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  #1  
03-16-2006, 02:49 AM
Kelly Kelly is offline
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I'm trying to edit, render and burn to 4.7GB DVD from a 2-hour video file captured by Windows Media Center 2005 (dvr-ms format) and am having trouble getting good results.

The primary tool I'm using is Adobe Premiere Elements 2.0. I have selected this tool for two "co-existent" important features that I haven't found in any other competing "hobbyist level" product: 1) the ability to automatically demux the audio and video so I can edit the audio independently from the video; and 2) the ability to edit both the audio and video together in "one step." Most products I've evaluated will do #2 but not #1 or they'll do #1 but not also #2.

Because PreEl 2.0 doesn't import dvr-ms files, I'm using VideoRedo to convert the dvr-ms file. I tried using VideoRedo to convert the dvr-ms file to mpeg-2 but PreEl didn't recognize VideoRedo's mpeg-2 file. So, I used VideoRedo to convert the dvr-ms file to VOB and that DID successfully import into PreEl.

After editing the file, adding menus, etc. I burned the file to DVD--all using PreEl. Because the file was 2 hours in length, PreEl forced a "lower quality" setting in burning to 4.7GB DVD. Sure enough, the quality was lousy.

So, I tried a video file that was only 1 hour in length. With the shorter file, PreEl allowed the "high quality" setting before burning to 4.7GB DVD. And the result was less lousy but still lousy!

So now I wonder whether PreEl is even capable of doing a decent job of rendering and burning at all. I've read some opinions that Retail products in this category are all lousy and I'm starting to believe it.

I know about DVDShrink and that it may be useful in helping solve some part of this problem. But I haven't been able to figure out how to get PreEl to produce the output that DVDShrink will import. For example, DVDShrink only works with VOB files read from a VIDEO_TS directory, right? And I don't think PreEl knows how to create the proper directory structure and create VOB files as output.

This is just a hobby for me, so I need solutions that don't cost what the pros are paying for their tools. I'm willing to throw PreEl away if I have to, but I still need a video editor that will allow me to edit the audio independently from the video.

Please help! Thanks!!
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  #2  
03-16-2006, 03:25 AM
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Ahh .... where to start....

DVR-MS is an MPEG-2 file that includes metadata about the recorded program, stored inside a propreitary MS container/wrapper (no different an AVI or Quicktime file). So it's nothing more than an MPEG-2 data with some additional data, just like VOB files.

It appears VideoReDo will strip the unneeded MS metadata from the file, and output a "clean" (in terms of the data, not visually) MPEG stream for you. This can be used for editing.

What you want is advanced editing. The software you have chosed is a stripped-down version of Adobe Premiere, what they used to call "LE" (limited edition) versions, but I guess "Elements" sounds more warm and fuzzy. Anyway, it was designed mostly for DV video, limited to 720x480 MPEG output, and I believe the same is true of 720x480 input (but I could be wrong here). It also has a more limited selection of tools and filters. For most people, especially for DV editing, it works fine. There's nothing wrong with it.

I use the full version of Adobe Premiere. I'm still using version 6.5, which is about 3-4 years old, but does everything I need. If you ever thought about upgrading, you can always buy used copies off of eBay (just be careful to buy legit ones, and not fakes, just read seller feedback).

Now with all this in mind, realize Adobe Premiere is an editor, an NLE. It was made for importing edit-ready video formats, like DV, and other uncompressed or low compression AVI files. MPEG is not an edit-ready file, it's an end-product format. While there are ways (tricks, mostly) to import MPEG video into an NLE like Premiere, it will be at sacrificed performance, and possible crashing of the software.

The way I convert MPEG back to AVI is to use the free tool VirtualDub, the one that will read MPEG-2 files. You can find a version of it here: http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/stable/index.html. Simply start the software, open the MPEG-2 video file that was made by VideoReDo (it will take some time to read the file), and then "save as" AVI (by default, uncompressed AVI is the output format for video).

You may need to also enable "full compression mode" under the audio menu in VirtualDub, and then go under "compression" option and select uncompressed WAV/PCM audio.

This should output an uncompressed AVI file for you, which contains both uncompressed audio and video. Now, realize these files are large. Video editing requires a massive amount of space. Uncompressed video occupies 75GB/hour of space. So you'd better have a large hard drive (for example, I have 1TB of space on my main editing system). If you cramped for space, let me know, and we can look at trying to use a compression format like HuffYUV temporarily, which uses about 25-30GB per hour of video.

By converting to uncompressed AVI, there is no loss of quality. When you edit and output the video, all you must do is choose decent enough settings so that the output is not too much lower than the input.

Now, you mentioned DVD Shrink. This is NOT an option you ever want to use. DVD Shrink is a transcoder (not an encoder!) and would best be described as a "cheat" for video compression. But the key factor is that the source must be a professional DVD release, not something you made on your own. The loss of transcoding professional material can range from transparent to severe. But the loss from transcoding homemade material almost always results in low quality video, lousy results. So just forget all about DVD Shrink, that's counterproductive.

Now the issue with video quality for 2 hours on DVD is that it requires a compression of about 5500k, and Premiere Elements only allows 720x480. The ratio of resolution to bitrate is at the minimum for acceptable results, optimal bitrate for 720x480 would have been in the 7000-9000k range. Unfortunately, using 352x480 is unavailable.

Now, before the days of Premiere (full edition, years ago) you could output another uncompressed AVI file, and then use a separate encoder software to encode to MPEG. I don't know whether this option is available in Elements, but I doubt it, since it seems to be aimed solely at the DV->DVD audience. And even if it did work, you would still need more authoring software (Tsunami DVD Author for $40 would be my suggestion, in that scenario).

So that leaves us at a situation with few options.

I suggest you convert you video to uncompressed AVI, edit as needed, and then output yourself the MPEG-2/DVD. See how that goes. This may have simply been a problem of Premiere acting poorly with MPEG input, but it's only one of many possibilities.

See how that goes and report back.

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  #3  
03-18-2006, 02:36 AM
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Ok...here's what I've tried.

I installed VirtualDub from the link provided.

I took a 30-minute video segment and saved it as AVI using VirtualDub. I could not find "full compression mode" or "uncompressed WAV/PCM" options anywhere in VirtualDub. Compression options did exist under the Audio menu but they were disabled.

I then imported the file created by VirtualDub into Premiere Elements 2.0. When I played the video, the video quality was very bad. It displayed only about every 50th frame. The audio quality was fine.

So I uninstalled Premiere Elements and downloaded and installed a trial version of Premiere Pro 2.0, thinking that the problem may be just with Elements. Wrong! The same thing happened with Premiere Pro. I even re-booted between steps a couple times to make sure it wasn't a memory leak problem. Incidentally, the video quality is near perfect upon playback in Premiere (both Elements and Pro) when I don't use VirtualDub before importing into Premiere. (I just can't get good DVD output with Premiere.)

By the way, the PC hardware I'm using is a brand new HP Pavilion with 2.2Ghz CPU, 1GB RAM and plenty of disk.

Am I doing something wrong?
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  #4  
04-02-2006, 06:38 PM
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Take a look at this, for the FULL PROCESSING options:



Make sure these are both set AFTER you've opened up you file.

Under the COMPRESSION menu, pick PCM audio.



If you're unable to get to this options, then that means one of two things:

(1.) Your video has no audio.
(2.) Your computer does not have a codec required to playback the audio format. This could be a problem if you have AC3 Dolby, for example, but I doubt it, given your capture method (I'm not aware of MCE using AC3 audio capture, I'd think it used MPEG Layer II audio for an MPEG capture).

As far as the AVI made by VirtualDub being bad, that's odd. Something does not add up here. Be very sure you're only using uncompressed video settings:



If none of this is helping, maybe the version of VirtualDub that you are using is bad. I guess I'll have to give you the same one I have, just to be sure.

Let me know how this works out. Try it again.



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  #5  
04-10-2006, 10:40 PM
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Ok, I reinstalled VirtualDub and was able to get the Compression options that were disabled before (funny how that works sometimes).

However, the video (as seen in PreEl) was only slightly better (but still not anywhere close to good enough).

Let's try the version of VirtualDub you're using and see if that does the trick.
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  #6  
04-13-2006, 08:18 PM
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I'm having trouble understanding what is wrong with the video as seen in Adobe Premiere. I can only wonder if you're considering normal video properties to be problematic, such as overscan noise, interlace, and or preview modes.

Are you able to cut me off a piece of video, about 25MB or less in size, so I can see more accurately what the exact error is? Let me know. If you can do this, I'll send you FTP information for an upload.


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  #7  
04-18-2006, 12:39 AM
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Ok, but a file that size is less than one second of video output from VirtualDub. I don't know how you'll be able to see anything in that small of a segment. I created a file of about 2 seconds and it is 59MB.
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04-24-2006, 05:47 PM
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Well, I actually meant about 25MB worth of the MPEG video source. I can convert it to uncompressed AVI on my own.

If you do not currently have MPEG editing software, then follow this guide for using TMPGEnc Plus to extract a clip of an MPEG: http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/...peg/removecomm ercials.htm#tmpgenc

The TMPGEnc Plus software has a 14-day MPEG-2 trial license and can be found here for free download: http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/download/tp.html

I've e-mailed you a temporary username/password to upload a file up to 30MB in size. Is it safe to assume you know how to use an FTP? You'll also need to have it in PORT mode, not PASV (passive) transfer mode, refer to your FTP software documentation (although this is something found in the software options or preferences, should be easily to locate just by sniffing around some).



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05-02-2006, 03:32 PM
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I got the clip off the FTP, and I see no problems on the video. In fact, you have a very clean quality capture, with good audio levels (what little hiss noise exists is due to the old B&W film source), and it even appears to be good B&W quality with good contrast (thank the broadcaster for that one).

There is actually no overscan noise to be seen. Just some slight black masking along the perimeters, to be expected from a high quality broadcast.

Are you maybe interpreting the interlace as noise? Those are the comb lines in the video, which is normal for tv viewing. They will be seen ONLY on the computer because the computer is a progressive display system.

And then when you set up Premire, I bet you're not specifying either the input or output as interlaced (and with correct field dominance, which is top field). That would do some major quality damage, both by adding blocks to the image, and by displaying lines on screen.

Now, I have to ask: Why are you using Adobe Premiere? Are you trying to simply record some tv shows and make a nice DVD? If so, you're going about it the hard way.

Or do you have bigger plans, maybe some sort of special project where you take various clips and edit them into something else? Like your own documentary or music video or something. For that, I could completely understand the need for an advanced NLE (non-linear editor).

If you're doing the former, and not the latter, let me know. There is other software out there (some cheap, some not so cheap) that will cater to that exact need. You've already got the editor, all you need next is the authoring software, and that's where I have suggestions.



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  #10  
05-03-2006, 03:57 AM
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I'll answer your questions/points in order:

- I'm not referring to interlace. As I mentioned in my second entry in this thread, the problem with quality that I'm seeing is this: when I import a file output from VirtualDub into PreEl 2.0 and review the video segment, what is displayed in PreEl is about every 50th frame. (Now, I never burned the segment to DVD to see if it turns out better when burned because I assumed that if the quality was bad in view mode in PreEl it would be bad when burned to DVD.)

- I looked in PreEl 2.0 for any interlace or field dominance settings and could not find any. Are you sure those settings are available in 2.0? Perhaps you're referring to Premiere 6.5??

- The short answer to your last question is "the former." Most of what I'm trying to do is capture TV and burn to DVD. So if you know an easier way, I'm all ears!!

But as I stated in my first entry in this thread, I chose PreEl 2.0 for two features that I couldn't find co-existent in any other GA hobbyist-level NLE (quoting my post):

"1) the ability to automatically demux the audio and video so I can edit the audio independently from the video; and 2) the ability to edit both the audio and video together in 'one step.' Most products I've evaluated will do #2 but not #1 or they'll do #1 but not also #2."

To recap, here's everything I'm trying to do:

- Take a 2-hour dvr-ms file, convert it to MPEG2, and edit out 1) unwanted audio without having to delete the accompanying video and 2) unwanted video along with the accompanying audio. All in "one step" using a simple user interface.

- Using the same tool, author DVD menus, etc.

- Burn the edited, authored, 2-hour MPEG2 file to 4.7GB DVD without noticeable loss of quality.

(And remember, as I said before in this thread I'm willing to throw away PreEl 2.0 and use something else--like Premiere 6.5--if I have to.)

If this is still confusing, perhaps we could have a 5-minute phone call (to make sure we're understanding one another)???
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  #11  
05-03-2006, 11:07 AM
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I'm going to download the trial of Adobe Premiere Elements 2.0 and see what I can find for you. The only issue here is the download is 1.2GB large, and will be a day or so before I can commit 2 hours of offline time to grabbing the file.

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10-14-2006, 11:36 AM
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Continuing here instead of in e-mail...

This is the wall I run into, using Adobe Premiere Elements 2.0. The projects settings refuse to change to top-field video, the option is grayed out. It's set to bottom-field (DV video), and may be static since this is DV-audience software.




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  #13  
10-16-2006, 11:29 PM
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I tried with two different files and got the same result (it won't allow the top-field setting).
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10-18-2006, 06:58 AM
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That's all it is then. Your interlace threshold is reversed on your output, and is why the video looks bad. I'll have to keep this mind. It seems Elements is truly a DV-only solution, totally worthless for anything else.

I can only guess at what Premiere Elements was doing to your video file. It was probably de-interlacing and then re-interlacing as bottom field. That must look dreadful!

You mentioned a willingness to move to Adobe Premiere 6.5 or Pro. It looks to be required at this point in time. I use 6.5 and it should be pretty cheap to get. Since Premiere is approaching overkill for your needs (and other products are not up to par), that older version should be just fine for you. Nothing older.

It's only an editor of course, so you'll have to author in something else.

It's basically the same thing, for using Premiere full editions. Open a new project (DV template is fine), import your sources, drop on timeline, edit. Then go to your project settings before export, be sure the field order is set to top-field for your top-field source, and then export with the MPEG encoder to a top-field interlaced MPEG-2 file (use on of the templates). The file will output on your system, and then you use whatever you want to author.

If you need suggestions here, for authoring, let me know your budget and your project desires. I'll suggest something that can perform what you want, and hopefully within the budget allowed.

And then if you need any help using Premiere 6.5, let me know. But I have a feeling you're familiar enough with Premiere Elements that the full version will be easy.

Hope that helps.



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12-18-2006, 02:28 PM
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Thanks for all the info.

Since I need to purchase 6.5, I'd like to avoid spending a lot on the authoring tool, too. All I want to do is the basic stuff; you know, break a movie up into chapters and put menus to it. I think the key, here, would be to find something pretty cheap that will work well with Premiere 6.5 (since it seems that a lot of the products out there are incompatible with one another). So, if you have any proven experience with a cheap authoring tool that works well with 6.5, that would be the one. I would appreciate your recommendation.

Thanks, again, for your patience and all the help during this long, drawn-out saga!
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12-19-2006, 10:55 AM
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I called Adobe and got some more information that I'd like to get your take on. They said that PreEl 2.0 has the same capability as Premiere 6.5 when it comes to what I'm trying to do.

They suggested that Microsoft's "dvr-ms" recording format's aspect ratio must be lower than 720 x 480, which they say is the real problem. And I think you hit on that before in this thread. They say going to Premiere 6.5 isn't going to solve that.

They say that what I need is a software product that will capture the TV signal in uncompressed format. And finding one that does that and that will produce an output format that PreEl 2.0 can read as input (e.g., "avi") would be a better next step than going to Premiere 6.5. Given everything I've heard from you, I'm inclined to go this route.

Thoughts?
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12-21-2006, 02:15 PM
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I don't think the Adobe tech knows anything beyond a script, and has never actually used any of this software in a video editing environment. The only thing Adobe phone support is good for is a phone version of the info already found on their online site.

He mostly just wants to sell another copy of Premiere, not actually help you.

But yes, capturing with a capture device would be an easier option. And I'd look at capturing AVI especially if you want to edit in Premiere. I'm not a fan of DV compression, but a Canopus ADVC100 card (external unit) may work well in this scenario. For uncompressed, ATI AIW Radeon cards are an option too. It all depends if you want to install one and remove your current graphics card, and if you have an AGP slot on the motherboard.

You can use something easy like TMPGEnc DVD Author, and it works great (or even SVCD2DVD, for that matter), but it's not something that integrates with Premiere. And honestly, authoring software should NOT be integrated with an editor, they are separate functions.

Let me know what direction you're leaning in.


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01-15-2007, 12:09 PM
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Through more product research, phone calls to Adobe technical support, and some product testing I think I've finally stumbled onto a solution.

I turns out that Adobe Premiere Elements 2.0/3.0 work best with the DV-AVI input format. So, I purchased ADS Tech's Pyro AV Link, an analog to DV converter. It comes bundled with Premiere Elements 3.0 now, so I'm upgrading to 3.0 with this purchase.

I've captured a 2-hour TV program with AV Link, edited the segment in PreEl 2.0 (I haven't installed 3.0 yet due to a licensing key problem that ADS Tech is working on), authored menus, and burned to DVD-R using DVD Shrink...all with great results!

The only thing I give up by moving off Media Center and the dvr-ms format is the ability to schedule a capture using AV Link. But that's an acceptable trade-off.

So, after 13 months of research, trial and error, and persistence, I'm finally in a good place.

Thanks for all your help on this.
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01-18-2007, 09:31 AM
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Yes, the 'Elements' version is a stripped-down consumer version mostly intended for DV video from DV cameras. I actually mentioned that in my first post in this thread.

The ADV Pyro AV is a decent little device, it should serve you well. Just be sure that you have enough hard drive space for all those DV captures.

You can always capture timer work on the MCE in DVR-MS, and then simply play them back into the DV capture device. You'll need more than one computer for that, but it's possible. You could also just as well use a TIVO or hard drive DVD recorder in XP mode for those timer jobs, and then play back into the DV capture device. It's not the optimal method, but quality loss would be minimal if you're using the low-compression MPEG captures.

Lots of ways to skin a cat, as they say. Glad to hear you found at least one way that has worked well for you.


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01-25-2007, 08:49 AM
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While we were trying to figure out what to do, it seems MainConcept released an MPEG import plugin (finally!) for Adobe Premiere Elements, the new MainConcept MPEG Elements http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=6887

How's that for luck?


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