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Composite if you must. HDMI is a can of worms, don't go there. Quote:
But Win10 is still the main issue. It nukes capture cards, treats them like webcams. Stupid. You're fighting VCRs, (lack of) TBCs, capture hardware, capture software, capture drivers, and OS Any OS updates changes things, you're often screwed. And Win10 loves to update stuff, even if it breaks. The last Win10 update screwed my tablet, had to roll it back. Quote:
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While it may not be the 100% best setup out there, a cut-down variant of it with line/frame tbc designed more towards videotape would be a big upgrade from your average usb dongle, I guess a bit like a cheaper, more user friendly ADV eval board, so interested to see where it leads. I guess a setup for tape capture would have only composite + s-video in and not need the scaling and deinterlacing stuff used for game stuff, so one could maybe use a simpler FPGA setup and hdmi chip. |
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Are there specifics for what the output signal format should be? If we were to contact Mike Chi and say "output hardware should be X, output signal should be Y" what are the answers? Quote:
If the TINK-VHS had ideal output hardware and signal, could it be captured with a modern OS? |
USB? Probably. Really no other choice.
I would not waste time simply having him create another capture card that already exists, and works in x64 Windows (aka, all of the eMPIA-based USB capture cards). I'd be far more interested in something modern that could improve on the ATI AIW aka Theatre 200 chips. MPEG hardware compression to 15-50mbps (Blu-ray and broadcast specs), adding 4:2:2 encoding profile. Potentially also (not instead of MPEG!) interlaced x264 at the "lossless" profile. Possibly even hardware based/assisted FFV1. Don't worry about the line+frame TBC aspect here (again, it's NOT a simple single-chip solution, regardless of Analog Devices marketing, or casual low knowledge on TBCs), and instead focus on quality capturing. If he has interest in quality capture cards like this, by all means have him contact me. Skip HD, skip cheap, niche quality card needed by videotape users. Yes, modern OS sucks. It's bleak. Neither Microsoft nor Apple give a rat's ass about video capture, and Linux programmers don't seem to understand it very well either. Everything is treated as webcam and screen capture these days, which is bad for video. The key for a bullet-proof TINK-VHS, in this anti-capture OS era, would be to create a custom software like ATI MMC. But better than MMC. For starters, MMC did too much (player, images, TV tuner, etc). But MMC's "TV" (capture) would always work (when the card drivers installed properly, using good driver versions, which was the thorn in user's sides), even when VirtualDub failed (in the old days, before VirtualDub 1.8.x and better 1.9.x). Most people don't remember how crappy VirtualDub 1.2/3/4/5 (and maybe .6?) were. VirtualDub's capture mode was vastly redone for those final versions (but again, the final 1.10.x version had problems for capture that was never fixed, and continued into FM/2 fork). I have a wish list. Not anything frilly or stupid. And most users don't yet realize they'd need or want the features. It's not even a large list, just some essentials for quality capture, improving on the best we had during the peak of analog videotape capture cards. |
Received a RetroTINK-2X MINI, if anyone has suggestions for how capture from it can be tested.
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I've got a handy dandy dream device in mind, if ideas are still being welcomed.
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We all got dreams but making the dream reality is the hurdle.
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I'd love to get my hands on a Tink-5x, mainly to replace my OSSC, but I'd love to see how it handles VHS, especially when paired with a JVC with a line TBC. From what I've heard it's excellent. If it's really good with that, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a frame TBC alternative. That is, if there was 480i passthrough and if a high quality HDMI to S-Video converter exists out there (which is unlikely). Obviously a dedicated device with analog inputs and outputs would be preferred, but it's a thought. Maybe I'm a bit too ambitious. It's a very powerful device for analog signals, even if it is mainly meant for old game consoles.
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There is new kid in the block, The company in the link below has 3 devices, One composite only for laser disc capture, one Y/C for use with an existing VCR and they have a moded VCR with a board in it for RF capture, They even claimed to have been working on a VCR mechanism that can capture at higher than real time speed:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...alternative%29 |
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I bought a RetroThink 2x Pro, mainly to connect my retro gaming consoles to modern monitors, but just tested it with some VHS material. Waiting on a S-Video cable, so it will be even better.
It puts out a nice picture, coming from my JVC with TBC. -- On a side note: every time I research something VHS capturing related on Google, I end up here. And almost every time the census is "what you are trying or doing is nonsense". First it was BlackMagic being not good enough, now I read the same here about RetroThink. I have owned some of the best (S)VHS recorders back in the 80s and early 90s, and my current JVC is up there too, so I know what a good recording looks like. What I captured recently isn't far off from what is possible, especially considering that today's tapes are all aged and deteriorating. While some around here seem to hunt for the last few percent in image quality, others have long succeeded with their setup. Somebody I know and have talk to a few times on this topic has been capturing VHS tapes for years. Just a week ago or so one of his suggestions was dismissed around here as "idiots on YouTube". Reality is, that he was able to grow a channel to 100k subs, all around captures from the 80s and 90s. I don't see anybody around here having any comparable success. He has no problem using Blackmagic and 17 million views are a testament in itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W37qO4fnjQ |
I did not chek in detail, and the captures from your friend may be the best in the world, but just looking to the first 2 randomly chosen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvbrSjADEv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIq3Xda9Qqc I was not impressed. I can also be that the conditions of the tapes were not good, I don't know. The large success of his video may be related to the content rather than on the quality of the captures/restoration. |
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Vast majority of the quality is determined by the tapes and most tapes from the 80s and 90s have issues. Some around here need to put things into perspective. When I want the highest quality, I place my ass in-front of my 85 inch 4k OLED TV with a dedicated Dolby Atmos 5.2.4 system (no soundbar, no up-firing nonsense, 4 in-ceiling speakers) and watch 4k content from a Blu-ray. |
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And…. there's nothing wrong with BlackMagicDesign equipment. |
Yeah, north american ES45/46 seems to be same as north american ES35 + SD card slot and HDMI out judging by the manual. So, essentially a mid 2000s panasonic VHS hi-fi deck + a dmr-es15/16. So output from that (other than maybe one of the composite outputs) will already have gone via dvd-recorder stabilisation as if hooking a vcr to a ES15 and will be stable for any device to capture.
If he had used one of the newer north american panasonic dvd-recorder/vcr combos it would probably have looked worse given that they changed the chipsets in those to some combo of LSI logic system chip + cheap video decoder IC like a TVP5150 which don't have the TBC-like features of the panasonic chips. Hence I'm a bit sceptical of blindly suggesting getting a vhs/dvd-recorder combo with HDMI out as not all are as nice as the early panasonic ones in this regard. My Personal opinion/2 cents: IMO Using a blackmagic device in this manner is totally fine, though maybe a bit overkill if the setup is pure used for vhs capture and one could go for something a bit more budget friendly than what he has if one doesn't use e.g SDI/HDMI capture for other stuff too. As long as the capture device/pc interface is of somewhat ok quality (i.e not a $10 chinese easycrap clone) and gives you lossless direct output (not deinterlaced and/or compressed or whatever), the quality difference between devices decoding a s-video signal from a tbc or dvd-recorder is going to be very small. The choice is as much up to what fits into one's existing setup, and that the drivers etc work fine, so if they already had SDI capture set up for something else that part is probs fine. The hard job, and where the larger difference is is always gonna be for the quality of the output is the device that receives the messy/unstable output from the VCR and turns it into whatever you are ingesting, whether it's a TBC, dvd-recorder or something else, as it's not something that can be fixed later in the chain. Very few capture deal with that particular well on their own as we've discussed countless times. In this regard that youtuber is fine given the panasonic. As for the VCR part itself, I think you can get a very good result with a newer mid-range non-SVHS deck provided you have something that can stabilize the output, at least for SP tapes LP and I assume SLP in NTSC land is more variable both due to slower tape speed, narrower track width making precise mechanics more crucial and extra filtering steps. I find the main thing is that many decks tend to overdo the primitive analog noise reduction and/or sharpening by default resulting in washed out details and excessive ringing/haloing. Annoyingly, newer vcrs often lack much options to adjust it, more so on the lower end though it varies, but also a few SVHS decks like the latest panasonic ones sigh. These days it's better to let digital tools do handle the brunt of that in post if possible. As for the original topic: I have read that the non-PRO Retrotink 2X had a tendency to lose sync on instability and as such didn't work all that well for VHS, but maybe the 2X PRO is different. Looks like it might have the same issue though when looking at the linked time in this video while on the 5x side there is no black frames. (Differences in contrast are not all that meaningful either way as long as they don't clip as that can be, and usually has to, be sorted in post.) In that clip the 5x looks maybe a tad less wiggly too, but it's hard to give a good judgement based on that clip due to scaling, deinterlacing , not knowing how it compares to a in-vcr tbc/es10 or similar etc. I haven't seen any "torture testing" of either other than that it at least seemed to handle a vcr switching between playback and trick play without dropping like the 2x, and they don't look excessively wiggly like what you get from some capture cards either. I am curious about the 5x still, like how it reacts to tape issues, copy protection, and what hardware it actually uses. |
The use of HDMI directly from a consumer device like DVD recorder or such will not work for capture most of the time, a passthrough device would be a cheap one, (bad quality?) or a too expensive one, for that job,
component or s-video is always better, my good working setup is now Panasonic ES35V > BMD Analog to SDI > BMD Video Assist, or from the BMD Analog to SDI > BMD Micro Converter SDI to HDMI > BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle HD, so for capture there's no PC or MAC needed, and all aspect ratio's stay in tact, according NTSC or PAL is used, IRE needs to be set to the correct value with dipswitches or by software. The retro tink is meant for gaming consoles, which give a stable video signal in the first place… A BMD device is no overkill when you have to pay $1000 or more, for a "pro" TBC... |
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Furthermore, lots of gimmicky fake items claim to do what is needed, but few to none ever do. So as a buyer (pro or consumer) you have to learn to research and vet carefully, and spot the BS. Some of us warn others of said BS. Quote:
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Youtube does have a lot of idiots -- the comments alone (on almost ANY video) should prove that. You can find some brilliant stuff there, but it does tend to get drown out by the peanut gallery. Quote:
And that logic is flawed. I viewed the video. Does that mean I'm now a testimonial, regardless of if I agreed with what I saw? Any upsize using HDMI, to HD, in hardware, is a mistake. Upsize needs to be done in Avisynth, not Topaz (too many artifacts, too slow, overall crappy output and experience). Quote:
I think he also considers noise to be "aesthetics" of the era. Of course, that's false, the CRT corrected some of this, whereas line TBC must in the digital realm (and was ideal even in analog era). So he's maybe misremembering seeing these on CRTs? Or perhaps too young at the time? For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es193vBJCdQ Source may indeed be an issue, nth gen. Quote:
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- There's nothing "pro" about time base correctors. It's just a tool for the task of converting video, where you don't want the video to look like complete garbage. Is a hammer or screwdriver a "pro" tool? - With BM, it's not about price comparison vs. TBCs. It has useless HD features that you're paying for. In fact, the entire intention of the card is HD, the SD is an "also does" afterthought. There are better SD cards for this SD tasks, and those cost less. |
I was talking about the 80s and 90s as a measure of time, not hardware. That recorders used to be better than the last models is nothing new. 30 to 40 year old recordings lose signal strength on the tape, period. Trying to argue about the last 5% of quality makes no sense when you already lost 20 to 30% from the data on the tape.
I just bought over 100 pre-recorded VHS tapes, they all have lost image quality due to age. How Do Magnetic Tape and VHS Tapes Decay? - Magnetic particles gradually lose their charge through remanence decay, which results in color shifts towards weaker hues and a loss of overall detail - As the lubricant layer erodes, the binder becomes more prone to wear and tear, which directly affects the magnetic particles and causes loss of information - The polymers in the binder absorb water even in a moderately humid setting, creating a sticky, unplayable mess known as sticky-shed syndrome - Repeated rewinding and playback can cause the backing and substrate to stretch, thereby causing tracking errors and dramatically reduced playback quality - Successive recordings and copying can causes progressive generation loss of information and sync signals Smurf: please upload a few photos of your current setup including hardware from BM and Retrothink with a monitor displaying the image and capture issues you keep talking about. |
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Other age based progressive issues? Yes. Quote:
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