CVBS capturing, VHS digitalization, best capture card?
 

Hi,
looking for advise on what pro card to buy for VHS (CVBS) digitization. The contenders are https://www.startech.com/eu/AV/Converte ... XHDCAP60L2, Epiphan and Magewell.

Any advise is welcome.

Most people here recommend using an ATI All in Wonder card, preferably one with the ATI 200 chipset. That means building an older PC with an AGP card, unless you get the ATI AIW X600 which is PCIE.

I just put together a system with an ATI X600 using an HP Thinclient T610 with Windows XP.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1543101130

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1543101134

If you try to use an HD capture cards with SD, you will have issues. Most HD cards, especially all external USB/etc, have SD a poorly-planned afterthought "feature".

- Magewell is known bad for SD capture.
- Blackmagic is known bad for SD capture.

StarTech is mostly a rebadger of sorts, putting their own pretty braded shell around devices that were R&D'd or released by other companies. So the trick with anything they make video-wise is trying to figure out what's actually inside. Amusingly, when you type in "startech rebadge" into Google, the top result is for that card. It's actually a Micomsoft SC-512N1-L/DVI, which has the same problem as other cheap Chinese capture doodads (yet sells for undeserved $$$).

You'd be much better served using a card known for quality SD capturing, with emphasis in specific ATI cards (AIW, 600 USB and clones). There are others. The best part is all are $150 or less, not the insane $300+ for the inferior (for analog) HD cards.

Note that I do have a few extras available in the marketplace, to help site members acquire known-good supplies for this hobby.

So stay away from HD and go pure analogue for the choice of SD capture card. Then this one should be fine http://www.magewell.com/products/pro-capture-hexa-cvbs, right?

So if I got this right; the most important component is the A/D converter chip, if that is good no mater what card I choose the results should be good.

No, that's wrong.

Chipsets can be used well or poorly. A chip doesn't make hardware, but it is the basis for it. You can have great chipsets on lousy hardware, and lousy chips on ... more lousy hardware. The goal is a good chipset on a good device. That takes research, be it hands-on or reading/Googling. Usually the former, not the latter, but it depends on the device. This site extensively documents some items do to the exquisite chipsets in use.

Ok, got it.
So if I wanted to know if the http://www.magewell.com/products/pro-capture-hexa-cvbs, was a good card for analogue capture I would need to know what chip it uses and other info, or simply test it.

But you also must exactly what you're looking at, when testing, and have a battery of test tapes. Not just any tapes, but tapes known to challenge equipment. This is why, for example, Amazon layman reviews are useless, unqualified opinions based on nothing. And thus why opinion vary wildly, from 1 star to 5. The items are not always professionally reviewed or vetted.

Why are you so endeared to a $500 piece of hardware? In the 1990s, yeah, sure, that was the price for good hardware. But in the 2010s, that price is ridiculous for quality analog capture. It seems that Magewell has simply slapped the term "pro" on the card, and hopes to cash in on it. It does advertise deinterlace and hardware framerate conversion, but both are ill-advised. (1) You should never damaged a source capture that way, neither deinterlace nor frame conversion, (2) framerate conversion is often best done in software with mere IVTC+speedup, or even deinterlace+speedup (3) deinterlacing should be done in software, and with an interlaced capture copy retained for archives.

I only need to capture the pre processed (comb filter + TBC) video signal all the pos-production will be done on the pc side, if I will do any at all. Plan is to capture native interlaced signal and convert it to digital (raw or lossless compressed) and the archive it. But after reading this im more inclined to go VHS PAL pro deck => composite out=> combfilter =>component out =>TBC=> ADC=>digital capture 4:4:4 => to PC with an HD capture card. So basically any HD card with 4:4:4 will do.

That's not a functional workflow.

- Timebase correction must be done as earlier as is feasible.
- Analog is chroma/luma, not component, and that will add a potentially damaging processing step.
- 4:4:4 does nothing when 4:2:2 was already generous

You're chasing phantoms. I have no idea what you've been reading, but you're now on a wild goose chase. Such a workflow will never work as you think or wish.

So how about vhs pro deck =>comb filter -> external conversion to digital -> digital capture in 4:4:4 -> and the rest in software.

Or

VHS PAL pro deck =>composite out=>TBC=>composite => to external comb filter (Pioneer LX90 DVD - outputs component) =>Component => Denoiser => Component (YUV) => pc capture card

Composite is probably worse than component. The separate chroma/luma is mushed together into a single signal, and you get analog artifacts like dot crawl and chroma shimmering as a result. Ideally you'd keep it separated, s-video, and neither composite nor component. SCART is sort of like component, but not entirely.

The issue with component output, again, is that is can harm interlacing quality. You must be careful converting.

The bigger issue is then that component is an HD carrier, not SD, and then you're back at the problem of HD cards handling SD quite poorly. Because you won't find SD cards with component.

If you go down that path, lots of samples clips should be vetted by forum members, searched for problems.

Problem is the Sony SVO-1500P deck only has composite out (I think) no s-video out and the VHS tape are recordings of analogue TV over antenna and analogue satellite.

For the price of that Magewell, you could get an outstanding JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR with s-video out, and a known-quality capture card, and still probably have some money left over.

I sticking with the Sony SVO (tried and tested). Question is what external ADC to use in the chain (going all digital on PC capture card).

You alway say the Blackmagic card is worse.
It's true for all of the analog inputs but it looks like you have never try to capture with the hdmi input. Connect a DVD-Recorder with HDMI Outputs for example the Panasonic EH65 (it is the same as the Panasonic ES15 but with harddisk and HDMI out) to a HDMI-Splitter who delete the HDCP copy protection and capture the native stream in 576i/480i.
If you have tried this way and then again you say the capture card is worse I would accept it.

Your workflow was on my mind, but I could not recall the exact models you're using. I think you potentially have a good setup. What I'd like to see is some capture, showing that the EH65 isn't harming quality in HDMI output. The Blackmagic doesn't have issues with HDMI in, only SD analog. That is something I'd like to try, when time/funds permit.

I'm also using the HDMI approach, though with a JVC DR-MH300. HDMI works fine with the blackmagic, though there are way cheaper alternatives out there for capturing HDMI.

If OP already has the LX90, I suppose that could be worth testing provided they can get a HDMI splitter that works. Though, for a comb filter to work it needs the original signal, if it's been through a TBC, it's been digitized and converted to analog again and the Y/C crosstalk (that the comb filter in the TBC didn't deal with) will have been embedded in the signal.

So it should be like this:

VHS PAL pro deck =>composite out => to external comb filter (Pioneer LX90 DVD - outputs component) => Component => TBC=>composite or component? - don't know what TBC in PAL outputs to=> Denoiser => Component (YUV) => pc capture card

Til the year 2016 there was no better card for HDMI capturing as the Blackmagic Intensity. After 2016 I don't know. One advantage is you can use up to date hardware for capturing with the blackmagic.
Some words about the JVC DR-MH300. He can only capture the range 16-255 and the jitter correction isn't as good as the panasonic dmr's in passthrough mode. But the JVC had a agc which work good but not perfect. The panasonics only pull the videocontent to the standard value and often clip the white levels.

Yup, that mirrors my experience with the JVC. Jitter correction is not great, so either a deck with a TBC or a DVR with better jitter correction is needed for that. The AGC mostly works well but it can occasionally clip whites if the input levels are very bad.

On the plus side it seems to work fine without a HDMI splitter unless you give it a macrovision protected tape, where it demands HDCP support after maybe 5-10 seconds. Never seen it falsely trigger with non-macrovision tapes.

Not at all. Any new or older Blackmagic or AJA can input composite, Y/C and composante YUV, in HD AND SD ...
Aja is good at upscaling, Blacmagick ... never do this , totally blurry.
But the goal is to digitalise, with a solid codec (no inter frame) any other work is to be done after.

You misunderstand.

The Blackmagic is an HD card with the "feature" of backwards-compatible for SD (analog or digital). But the limiter is getting VHS output across component, which no VCR has. It must be processed (either in a combo, or passthrough'd to another unit), and essentially captured before it's captured. Whatever leaves the DVD recorder is burned in forever, no more analog corrections can be done (aside from color with proc amp). It seems Bogilein has found a Panasonic that will output component retained as SD, but most DVD recorders/players exclusively pass HD on component connections, as they would on HDMI. And you must still pay attention to interlacing, as some apparently force deinterlace.

I think one of the glaring differences here in what PAL vs. NTSC recorders do. NTSC was forced HD, while PAL was just digital. So I'm not sure what the NTSC counterpart of his PAL setup will do. It's something I want to look into, given time/funds next year. For me, HDCP is an added concern, SD capturing with HD hardware serves no purpose. But HD hardware dual capable of SD+HD, without any flaws, would be nice to have.

It seems to be normal for PAL DVD recorders to be able to output SD/576i over component, or least on the ones I tested it on. I briefly tested it on my Sony RDR-HX750, but the blackmagic card gave me crackling noise every few seconds so I gave up on using it for anything analog. I doubt there would be any image quality advantage of using component over S-Video for 576i though (unless you're dealing with betacam), component is mainly for higher res and progressive scan video. I suppose one nicety is that the RCA connector is a bit less prone to breakage than the S-Video one with it's tiny pins.

backwards-compatible for SD. ??? what does that mean ? I m using this kind of cards since ... a long time, as a pro vidéo editor. They do Sd work flow or hd workflow flawessly. They had to do both, in the mixed environment of years 2000. And if using a VHS with a digital TBC,which output YC, its very clean. Less cross color. Honey, your Blackmagic is broken, And no component is not for progressive or hi res; as you say first ,it s for betacam; "and essentially captured before it's captured." Well .. digital TBC in VHS are a kind of capture ...

BetacamSP is a pro format, different animal.

In the consumer space, component = HD. And the problem is that DVD recorders and receivers that convert s-video/composite to component output must process, often upscaling and/or deinterlacing. We've already seen that happen in sample captures attached to posts in this forum.

The pro space doesn't really have an s-video/composite > component switch, at least nothing affordable.

Those s-video/composite > component adapter cables on Amazon/eBay are trash. Those remind me of USB converters that do nothing, not as advertised, not what you think.

Standalone consumer converters are about $100. Rather stupid, given that a good SD capture card is less than $100.

TBC is a wide term, and many TBCs leave portions of the signal relatively untouched, allowing further down-chain analog processing. It is sorta-kinda like capturing, as A>D>A is, but far less so than the conversion to component happening in a DVD recorder.

Blackmagic Designs cards do very poorly with SD sources (apparently excluding HDMI in the setups some here are using), and it's fact that Blackmagic themselves have admitted to. It's not a well-designed product for analog SD, and I'm really not surprised given how it was designed HD with HDMI input. Indeed, it is "broken", but its a model problem, not unit problem.

"Blackmagic Designs cards do very poorly with SD source" For upscale to HD or down scale HR tp SD, yes. Other part, ad converters are way over the bandwidth of VHS ... dont mismatch what Blackmagix says with "broadcast' thinking.
Sorry, but i use them (and AJA too) since 2005 ... and thats my work since 1986 ... before digital.
Way better with color space than any ATi or computer card with analog in ...
Any vectorscope-pscilloscope will show it.
And buy an old Snell and wilcox TBC ... to put between VHS and video capture card. Composite or YC or component workflow.
even transcode from scam to pal. cost : 550 euros for TBC+black magic. No match
Or find older AJA Kona. Did some VHS digit yesterday with it (AJ IO HD), today, i repeat with Blackmagic and compare. Difference will be thin ... cause of VHS source.

I probably will get a Kona in the near future. I was slowly building an extra system in 2018, and got a few more deals this weekend on the few remaining pieces. It's entirely for my R&D, not had one of those for a while now, can reinstall OS/etc without interrupting hobby or work. I have a bunch of hardware here just waiting to be tested or retested.

KONA
 

Just digitizing with a Kona at this time ... Y/C in. Yes more clean than a cheap Blackmagic Intensity,
but a pain in the ... to set active in a Mac. Must use older OS 10.10. Sound offset in the capture, and low level because of XLR input. Can be easily corrected, no background audio noise (good preamps)
Best results seems : vidéo input Y/C in AJA, routed via SDI or HDMI in Blackmagic, audio direct in Black magic via low level RCA inputs. What a mess ...
Will soon try on Windows7, and much older OSX 10.9, to get rid of the audio offset.
And thanks to the external TBC, wick fill holes when tape is damaged.
(it s for an industrial work, not home movies ... so i try all kind of configurations, and have U-Matic and Betacam tapes do digitize too.)

Perhaps today. However, in the SD past, before BluRay and HD/digital broadcast, it was not uncommon to find SD component outputs on DVD players and set top boxes. The target was higher end TV sets and projection and large screen TVs. Since then, it and s-video output have largely been replaced by HDMI, with an (often poorly executed) SD composite output remaining as well.

We should keep in contact.

Not many U-Matic converters out there, not even professional services.U-Matic was largely broadcast industry, and conversions were often handled in-house. Probably once per year, we get inquiries. We've located some services in the past, and had clients act as guinea pigs, only to get back shoddy results. I was able to restore most of it, but the quality problems honestly should not have existed in the first place.

For good results with U-Matic, a "magic box" is needed. It converts and separate luma and chroma frequencies, which are very close, and transpose them to standard Y/C; avoiding the terrible cross color of composite; But the box is about 300 bucks ... and hard to find. Found a seller in England. May be i ll buy one. Must search for the link