TBC for SECAM-L VHS?
 

Hello!

Are there any stand-alone SECAM-compatible TBC ?

Background :
Old family tapes (80's) but play flawlessly on CRT.

After having ocasionaly tried different things over the years, my latest hardware chain is : VCR -> ADVC-110
I have tried some VCR/DVD combos, but either there where of poor PQ or having some issues during digitalization

Despite the VCR having alignment control, i have 3 issues on some tapes :
- mild horizontal alignment issues (since the ADVC has no TBC)
- 1 line (i think) vertical jitter
- flash with superposed picture (happend with one tape)
- whole picture scroll up or down issue (split frame) (with several 60min+ tapes)

Those last two are the bigest problem. Can a TBC fix that ?

SECAM TBCs, yes.
SECAM-L TBCs, no. Not that I'm aware of, at least.

Vertical "jitter" (laymen definitino, not technical) can be fixed (or caused by) both line and frame TBCs.

"flashing" is a sign of false anti-copy, in most cases. Natural errors can imitate the artificial anti-copy errors. The ADVC-110 has forced anti-copy detection. Yes, a TBC would fix this, if that is the cause.

The "scroll and and down" can be related to lack of frame TBC, but also sounds like a vhold issue.

Are these SECAM, or SECAM-L (France)?

thank you.

I am in france, so i guess everything is SECAM-L

Verify, never assume.
You may have regular SECAM VHS tapes, not SECAM-L.

L, B/G, D/K, H, K, M are just variations of broadcast standards that are related to the tuner in the deck, On tape it is just SECAM, L was the broadcast standard in France and Luxembourg, the other variations are for Europe and the rest of the world who broadcasted in SECAM. Most TBC's that accept PAL usually process SECAM, just check the manual.

That's not accurate.
For example, SV-7000W plays SECAM-L, while SV-5000W only plays SECAM-D/K/B/G/K1.
MESECAM is like PAL, but native SECAM (SECAM-L) is not.

All SECAM broadcast categories have 625 luma lines, 50 fields/s, 4.43 MHz chroma subcarrier, Any other parameters differences are strictly UHF/VHF related, not tape related such as channel bandwidth, type of modulation ...etc, Unless you are playing tapes using the tuner RF out it should play the tape fine.

Here is all SECAM broadcast categories (Wikipedia):

SECAM B: VHF-only in most Western European countries (combined with system G and H on UHF); VHF and UHF in Australia. Originally known as the Gerber standard # [3].

SECAM D: The first 625-line system. Used on VHF only in most countries (combined with system K on UHF). Used in the Mainland China (PAL-D) on both VHF and UHF.

SECAM G: UHF only; used in countries with System B on VHF, except Australia.

SECAM K: UHF only; used in countries with system D on VHF, and identical to it in most respects.

SECAM K': Used only in French overseas departments and territories.

SECAM L: Used only in France. On VHF Band 1 only, the audio is at −6.5 MHz. Discontinued in 2011, when France transitioned to digital. It was the last system to use positive video modulation and AM sound.

I think you are looking at the wrong thing. There are two different tape formats for it for standard VHS. The MESECAM variant, used in e.g eastern europe is a modification of the PAL circuitry, while the "true" SECAM variant used mainly in France downconverts the FM-encoded SECAM color signals in a slightly different way. A lot of PAL VCRs can playback MESECAM, since it didn't require a lot of extra compared to normal PAL playback stuff, while "true" SECAM is limited to playback on SECAM VCRs and some multi-system VCRs. The composite SECAM output format is the same on both (though I don't know if there are quality differences between the SECAM variants). The over the air broadcast variants are as mentions not relevant unless you for some reason need to use RF output.

A number of the PAL DVD-recorders including the Panasonic ES10 has support for SECAM input, I presume there were proper SECAM variants of them released in SECAM territories as well tho. The AVT-8710 TBC support SECAM as well I think, though you would ideally want a VCR with built-in TBC to use with that, and I don't know if they were as prevalent as form PAL/NTSC.

SECAM-L in MESECAM will be B&W image.

No, You are looking at the wrong thing, MESECAM, PAL60, NTSC50 are VCR formats and have nothing to do with UHF/VHF broadcasting, The letter identification of broadcast frequencies such as B,G, D,K ...etc existed way before VCR came to existence.
The OP was asking if SECAM-L will be supported by a TBC and in the TBC world the letter does not really count, SECAM-L is SECAM, MESECAM is not SECAM. The OP never asked about MESECAM, PAL or NTSC.

PAL, PAL-N, PAL-M = not the same, different VCRs needed
SECAM, SECAM-L = not the same, different VCRs needed

MESECAM is shorthard for "Middle East SECAM". It's not a format either. Like NTSC-J, and some others.

There's really not a "SECAM" either, it's a shorthand to the actual broadcast/tape formats. For example, while SECAM-B may be a broadcast format, technically SECAM-B/G/etc is the videotape format. Instead of a word salad of letters, you just say "SECAM". Sort of like "DVD" when you mean "the DVD-Video specification".

I don't know how i can check what SECAM is it, but this is basicaly the SECAM that every french use(d) since "forever" for VHS.

I have borrowed and tried a Sony DVD recorder rdr hxd990 as line-in/out. That seems to improve most of the things regarding scrolling picture. And there is also a line TBC, but it is bogus, the 95% of the picture is fixed (straight vertical lines) but the 5% upper part is now distorded on the tape i am trying now. (not the case without using the DVD recorder).

So i will need to look for something else.

EDIT : well actually it doesn't fix anything (scrolling/jitter) except for the line TBC that works or make things worse depending of the tape.
I wish i could rent one on those TBC.

Sounds like i will have to send them to a lab.. I have tried once, the PQ quality was lesser than my DVD combi... though it had no jitter/flashing issues.

Yes, there is one VCR SECAM version used in France, My aunt used it, my sister used it, My cousins, they all live in different parts of France and never had to buy L VCR and B VCR, So again just look for a TBC that accepts PAL/SECAM, otherwise just send it out to a company that can do it for you since the TBC is not going to be cheap.

VCR-wise, If I'm not completely wrong, a few European JVC models (especially the French (?) models with the suffix MS) do seem to support TBC for SECAM(-L) tapes, but not for MESECAM tapes:

Here's from the manual of the JVC HR-S9700MS:

"En lisant une bande MESECAM, Digital TBC/NR ne marche pas
même si l’indicateur DIGITAL TBC/NR est allumé."

...to me, this means that it supports SECAM but not MESECAM, but it's hard to be sure when nothing's explicitly written in the manual. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you

I actually asked a german seller about his 9600s, and he told me something similar.
I will try to scout a SECAM 9600/9700ms (but i will probably won't find one at reasonable price).
There is one for 2000€ on ebay...

I can't confirm anything, but the HR-S7600MS (and its rebrand the Thomson Scenium VSH2080 - which is on Ebay at the moment, but quite expensive) and the HR-S8600MS likely also have this functionality. I found the manual for the HR-S8700MS, and it mentions the same thing as in my previous post.

Don't pay 2000€! Keep an eye out on Leboncoin and Ebay - you will likely find something for around ten times cheaper!

Thanks !
Yes 2000€ is out of the question.

I will look for any 7600/8600/9600+ MS models.

There is a 9600MS on ebay, auction still ongoing.
The 160€ Thomson looks almost cheap at this point... if it is in good shape.

The issue is i won't know the exact condition / playback quality (they will say "it play fine") untill i buy the unit.

I actually did not see that one when I first searched for it. You will likely not find a much cheaper unit online, to be honest - unless one pops up locally or on Leboncoin.

Ask the seller what it says about the TBC in the manual before you buy it, if you decide to buy it. And prepare yourself for needing to service it locally in any case - it shouldn't be extremely expensive. Seeing as it is a French model, parts (belts, etc.), if necessary, seem to be sold in France.

...I wonder what the suffix in the model number stands for. Could F stand for France, and G for Germany?

The european 8500 and 9500 (but not 7500) also feature a TBC, mentioned in the SM for the MS versions as well. Some of the JVC manuals mention system conversion boards as well, so they may be able to convert secam to pal output.

Are there extra suffixes besides the MS? I thinkj the letters say something about TV system, U for american NTSC, EH/E/EK/EU various PAL ones, MS seem to support SECAM while AM seem to be PAL/NTSC/MESECAM multisystem ones. KR may be NTSC korean models but not sure. Japanese models seem to use victor branding rather than JVC with different numbering schemes (and many models that were only released in japan.)

Good to know!

I think that there were a couple more JVC suffixes - of which the majority I've seen are posted in the JVC machine list thread. It seems as though they do refer to the colour systems/regions used, yes - I've seen MS and just S be used for SECAM-L-compatible units, seemingly for the French market. I was actually referring to the Thomson suffixes in my previous post - but it's only speculation since it's uncharted territory at this point.. :laugh:

Hmm strange perhaps it does work with Secam (L/B), i doubt it though.

I used to work with a JVC HR-8600MS and the manual clearly says "the tbc don't work with secam and mesecam tapes".

What the 8600ms can do is transcode Secam to PAL (not mesecam). I've never tried though and i can't anymore anyway.
So if you can my drift : jvc 8600ms (pal out)> dedicated tbc (Pal) > capture

And for the record:
Secam-L (Tv recordings,france)
Secam-B (retail vhs movies sold in France)
Mesecam: secam signals (tv) recorded with pal vcr (kind of a hydrid colour coding/decoding system used by few countries like switzerland)

edit:
You're right , i'm reading the 9700MS manual as i type it talk about mesecam only not working with the TBC. There is hope for Secam (L/B)

MESECAM is a home recording format, It is not an official VHS standard and never existed when VHS was officially standardized. In the heyday of VHS when VHS camcorders were a big thing, tourists would go to places like Europe and North America and they buy camcorders to tape their vacation and when they go home they find out that their TV or VCR don't display the color or no picture at all, so VCR manufacturers saw the opportunity to fix this problem and boost their VCR sales by adding such features, and that's when MESECAM (Middle East SECAM), PAL60 (NTSC 4.43 @ 60Hz) and NTSC50 (NTSC 3.58 @ 50Hz) were born.

@themaster1

- Can you upload the manual, if it's not already on this site?
- You're in France, aren't you? Or at least somewhere in non-English Europe, right?

Only if you can read French, HR-S7600MS, HR-S8600MS and HR-S9600MS:

Interesting. Those three manuals seem to say that the TBC doesn't work for SECAM or MESECAM tapes. When I googled, the same goes for the HR-S7700MS.

This means that I can only find that the HR-S8700MS, and the HR-S9700MS may have SECAM TBC functionality.

Crumby, don't bother buying the Thomson unit unless the seller shows you the user manual, and the user manual says that the TBC works for both SECAM and MESECAM.

Here are user manuals for the HR-S7700MS, HR-S8700MS and HR-S9700MS. I also have service manuals for the HR-S6700MS/HR-S7700MS, and the HR-S8700MS/HR-S9700MS. All in French.

The manual of my JVC HR-S9500MS says the same: Digital T.B.C. / N.R. is off when reading SECAM or MESECAM tape even if the light is on. Attached the manual.

I messed up and can't edit my post again. Don't bother buying the Thomson unit unless the seller shows you the user manual, and the user manual doesn't say that the TBC is inactive for SECAM.

Thanks. I am losing hope again.

According to the manuals you posted :

7600/8600/9600 : NO
7700 : NO
8700/9700 : maybe, can be an error in the manual

I asked the Thomson seller to look at the manual

-- merged --

The thomson owner said he didn't found any info in the manual about this. And that he only used PAL tapes.

Looking at the ended auctions history on ebay, it seems unlikely i will find a 8700ms or 9700ms anytime soon.

The TBC are too expensive without being sure of the result. I will try to send tape to another lab.

-- merged --

hello!

I sent some tapes to a lab few month ago. I still have to look at the result more thoroughly but at first glance it doesn't seems very sharp and got some kind of temporal-smoother effect. (i said to them to not use any filtering).

As for my current VCR (a Toshiba) that got very good picture -when it works-, i wonder if it could be fixed. Maybe all of this come from my VCR.
Can a loose belt create all this kind of issues ?
ie : Jumping image on some tapes. Inconsisent alignment (the VCR has to adjust every few seconds) on some others tapes, etc. But OK on some tapes...

Edit : i will look at trying new SECAM VCR anyway, TBC or not.
I saw a s9700ms for 320€ but no shipping, unrevised and like 1000km away.

I did some Secam-L experiments today
The gear: JVC HR S7700MS , Sony RDR HXD890
Note:This JVC vcr can output PAL

Objectives:
1-Does outputing PAL has en effect on picture quality (colors/levels) for Secam-L tapes ?
2- Is the signal TBC'd with pal output ?

Answer: YES to both. The best option seems to output PAL and activate the digital TBC. If you activate the TBC the colors will be better (very close to the original secam-L signal) and the signal TBC'd (vertical lines straighter). If you don't, it'll look discolored at times (not all frames) (although easily fixable in a good NLE) and the timing not corrected.

Also, the sony dvd recorder i use has a tbc (or frame sync whatever) and i used the filter chroma noise reduction. I could notice that without activating PAL in the vcr, the chroma noise is not reduced at all / timing not synced.

Has Anyone ever confirmed this for 8700 and 9700, they only say MESECAM does not work, they dropped the word "secam" That was present in 8600/9600 manuals from the sentence.

To answer my own question

I previously concluded it does not from the samples here

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post90491

And again, I tried a 9700MS myself and confirmed it with a couple of tapes.

The JVC 9700MS does not have a TBC for SECAM. Dropping "SECAM" from the user manual was most likely due to a blind translation from the EU manual without taking into consideration that this is French model.

With that, it is safe to say there is no Single Panasonic nor JVC in the French market with the ability to do line TBC on a direct SECAM signal.

It is possible as Themaster1 showed to use the TBC if you transcode to PAL (and degrade the quality a bit).
Another (and better IMHO) possibility is to use a VCR (output SECAM)+ an ES10/15 that will take the SECAM signal, convert it to PAL inside, and correct it. It does a great job at it.

The TBC in 9700MS obviously works fine for PAL.

The TBC in 9700MS also works for NTSC (PAL60), but it performs very poorly compared to native NTSC decks.