who don't have the capability or time to do it themselves. Plus, this is a nice way to rewatch some of these memories as I capture them and edit them together. I guess I want to do it on my own for the fun of it :) LordSmurf -- Do you have a TBC you would be willing to part with to give that a try? And BTW -- because of your excellent advice, I did become a Premium Member. I know it's not much, but wanted to show my appreciation for taking the time to help me with my question. |
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