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08-23-2024, 10:07 PM
leka4 leka4 is offline
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I'm close to completing a medium sized capture project of video8 and VHS tapes of family home videos using the advice on this forum. I need advice on what the next steps are in terms of future editing and archival.

Captured files were done on a C2D, AIW AGP System, Win XP integral, using virtualdub 1.9.11 and standard huffyuv 32bit codec in 720x480 NTSC format using YUY2 format 48KHz 16-bit stereo. I've done some basic trimming of the files on the capture machine using virtualdub to trim the portions of video with black/blue screens. I am planning to get rid of my XP capture machine (maybe on the marketplace?) soon to move the files to my modern PC, unless any members can identify reasons why I would need to keep it.

Questions:
1) I have done reading on this site regarding editing of these huffyuv AVI files on more widely used video editing software such as vegas and Adobe Premiere. I understand that the original pixel format of YUY2 is unfortunately converted into RGB when used on these other programs, which according to members appears to alter the look of the videos and kind of ruins the (lossless) nature of the format. How serious of an issue is this? If I want to edit the videos in the future on a modern PC, is the right way to use adobe premiere (and similar programs) or is running virtualdub or virtualdub2 on a modern OS such as Windows 11 the only known way to edit these videos truly losslessly without any pixel format conversion issues/loss?
2) While I may have access to the files in the future, the huffyuv codec may not be used years from now (even as it is today, support for huffyuv is pretty limited overall as it is a decades old codec - Apple ProRes seem to be one of the most popular codecs at the moment). Should I convert the huffyuv codec AVIs to a different codec now or in the future as new lossless codecs come about? If so, what codec and what software application should I be using to maintain the original files without loss? If I convert, is there a need to keep the original huffyuv files for any reason in that case as they take up lots of space? Should I be converting to lagarith (seems like this is not a popular codec these days overall).
3) These are home family videos that I want to store indefinitely, maybe at home and in a safe deposit box bank vault drawer. I have heard that unplugged SSDs over a long period of time are a no-go for storage. What are people's thoughts on a hard drive's viability for keeping contents over years and decades if stored in ideal conditions, but unplugged? Any suggestions for hard drive models - either internal or external that are good for long term storage? Would I have better luck with an enterprise drive like an Ironwolf or WD gold drive as opposed to consumer drive for long terms of disuse? Any thoughts on external hard drives like WD Elements, Lacie rugged, Toshiba Canvio, Sandisk Pro G-drive? What is the consensus on M-DISCs for long term storage? I am seeing lifespans of hundreds or up to a thousand years advertised with M-Disc (seems like blu-ray drives would wear long before then). I have an external pioneer blu-ray drive that is compatible with M-Disc I can use. I am considering cloud storage as well via the unusual players - iCloud, google drive, dropbox, etc but there are perpetual costs associated with those services with the increased storage size of huffyuv codec files.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by leka4; 08-23-2024 at 10:26 PM.
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  #2  
08-24-2024, 03:12 AM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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This might help. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...uring-vhs.html

Quote:
I've done some basic trimming of the files on the capture machine using virtualdub to trim the portions of video with black/blue screens.
Hopefully that was in direct stream. You can always check your video file with mediainfo if you’re wondering anything about it like what colorspace it’s in.

Quote:
I have done reading on this site regarding editing of these huffyuv AVI files on more widely used video editing software such as vegas and Adobe Premiere. I understand that the original pixel format of YUY2 is unfortunately converted into RGB when used on these other programs, which according to members appears to alter the look of the videos and kind of ruins the (lossless) nature of the format
You want to edit in YUV first then convert to RGB and do that in a script editor like hybrid. Once you have converted to RGB you can bring it into an NLE. You’ll just have to see what codecs that NLE accepts. You want to use losslessly compressed codecs to reduce loss during editing. The NLE will just be used for color editing.

Quote:
even as it is today, support for huffyuv is pretty limited overall as it is a decades old codec - Apple ProRes seem to be one of the most popular codecs at the moment
I believe that’s the reason some people don’t like Davinci resolve. It’s because it doesn’t support a lot of the older codecs. ProRes isn’t a lossless codec.
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08-24-2024, 04:43 AM
leka4 leka4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34 View Post
Great resource, thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34 View Post
Hopefully that was in direct stream. You can always check your video file with mediainfo if you’re wondering anything about it like what colorspace it’s in.
All trimming was done in direct stream copy mode for video and audio. I understand that to preserve the YUV format and to be a 100% lossless operation when done within the same color space as the original file. Correct?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34 View Post
You want to edit in YUV first then convert to RGB and do that in a script editor like hybrid. Once you have converted to RGB you can bring it into an NLE. You’ll just have to see what codecs that NLE accepts. You want to use losslessly compressed codecs to reduce loss during editing. The NLE will just be used for color editing.
The extent of my editing for the foreseeable future is going to be trimming the VHS captures using direct stream copy mode. From what I have seen for myself using the MediaInfo tool, this preserves the YUV color space and should (please confirm) be a 100% lossless operation. It doesn't make sense to have a 140GB 6 hour ET mode VHS tape captured using huffyuv, even as a master archive, if there is only 30 minutes of footage and 5.5 hours of black static.

My question regarding NLE editors pertained more to the future in case there are advancements in restoration tools in future years that may help improve the video quality - what to do then. Now, regarding the above, you are saying to first do the edits in YUV format, then use hybrid or something similar to convert to RGB to edit again in a NLE. Can you please provide more details regarding this process? Is the purpose of the NLE not to edit the file in a more user-friendly and modern program? Why do edits in YUV, save as RGB, then do edits again? What kinds of edits should I do in the YUV color space vs. the types of edits done in RGB? Just trying to understand the process.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by leka4; 08-24-2024 at 05:30 AM.
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  #4  
08-24-2024, 08:02 AM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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Not claiming to know more than Sanlyn or anyone else (that is absolutely not the case), but if you are worried about future-proofing and you are certain that your trimmed files are still lossless, I'd probably store a copy of those on at least two large HDDs, or to be extra safe, you could just store the original captured non-edited files as well if you have extra space. Sounds like no expense is being spared here, so you could also store a copy on M-Disc, and flash/SSD while you're at it.

As an aside for those that use both Windows and Mac - You want to make sure the format of the archive drives are not in a FAT format of any type as they can lose data permanently if there is power loss or if there's a data transmission error and are just more prone to corruption in general. It's unfortunate that there really is no native Mac and Windows compatible Read/Write format that has robust journaling. Most drives come pre-formatted to FAT32 so that both Windows and Mac can read and write to them (and that doesn't have journaling). Mac can at least read and copy files off of NTFS drives without third party software such as Paragon. All Mac-only formats like HFS(journaled) and APFS are journaled, but Windows won't be able to see them at all without third party software.

As for editing, I'd personally use something that can be used for batch processing to do QTGMC deinterlacing (such as Hybrid or Staxrip) FIRST to an intermediate format such as ProRes before throwing the footage into any sort of NLE. While ProRes is not technically lossless, it is visually lossless if you use one of the higher bitrate variants. I believe for SD video, that is either ProRes422 or ProRes422HQ. Once it's deinterlaced to progressive ProRes, you can proceed with either a Mac or Windows editing workflow.

The only time you wouldn't want to deinterlace is if the destination format is interlaced - this is really only the case with DVD or if going back to VHS or displaying on a CRT-TV.

My understanding is that ProRes is an RGB-based colorspace which is different than YUY2, but it's highly probable that your delivery format is going to be is also going to be RGB-based as well, so I would actually think it would be preferable to convert to RGB color space first so that you can do any sort of color correction within the NLE using the destination format's colorspace of RGB.

The main concern I've read about non-lossless formats is that there could be very small generational losses each time you export clips or the full project it with a nonlinear editor. This is basically akin to exporting a JPEG file over in a photo editor as the image is resampled and compressed a little bit differently at each save (generation), though JPEG is much more lossy than ProRes at each resample/recompression. For completeness, lossless photo compression would be to use a format such as PNG - You can make changes and export that over and over and there will be no image degradation. Another analogy would be compressing a regular file using ZIP compression - it always decodes back to a bit-for-bit copy of the starting uncompressed file and there is zero data loss.

If you're always starting with the first QTGMC-deinterlaced ProRes file or perhaps the first rough export of some individual clips that you plan to use later as a base for future projects or edits in an NLE, the risk of perceptible generational/recompression loss is essentially nonexistent as long as the export format is still ProRes.
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08-24-2024, 08:16 AM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Quote:
It doesn't make sense to have a 140GB 6 hour ET mode VHS tape captured using huffyuv, even as a master archive, if there is only 30 minutes of footage and 5.5 hours of black static.
It’s a good idea to watch those when it captures. Something could go wrong then you’re not there to stop the tape or anything.

Quote:
Now, regarding the above, you are saying to first do the edits in YUV format, then use hybrid or something similar to convert to RGB to edit again in a NLE. Can you please provide more details regarding this process? Is the purpose of the NLE not to edit the file in a more user-friendly and modern program? Why do edits in YUV, save as RGB, then do edits again? What kinds of edits should I do in the YUV color space vs. the types of edits done in RGB? Just trying to understand the process.
Hybrid is a GUI for script editing. https://www.selur.de/welcome You can also use Staxrip or Avisynth in Pmod or in Vdub. You can do your RGB color corrections in script also. You don’t have to use an NLE.

You can adjust your hue in YUV. You can see how the color adjustments work in YUV if you look at the color2 function on avisynth’s Wiki. Which color 2 is a vectroscope. The colors are wrapped around your luminance in YUV where RGB stores color information differently. You can also adjust your luma levels back into legal range which is between 16 to 235 if you have a card that didn’t clip those levels in capture. It’s always best to try and capture legal levels no matter what card you have.

Scripting handles the colorspace conversions better than Adobe. NLEs are not going towards offering more filters that work in YUV. The script editing tools are very specialized.

When you’re doing your searching and you go to advanced search type in Sanlyn’s name and read through his post. He goes into a lot of detail on everything.

Last edited by Gary34; 08-24-2024 at 08:32 AM.
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  #6  
08-24-2024, 02:29 PM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Here’s a little over compression.
https://youtu.be/6bLcllmmnuU?si=nZUif6P1sPiWBlVC
https://youtu.be/XZUmVwd1Amk?si=x4sb46itc5lkca2G

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-lossless.html
https://www.archivalworks.com/blog/l...eo-compression
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