Weird horizontal distortions; sign of TBC usage?
 

Apologies for coming on here often, my curiosity never ceases to raise questions ^^;

I have been noticing these little horizontal distortions on my S-VHS VCR captures, and it made me a little worried as to if it was due to TBC (over) usage or a lack of maintenance. (Examples attached).
I'd like to know if there is a way to remove them as I am aiming for a good enough quality picture.

I am aware a Frame TBC could help, but these are way too expansive for me, heh ^^;
However any help is appreciated!

Thank you!

Assuming the VCR TBC is actually on...

That's an in-image tearing/flagging issue. Those are harsher than standard line timing issues, and will overrun most all line TBCs. Worse yet, the line TBC in S-VHS deck can make that exact error worse.

The ES10/15 is well-known for tearing correction. However, it tends to only correct top-screen tearing, not in-image tearing.

Is this tape nth gen, by chance? Mean a copy of a copy, not the original? Because that's a common source of in-image tearing errors. It's actually a compounded line timing error due to multi-generational copying (aka, nth gen).

In-image tearing is rare on source/mastery type tapes, but can happen when the recording VCR was a extremely lousy.

I recently discovered that the S&W TBS800 (recent acquisition) addresses similar or worse problems that my JVC LTBC failed to fix, The tape is EP and at least second gen dub, It didn't make sense to me to how the TBS800 has fixed the baked in problems but it did almost completely eliminated them, I can clearly see the LTBC of the VCR is fixing the line timing in the final dub and leaves the baked in ones there.

This leads me to believe that the line TBC'ish in the TBS800 ignores completely the HBI pulses and create new ones based on the edges' brightness of the black border area in each scan line. If this is proven to be true this will be the most advanced LTBC I've ever come across. I posted samples over at videohelp in one of my threads.

How does the TBS800 compare to the ES10 for this same error? Not the ES15, but the 10 (stronger).

Apologies for the lack of response!
I don't know if it is a copy of a copy, as I don't know how to tell if it is a dubbed tape. I'd say it is unlikely given the content (ads, forecast and news report at the end, which follows the movie that was recorded on it. To me it would've been cut out if it had been dubbed.) Dunno if the content has anything to do with it though.

Is it possible to upload a photo of the in-image tearing or a link where you can see it? So I can imagine what it looks like, maybe I know it under different name in my native language.

I don't have such DVD recorder to compare it unfortunately. but it doesn't seem to affect sharpness or brightness since there is no digital to analog conversion is involved.

Would an ES10 fix the issue then? Or do I need to seek for one of these crazy-expansive frame sync TBCs?
I'd like to know if there's a cheap way to fix it, or at the very least don't make it as visible

Maybe I should have looked at the pictures first:smack:.....Is that what we see in the two pictures called in-image tearing?

This could be corrected with the panasonic dvd-recorders.

It could fix it, Every tape is unique though, tape issues cannot be generalized therefore it's trial and error.

Here's a short clip.
Hauppauge USB2 Live vs Panasonic DMR-E55 as splitscreen mpg.

Notice the microphone stand.

Seeing your clips, I figure using the Line TBC in my VCR plus the DMR-ES10 (or 55 for that matter) could give a pretty good result, then?

Usually the Line-TBC in your VCR should be off.

Is there any lineTBC (in the VCR or adding some Panasonic external DVR) in the Hauppauge USB2 Live capture path?

That's pretty impressive. Add E-55 to the list?! :wink2:

if the E-55 is the same design as the E-50 i had, you better pass on it

Why is that, Master?

Why?

No Line TBC, but I have made a mistake, the sample was made with a Diamond 500.

Here is a Sample Diamond 500 vs Hauppauge USB2 (No TBC in the capture chain)
Attachment 13981

and here is a sample from the Hauppauge USB2 with Blaupunkt RTV 950 TBC (aka Panasonic FS200) vs Hitachi & Panasonic DMR E55
Attachment 13980

and here 2 Panasonics DMR's: Hitachi with Panasonic DMR HS2 vs Hitachi & Panasonic DMR ES10
Attachment 13982

and the last sample with one of the last Sony/Pioneers dvd Recorders Sony RDR-HX680 vs the Canopus NX (both fail with these tape)
Attachment 13983

Thanks Bogilein for your reply!

Does not matter the card, we are comparing here a capture on a bad tape needing jitter correction with and without a lineTBC. Now is clear, and the result obvious.

This makes more sense. Both capture chains have the needed jitter correction. I assume Hitachi has not lineTBC (otherwise you are cumulating two jitter corrections). I see a more effective jitter correction done by the Panasonic DMR E55 compared to the Blaupunkt RTV 950, and maybe in addition a less sensitivitiy of the Panasonic DMR E55 capture circuitery to the "unstable" signal compared to the capture circuitery of the Hauppauge. From the "quality" of the capture not considering the "timing" issues I see the same level of details, maybe a more natural color tone in the Hauppauge. Some more noise on the Panasonic DMR E55 also in the closeup of the guitar and the hand playing. Both captures suffer of some halos, but it may be embedded in the source.

Am I wrong, or the quality of the TBC correction is very similar between the two? In term of capture quality, is difficult to find a winner.

Sony TBC corrections seems sligtly better, but not as good as the previous machines. In term of capture, I definitevly prefer the Canopus NX.
Do you think that using a VCR with lineTBC or adding a Panasonic DVR jitter correction before the Canopus NX will improve its capture or do you think that it will generate some problem? (I remember that Canopus NX has some internal TBC feature, that may be will not tolerate additional components in the chain)

Thanks a lot for all this samples, seeing in parallel all this material and comparisons is very instructive! And let me know if you share my impressions, judging on a compressed small mp4 is not easy...

Amongst other bad things that i recall:
wrong video levels, tbc ok but not extraodinary, 704x480,576 recordings instead of the more common 720x480,576, old school OS menu

You better put your money on a Sony RDR HXD 870 -> 1070 (or anything in between)

This is the problem when manufacturers recycle model numbers. There are infinite letter and number combos to be had, so seriously, WTF?

The Panasonic DMR-E50 is apparently such an item.

The first Panasonic DVD recorders, the E series, had many flaws, and no TBCs of any kind (weak or strong). And yet, in some European countries, it's being reported that an E50 (and now E55?) is good. Maybe. Those reports are mixed, which is common with shared model numbers (or production changes). Or with low-end gear, mixed comments are just clueless vs. not clueless -- but I don't think that's the issue here.

Bogilein and I disagree on things, but I don't think he's blind to quality. We may not have the same definitions and expectations of TBCs, however. Not sure.

For now, I'll continue to discourage the use of E series. I don't like wishy-washy maybe/maybe-not nature of variable gear, and potentially bad recommendations that always ensue. I want to provide known quality video solutions, not encourage video gear gambling.

I have several good clips of this errors, but will (1st) have to find those, and (2nd) need some free time.

I'll circle back to you on this at some point. :)

The recording on the video cassette is a ... generation recording. Played from a Hitachi SVHS Recorder without a line TBC. The first TBC in the recording chain is important, and in this case it is the DVD recorder, otherwise it would not be able to demonstrate its special capabilities.

The samples from the Hauppauge & Diamond were intended to show why a TBC(...ish) is needed for capturing. Since many people don't seem to know what a DVD recorder does in pass-through mode.
The Hauppauge USB2 and the Diamond 500 are often recommended. Without TBC in whatever form, it won't work.

It is always claimed that only the two Pansonic DMR ES10, ES15 have this special function for capturing analogue devices. The HS2 & E55 are older than the ES10, ES15.

It was only a small section of the recording, but the Blaupunkt/Panasonic SVHS VCR with TBC isn't the best choice for this recording.
I would have to do a test with a JVC SVHS VCR (with line TBC) & external frame TBC. I seem to remember that the result was not satisfactory either.

You can't compare the recordings directly because I used different capture cards (Canopus NX, Terratec AV Grabster 350, Pinnacle 500 USB) and therefore the levels are different depending on how they were set when I recorded. I corrected them slightly to push them into the safe range between 16-235. But this had no effect on the jitter correction.
If you want to make a proper comparison of different DVD recorders, all the recordings should be made with the same player and the same capture card. Probably best with one of the Ati AIWs, then the Lord would also be satisfied. Maybe I will find the time to do something like that.

It is best to switch off the line TBC of the video recorder when using the Canopus NX. If you have very bad recordings, like here, you have to use a DVD recorder that has better jitter correction.
However, it is the only capture card I know of that you can record without line TBC VCR and/or external frame TBC with satisfactory/good results without sync problems with the audio part and satisfactory jitter correction.

You should take a look at the example with the Sony RDR HX680.

Some comments on the Sony RDR HX680. This is one of the successor models to the Sony RDR HX870 mentioned by themaster1. Nothing has changed there. I can also upload an example with the Sony 870 (which I also own). But it has the same result as the 680 or the identical Pioneer DVD recorders.

The Sony/Pioneer also only output the signal via the analogue outputs in 720x480/576i. You would have to use the HDMI output to record in 720x576i/480i. The video levels do not change whether I use the Panasonic HS2, E55, ES10, ES15, EH495, EX77.
Whether the TBC(ish) of the Sony is now better than that of the Panasonic is something everyone should make up their own mind about.
Old school OS menu really shouldn't matter now for a device that you just pass the signal through.

In my opinion, anyone who seriously wants to capture should have a DVD-Recorder as an alternative. It doesn't matter whether he uses an SVHS with line TBC and/or external frame TBC.

What is always forgotten with all the recommendations about which hardware to use is that you should choose the hardware according to the source.

With this tape, it is a DVD recorder that delivers the best result. For the next tape, maybe a line TBC VCR with external frame TBC or the Canopus NX or another DVD recorder, let's see....

Update because I see the Lord has comment something during the time I wrote.

Perhaps I should add that all my tests were done with PAL equipment. As you can read from the reports of experienced users here and on videohelp, there are differences between PAL and NTSC devices. Not only because of the Scart connector. But this is often mixed up when talking about the corresponding hardware.
Those who claim that the E55 & HS2 do not have jitter correction like the line TBCs of various vcr's devices should perhaps put on their glasses.
This was only one test. In order to have an exact overview, other test tapes would of course have to be used.
But I am also sure that I have various cassettes with which I can your recommended devices bring to their knees.

There should be a discussion about what a TBC should actually do. I'm sure I don't know all the errors that may occur at some point during the capturing process.

i did most of my tests in ntsc for the E55 (despite i'm in france and dealling with pal/secam).
I'm telling you the E55 is a flop 10$ garbage equipment period

The sony rdr hxd series has more options like proc amps, slicker menu hdmi/component out, 15mbps mpeg2 recordings on hdd etc...

I agree. You know I love Hauppauge USB Live-2, but it needs tapes in good shape AND a S-VHS with line TBC, or a high-end VCR without lineTBC and a DVD recorder in pass-through mode. (on the other hand lordsmurf always says S-VHS with lineTBC and frameTBC in the chain, to be able to face any problematic tape, so you and him agree!)

I was also considering to add a Canopux NX to my material (msgohan/brad user had one for sale) after checking his captures on videhelp forum and reading the positive reviews on the doom9 german forum, but its contraints scared me a little: Edius required, disable S-VHS lineTBC, uncompressed capture format, capture splitted through several files...

When talking about restoration, I always suggest to do a lot of experiments on own videos and never blindly follow a general guideline.

For the capture hardware it should be the same, as you suggest, but the problem is that not everybody own a lot of material like you and lordsmurf and other respectable users. That's why we need advices, and samples!, from the capture experts (you, lordsmurf, msgohan, latreche34, ...), and that's why I say thanks for sharing!

Eh... :wait:

There's a general baseline for restoring certain formats, in regards to removing the reparable flaws of the format. For example, all VHS has chroma issues, be it bleed/offset, noise, or both. So cNR (chroma NR, remove red/blue misty muck), probably some offset/bleed fixes. Usually light NR/degrain. Masking the overscan (head-switching, etc). VHS audio generally has some % of hiss.

But after those minimums, it skews in many directions. Or not at all, the tape has minimal issues.

And that's just the Avisynth/VirtualDub restoring, not the baseline hardware (aka TBCs).

I think it's wise to have a basic level of corrections, it's fun to experiment (I've personally had some extraordinary results), and sometimes changing the order of operations for certain tapes helps.

Nothing wrong with experimenting, but there are some things which are baseline restoration points as LordSmurf has pointed out.

Yes, I agree with both of you, my statement was not clear!

A basic guideline is required at the beginning, to understand what to do. I personally followed sanlyn here and jagabo on videohelp to learn at the beginning.

But I have seen over the years many users blindly applying filters on their videos, and the results were not good.

There are so many AviSynth filters, in various order to be placed because they interfere each other, and each of them has so many parameters that you have to experiment on your own videos.
While my first restoration attempts were not so bad, it took me a lot of time to fine tuning the scripts to my videos, and I tried all (yes, all) of the available spatial, temporal and spatial/temporal denoisers and all (yes, all) of the available sharpener. And for each of them several runs with different parameters.

Now the next frontier is the large set of AI models in VapourSynth (Selur is doing a remarkable effort to introduce them in Hybrid, an excellent piece of software that I do not use), and I hope they will be available in AviSynth as well. Again, lot of experimentation is required!

Ah that does happen in web chats, fair play.

I lean more toward GUI tools, although I do use Hybrid and find it a wonderful piece of software and I use it many times a day.

They're all "tools in the box" so to speak.

Interesting answer, especially since you only tested the Panasonic E50. Now, does your opinion apply to all Panasonic DMR's (including ES10, ES15) or only specifically to the E50?

Did you do your tests with NTSC cassettes with a real NTSC video recorder or are we talking about PAL-60?

I don't see any advantage of the Sony here because of the menu or the possibility to create a 15mbps mpg2 file if I only want to use the device as a passthrough. The only advantage here would be the ProcAmp features. Unfortunately it fails with this cassette in the jitter correction.

The JVC's video recorders with TBC so praised by the Lord fail here also on whole line.I have tested an JVC HR-S7600, HR-S8960, Philips 1500 (JVC HR-S 8600/9600). An external TBC could also do nothing more.

Here again a comparison of a JVC HR-S7600 with a Panasonic HS860. Both with switched on TBC.
Attachment 14011

Here is a comparison of a Panasonic HS2 vs Panasonic HS860(TBCon).
Attachment 14012